Patchface Project

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 1/27/2012 at 2:25 PM, Czahkiswashi said:

[The Flames] “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

Hi! I've been reading the forums a lot lately, but this is my first time posting!

My first reaction to this "prophecy" was that it may be similar to Morqorro's prophecy to Tyrion. I think it is a metaphor in which the "flame" represents a person with Targaryen blood. I thought that the flame burning black might represent a Blackfyre, but was coming up with nothing for a blue or green flame. Then I remembered Aegon (or fAegon, whatever) and how he dyed his hair blue in order to conceal his Targaryen/ Blackfyre heritage. That could make him a blue dragon, or in this analogy, a blue flame. Just as a flame normally burns red, Targaryens usually have white blonde hair. But this flame is burning blue, and this Targ descendent has blue hair.

Following this metaphor, Jon would be the flame burning black because his Targ heritage was masked by his black, Stark hair. When you think about it, it's very lucky for Jon that he took after his mother so much. If hadn't been born with black hair and had gotten Rhaegar's hair instead, Ned would never have been able to pass him off as his son. It's interesting to wonder what Ned would have done. Send him over the Narrow Sea to live in exile? Would Jon have grown up with Aunt Daenerys? Or would Ned have left him at Starfall to try to pass Jon off as a Dayne, who sometimes have Targaryen features. Jon Snow's whole identity as we know it really depended on his black hair (as ridiculous as that may seem).

Which leaves us with the flame burning green, or someone with Targ heritage who has dyed their hair green to conceal their identity. And this is where I started to get excited and my theory actually started to get interesting.. Because as of yet, we only know one character who has green hair and she just so happens be around Jon's age and be named after someone who has been tied up with the Tower of Joy and the Mystery of Starfall all along. Wylla Manderly

 Wylla Manderly's name alone made her a subject of interest to me when she first appeared. Her green hair made her unique but I didn't think it was significant until now. Her name seems to be a family name. The Manderly's appear to use Wy names, the same way that the Lannisters us Ty names and the Targs use Ae names. But I think there maybe more to it than that.

In Westeros, there seems to be two explanations for Jon Snow's mother. The "official" version is that Ned fathered Jon on a woman named Wylla who was a wet nurse at Starfall. This is what Ned tells Robert and Ned Dayne confirms that this is also the story that he was told growing up at Starfall. The rumor however, is that Ned got Ashara Dayne, the Lady of Starfall, pregnant and that she is the mother of Jon. However in Dance we heard a third rumor via Ser Godric of the Sisters, that Jon Snow's mother was actually a fisher woman from the Sisters. This development really confused me. Ser Godric isn't the most reliable informant - he pushes false info and rumors onto Davos several times during their short conversation. But he mentions Jon Snow by name, so this has to be coming from somewhere. I think that Wylla the Wet Nurse has some connection to the Sisters, White Harbor and the Manderlys. Maybe she's a Manderly bastard, and grew up in the Sisters. But I think she traveled part of the way back to Winterfell with Ned in order to keep nursing Jon, before returning to Starfall, thus inspiring Ser Godric's story. So basically, though I'm not sure of the specifics, I think the fisher woman rumor is inspired by Wylla, so I'm not including the fisher woman in discussions about Jon's mother.

Which brings us back to Ashara and Wylla the Wet Nurse. Now clearly, most people believe R+L=J by now, so we know that neither of these women is actually Jon's mother. Ashara, if Barristan Selmy is to be believed, did have a child with a Stark though, probably Brandon. Ser Barristan says that this child was a stillborn girl. But Wylla the Wet Nurse had to have been pregnant and given birth around this time too. Otherwise, they would never have been able to convince people that she was Jon's mother. I don't think anyone would have believed Ned's story if Wylla hadn't been pregnant in the first place.

So that gives us three women, Ashara, Wylla and Lyanna, who were all pregnant at the same time, and whose babies were all likely at Starfall when they were all just a few days old. Lyanna had Jon Snow, Ashara may have had a stillborn girl and we know nothing about Wylla's baby except that their probably was one. So what happened to these babies, and how did all these women get pregnant at the same time? I'm going to guess that the relationships that led to their pregnancies all started at the tourney of Harenhal, which was pretty much the Woodstock of Westeros. So what happened? It's impossible to know for sure, but here is my theory:

Barristan Selmy seems to indicate that Brandon Stark impregnated Ashara, but I think it was actually Wylla, who I believe was a lower born friend/ ladies' maid to Ashara, similar to Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel's relationship to Sansa (she could only have become a wet nurse after her pregnancy, so she probably had a different position before and I'm guessing Lady's maid.) As such, she would have been present with at Harenhal and met Brandon Stark, where she began a relationship with him that would lead to her pregnancy. So far, there isn't much textual evidence to back this up, but it makes sense. It's in line with Brandon's character and Wylla, as being relatively low born, might have been enamored by Brandon Stark of Winterfell. It would also explain how the rumors about a Stark impregnating a woman of Starfall got started.

Ashara, I believe was actually impreganted by Aerys Targaryen. First of all, we know it is in line with Aerys' character, based off Ser Barristan's stories about Aery's treatment of Rhaella and Joanna Lannister. However, it also helps explain one of the most inexplicable parts of the mystery of Starfall, which is why the Dayne's like Ned. When you think about it, they should have hated him and all the Starks. The Daynes were Targ loyalists, the Starks were rebelling. Brandon or Ned supposedly got Ashara pregnant out of wedlock and then Ned killed Arthur. Why would they talk about Ned with respect and why would they name Edric after him? 

I believe for two reasons. The first is that when Ashara got pregnant with Aerys' bastard, Ned offered to protect her and the baby, rather than turning them over to Robert. The other reason is that the Daynes wanted Arthur dead and Dawn returned to him. Here's why:

We learn in Barristan's POV chapter that the kingsguard were forced to stand by and do nothing when Aerys raped Rhaella and assaulted Joanna, even when they wanted to intervene. As Elia's companion, Ashara would have been around Aerys all the time. I think that Arthur stood aside and did nothing while Aerys raped his sister, choosing loyalty to the King over Ashara. When Ashara became pregnant she was forced to return to Starfall and told her parents what had happened. They disowned Arthur and decided he wasn't worthy of Dawn. Enter Ned Stark, who promises to protect Ashara and her baby and avenge her honor by killing Arthur and returning Dawn, thus winning the gratitude of house Dayne. It also helps explain Ashara's suicide. In addition to PTSD and possibly post partum depression, she may have regretted Arthur's death, blaming herself.

Which leaves Ned with three illegitimate babies at Starfall that he somehow has to hide and protect. Jon is the priority. He's in the most danger from Robert, who would likely view him as the product of rape and as the person who killed Lyanna, wanting him dead. So Wylla agrees to pose as Jon's mother, protecting the boy that is Brandon's nephew and the cousin to her own child. Which means they have to send Wylla's real baby away, so that no one will discover Jon's secret. This child, who I believe is the doughter of Wylla and Brandon, goes with Howland Reed to the neck and is raised as his daughter, by the name Meera. Finally that leaves Ashara's baby. A girl who was not stillborn, but born with that signature Targ silver hair, who Ashara named after her friend Wylla.

How do I know she was friends with Wylla? I don't for sure, but it fits. Brandon, the father of Wylla's child was just murdered by Aerys meaning that Wylla was probably very sad and hated him almost as much as Ashara. Both girls would have been pregnant at the same time, in the same castle, in the middle of a war, scared and alone. I think they would have bonded and relied on each other. Also, as I said before, its possible that they grew up together, making their friendship even more solid. 

So anyway, Ashara names the baby after her best friend before she kills herself. So the question is, how does baby Wylla end up at White Harbor? We can't know for sure but if Wylla the Wet Nurse really did have a connection to the Manderlys, she may have suggested to Ned that the baby would be safe there. Also, they were Ned's bannermen and very loyal to House Stark, which may have made Ned trust them. Plus, we know that Wyman likes conspiracies and that he is very good at keeping secrets. So Ned goes to White Harbor and leaves the baby Wylla with Wyman and his wife to pose as their younger daughter. When she gets older and her white blonde Tag hair starts coming in, they dye it Manderly green to conceal her identity.

 

So to sum up, I believe the flame burning green and blue and black refers to three people with Targ blood who conceal it through their hair color. Jon Snow, the bastard born of Lyanna and Rhaegar, whose black hair helped hide his identity. Aegon, who may be the son of Rhaegar and Elia or may be a Blackfyre descendent who dyed his hair blue to conceal his identity. And Wylla Manderly, the bastard daughter of Ashara Dayne and King Aerys, whose hair is dyed green to conceal her identity. The line about the smoke in bubbles may be a references to the phrase "Where there is smoke there is a fire". I believe it showing that by containing (bubbles) the rumors (smoke), the fire ( these children of Targ descent) have gone undiscovered.

I don't think that Wylla's Targ heritage will make her significant to some of the big parts of the plot, like the identity of the three heads of the dragon. Robert Baratheon had lots of bastards, such as Gendry, Mya Stone and Edric Storm. It seems pretty common for nobles/royalty to father many bastards and I don't think every person with Targ blood is some prophesied figure. I think the point is just that House Targaryen isn't as dead as we've been told and what happened at Starfall is much more complex than anyone in Westeros realized. (Also, Aerys was evil). 

 

Thanks so much for reading this! I'd love to hear feed back, even criticisms, so that I can refine and strengthen my theory. Like I said it is my first one, so I'm sure it could use some work! 

[Guilherme Rubira]

Your theory deserves to be known by more peaple, nice effort!

Nobody talks about this very suspicious green hair lady...

That said, I'm not on board because I believe H + A = J + M
 

[Guilherme Rubira]

On 2017-5-24 at 4:05 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

So to sum up, I believe the flame burning green and blue and black refers to three people with Targ blood who conceal it through their hair color. Jon Snow, the bastard born of Lyanna and Rhaegar, whose black hair helped hide his identity. Aegon, who may be the son of Rhaegar and Elia or may be a Blackfyre descendent who dyed his hair blue to conceal his identity. And Wylla Manderly, the bastard daughter of Ashara Dayne and King Aerys, whose hair is dyed green to conceal her identity. The line about the smoke in bubbles may be a references to the phrase "Where there is smoke there is a fire". I believe it showing that by containing (bubbles) the rumors (smoke), the fire ( these children of Targ descent) have gone undiscovered.

 

Maybe it makes more sense if Aerys impregnated Wylla at Harrenhal, making this green hair Manderly a targ bastard.

We know for a fact the she was pregnant around the same time as Lyanna and Ashara, and nobody knows the father or the child, so it fits.

In this scenario:

L + R = J

H + A = M + J

A + W = W

 

[Rhae_Valarie]

@Guilherme Rubira

Thanks so much for the feedback. I'm actually considering starting a thread for this theory, since it goes beyond Patchface's prophecy, but I wanted to hear some opinions on this post first.

I agree with you that Wylla Manderly could actually be the daughter of Aerys and Wylla, instead of Ashara. When formulating my theory I was really split between the two possibilities. In the end I went with Ashara because it helped explain the weird relationship between Ned and The Daynes that otherwise seems unexplainable, so far. Also, if they went to so much trouble to hide the baby's identity, name her after her real mother is kind of a giveaway. It would be like Cersei naming one of her children after Jaime. It just seems to obvious. However, I still think it is possible. Maybe Wylla wanted her daughter to have a connection to the mother she would never know and Ned allowed it because it sounded like a Manderly name anyway?

I also don't think Meera is necessarily the daughter of Brandon and Wylla or even Brandon and Ashara. She could be exactly who we are told she is. In that case, I would guess that Brandon's bastard was the stillborn girl we learn about from Barristan Selmy. Either she was born to Ashara, as Selmy believes, or she was born to Wylla. It could work to explain why Wylla was able to assume the identity of Jon's mother. If her own child was stillborn, it makes the cover story very plausible. 

So basically, here's my rundown of the possibilities:

R+L=J

A+A= WM

B+W= M or Stillborn Girl, n which case Meera is who she says she is.

or:

R+L=J

A+W= W

B+A= Stillborn Girl

(I suppose it is still possible that Meera is Brandon and Ashara's daughter, but considering she looks nothing like either of them I think it is very unlikely. I only think it is possible when Wylla is the mother, because we don't know what she looks like. Even then though, it is just as likely that Meera really is Howland's trueborn daughter).

I think it will be much easier to piece together the children of Starfall once Winds is released. Right now there just isn't a lot of evidence, it is just pure speculation!

Once again, thanks for reading and commenting. It's so exciting to have shared and discussed this with someone!

[ravenous reader]

'Under the sea, the merwives wear nennymoans and weave gowns of silver seaweed...'

Any ideas?!  

[Rhae_Valarie]

12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

'Under the sea, the merwives wear nennymoans and weave gowns of silver seaweed...'

Any ideas?!  

The best explanation that I've seen for this one is that it refers to Sansa at the Purple Wedding.

Nennymoans seems to be another word for anemone, and sea anemones are poisonous. Sansa's gown at the Purple Wedding was silver and she wore the poison, or the anemone, in her hair as a hairnet. Also, she was married at this point qualifying her as a merwife. The Ghost of High Heart makes a similar statement about a maiden with venomous serpents in her hair, dripping venom. 

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

The best explanation that I've seen for this one is that it refers to Sansa at the Purple Wedding.

Nennymoans seems to be another word for anemone, and sea anemones are poisonous. Sansa's gown at the Purple Wedding was silver and she wore the poison, or the anemone, in her hair as a hairnet. Also, she was married at this point qualifying her as a merwife. The Ghost of High Heart makes a similar statement about a maiden with venomous serpents in her hair, dripping venom. 

Why is she 'under the sea'?  And is Tyrion a 'merman'?

[Rhae_Valarie]

Interesting questions. I think the 'under the sea' part depends on how you view Patchface. Some think he is being is a servant of the Drowned God. If so, in his addled mind, everything he sees may appear to be taking place "under the sea", since he is being shown by the sea god. That alone would make the people in his visions seem like merpeople, since they live in his visions or "under the sea". Also, it could be that he received his prophetic abilities while lost at sea, and so he believes that all of his visions of Westeros' future were happening to people living in the ocean. Honestly, I think Patchface is going to be very important moving forward and what we learn could fully explain his prophecies. Is he self aware, or is he a puppet for the Drowned God? Or do his prophetic abilities come from somewhere else entirely?

However it is very interesting to consider Tyrion as a merman. After all, he is considered the "half-man" which may make him a merman to Patchface, and Sansa his merwife.

[Rhae_Valarie]

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Why is she 'under the sea'?  And is Tyrion a 'merman'?

 

 

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Interesting questions. I think the 'under the sea' part depends on how you view Patchface. Some think he is being is a servant of the Drowned God. If so, in his addled mind, everything he sees may appear to be taking place "under the sea", since he is being shown by the sea god. That alone would make the people in his visions seem like merpeople, since they live in his visions or "under the sea". Also, it could be that he received his prophetic abilities while lost at sea, and so he believes that all of his visions of Westeros' future were happening to people living in the ocean. Honestly, I think Patchface is going to be very important moving forward and what we learn could fully explain his prophecies. Is he self aware, or is he a puppet for the Drowned God? Or do his prophetic abilities come from somewhere else entirely?

However it is very interesting to consider Tyrion as a merman. After all, he is considered the "half-man" which may make him a merman to Patchface, and Sansa his merwife.

For what it's worth, the white raven seems to rather ominously address Patchface as 'Lord'...or perhaps he's just mimicking the last word he heard...

Lord of what?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," the fool sang on, swinging his head and making his bells clang and clatter. Bong dong, ring-a-ling, bong dong.

"Lord," the white raven shrieked. "Lord, lord, lord."

"A fool sings what he will," the maester told his anxious princess. "You must not take his words to heart. On the morrow he may remember another song, and this one will never be heard again." He can sing prettily in four tongues, Lord Steffon had written . .

I love your observation of Tyrion the 'half man' as merman!  Bran is another I've identified as a merman or mermaid, having lost the use of his legs, so essentially stranded on land.

[Red Man Racey]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

'Under the sea, the merwives wear nennymoans and weave gowns of silver seaweed...'

Any ideas?!  

I posted a theory on this one a while back in a Patchface thread I started:

Here's my thoughts on this particular "prophecy":

Quote

I've seen the idea that "nennymoans" refers to anemones, I think this is probably correct. Sea anemones are often crown-shaped (a ring of tentacles around an oral disc) and are named after the anemone flower, the name is derived from Latin and/or Greek and means "daughter of the wind." The seaweed could be a reference to a tokar, the traditional garb of Ghiscari elites,  a "long, loose shapeless sheet" which is "wound around hips and under an arm and over a shoulder," seemingly the way someone would wrap seaweed around themselves. I think this quote might be a vision of Dany wearing a crown and a silver tokar.

To add to this, the phrase "daughter of the wind" would be very fitting for Dany since she was someone who was "blown" from place to place as if carried on the wind. It's additionally fitting since she is now a dragon rider and literally rides on the wind.

Edit:  It is also possible that in this vision Patchface is actually referring to multiple individuals (might be more likely since he makes a point to use the plural "merwives"). Perhaps he sees at least Sansa and Dany, who could both be said to wear "nennymoans" in their hair based on different interpretations of the passage. Are there any other women that could have some metaphorical link to "nennymoans" in their hair?

[ravenous reader]

11 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

Here's my thoughts on this particular "prophecy":

Quote

I've seen the idea that "nennymoans" refers to anemones, I think this is probably correct. Sea anemones are often crown-shaped (a ring of tentacles around an oral disc) and are named after the anemone flower, the name is derived from Latin and/or Greek and means "daughter of the wind." The seaweed could be a reference to a tokar, the traditional garb of Ghiscari elites,  a "long, loose shapeless sheet" which is "wound around hips and under an arm and over a shoulder," seemingly the way someone would wrap seaweed around themselves. I think this quote might be a vision of Dany wearing a crown and a silver tokar.

To add to this, the phrase "daughter of the wind" would be very fitting for Dany since she was someone who was "blown" from place to place as if carried on the wind. It's additionally fitting since she is now a dragon rider and literally rides on the wind.

That's nice.  Dany's first 'mount' was the silver, also compared to the wind.  Continuing the sea theme, Dany wants to dress herself in a gown of 'starlight and seafoam' (like the birth of Aphrodite) with flowers in her hair:

Quote

"What does Your Grace wish to wear?" asked Missandei.

Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowers every day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt." She always felt safer wrapped in Drogo's lionskin.

Daenerys received the captain on her terrace, seated on a carved stone bench beneath a pear tree. A half-moon floated in the sky above the city, attended by a thousand stars. Daario Naharis entered swaggering. He swaggers even when he is standing still. (ADWD -- Daenerys IV)

What do you think is meant by 'weaving' gowns of silver seaweed?  Significantly, the merwives in question are not only wearing gowns -- they are mainly 'weaving' them.  Also note the white lionskin as a kind of silverish gown-- that's a skinchanging allusion.

 

Quote

Edit:  It is also possible that in this vision Patchface is actually referring to multiple individuals (might be more likely since he makes a point to use the plural "merwives"). Perhaps he sees at least Sansa and Dany, who could both be said to wear "nennymoans" in their hair based on different interpretations of the passage. Are there any other women that could have some metaphorical link to "nennymoans" in their hair?

I think all of Patchface's riddles refer to a multiplicity of events and people traversing time.  Other options besides Sansa and Dany (by no means an exhaustive list):

 

-- Leaf, or the COTF in general; she wears withered flowers in her hair:

Quote

Her hair was a tangle of brown and red and gold, autumn colors, with vines and twigs and withered flowers woven through it.  (ADWD -- Bran II)

Leaf is directly compared to Arya; in fact, she's called 'the Arya thing' by Bran.  Like Leaf, Arya's hair is always tangled.  Additionally, there is a connection made between the Children and the Faceless Men, via the clever phrasing 'No one has eyes like that.'

 

-- Arya with a figurative 'bird's nest' in her hair:

Quote

He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest.   (ADWD -- Jon XIII)

 

-- Lyanna who is compared to Arya on more than one occasion, with her famous wreath of blue roses:

Quote

 "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.  (AGOT -- Eddard XIII)

The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.  (ACOK -- Theon V)

It's strongly suggested that wearing a crown can be a poisonous affair, and that in this case in particular the roses are tainted.  In his fever dreams, Ned pricks himself on the thorns hidden beneath the blue blooms (like being poisoned in the fairy tales, or whimsically-seen stung by a nennymoan!)

Quote

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.  (AGOT -- Eddard XV)

 

Here's another case of a crown consuming the wearer:

Quote

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ."

"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

"Everything," said Davos, softly.  (ASOS -- Davos V)

 

-- Shae who appears to Tyrion like a Queen of Winter in an evocative description, in the words of which one can recognise Patchface's riddle (this relation makes Tyrion by implication an AA/NK figure):

Quote

A half-moon silvered the leaves of the fruit trees and shone on the surface of the stone bathing pond. Tyrion seated himself beside the water. Somewhere off to his right a cricket was chirping, a curiously homey sound. It is peaceful here, he thought, but for how long?

A whiff of something rank made him turn his head. Shae stood in the door behind him, dressed in the silvery robe he'd given her. I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair. Behind her stood one of the begging brothers, a portly man in filthy patched robes, his bare feet crusty with dirt, a bowl hung about his neck on a leather thong where a septon would have worn a crystal. The smell of him would have gagged a rat.

"Lord Varys has come to see you," Shae announced.  (ACOK -- Tyrion X)

 

-- the original 'Night's Queen' (likely 'Nissa Nissa'):

Quote

 A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen... (ASOS -- Bran IV)

 

-- Alys Karstark, another 'Winter's Lady'

Quote

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

"Winter's lady." Jon squeezed her hand.  (ADWD -- Jon X)

 

-- Cersei, who is a cold queen with a gold crown (of hair!...'gold their crowns, gold their shrouds...'); she also has a hair net, vaguely reminiscent of Sansa's (a net like the nennymoan tentacular orifice is a trap) which she takes along with her when she goes to the White Sword Tower in order to seduce Jaime to renounce his vows and do her bidding.  Thus, nennymoans and the weaving aspect are associated with lies, enchantment, and entrapment :

Quote

 Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold …  (AGOT -- Eddard VII)

 

Is this the Cersei that Jaime sees? When she smiled, you saw how beautiful she was, truly. I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. He almost felt sorry for poisoning her.  (ACOK -- Tyrion VI)

 

Cersei Lannister's face seemed to float before him in the darkness. Her hair was full of sunlight, but there was mockery in her smile. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die," she whispered. Ned had played and lost, and his men had paid the price of his folly with their life's blood.  (AGOT -- Eddard XV)

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. "Were you alone when Robert said this?"

"You don't think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children." Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. "Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?"

It was meant as mockery, but she'd cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. "Not Myrcella. Joffrey."

...

"You great golden fool. He's lied to you a thousand times, and so have I." She bound up her hair again, and scooped up the hairnet from the bedpost where she'd hung it.

 (ASOS -- Jaime IX)

The 'nennymoan' equivalent in Cersei's case is more along the lines of the marine rather than the terrestrial anemone, with the 'sunlight in her hair' associated with the electrical discharge (lightning strike, poetically) of the marine anemone, analogous to the poison of the flower variety.  

Oh -- and when Bran catches the twins in flagrante delicto, GRRM emphasises that she is a 'moaning woman', even before Bran sees her face, which I've argued before is a nennymoan reference!

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

Inside the room, a man and a woman were wrestling. They were both naked. Bran could not tell who they were. The man's back was to him, and his body screened the woman from view as he pushed her up against a wall.

There were soft, wet sounds. Bran realized they were kissing. He watched, wide-eyed and frightened, his breath tight in his throat. The man had a hand down between her legs, and he must have been hurting her there, because the woman started to moan, low in her throat. "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it. Oh, please …" But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast.

Bran saw her face. Her eyes were closed and her mouth was open, moaning. Her golden hair swung from side to side as her head moved back and forth, but still he recognized the queen.

 

-- Jenny of Oldstones and Cat Stark:

Quote

"Oldstones, all the smallfolk called it when I was a girl, but no doubt it had some other name when it was still a hall of kings." She had camped here once with her father, on their way to Seagard. Petyr was with us too . . .

"There's a song," he remembered. "'Jenny of Oldstones, with the flowers in her hair.'"

"We're all just songs in the end. If we are lucky." She had played at being Jenny that day, had even wound flowers in her hair. And Petyr had pretended to be her Prince of Dragonflies. Catelyn could not have been more than twelve, Petyr just a boy. (ASOS -- Catelyn V)

What's the story with 'Jenny of Oldstones' and her song ('is there another...')?  The 'singing' in my opinion is yet another reference to the 'moaning' of the nennys...  

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

As far as I understand, only one of Patchface's prophecies has explicitly come true, the RW. And maybe about the dead dancing, too.

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 1/27/2012 at 2:25 PM, Czahkiswashi said:

“Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers," he said, clang-a-langing. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

I've seen many people interpret this as a reference to Dany's dragons. However a new thought just occurred to me. Many of the Starks seem to be very strongly connected to birds, as well as their wolves. Arya to water birds, Sansa to doves, Bran to ravens, Jon to crows. I was wondering why birds? If anything, for the Stark children, you would think the connection would be to fish and wolves, to reflect their Stark/Tully heritage. And then I remembered this line, basically equating birds and fish.  I think it could be a way of saying that the "birds" that Patchface sees in his prophetic visions (Arya the Swan, Sansa the Dove, Bran the Raven and Jon the Crow) all have scales instead of feathers because Arya, Sansa and Bran are all half fish (Tully) and Jon is half dragon (Targaryen).

Why would this be worthy of a prophecy? First of all, it reinforces R+L=J. Obviously Catelyn is not Jon's mother, so for him to be a bird with scales, one of his parents would have to have come from a family whose sigil had scales, like the Tully's. The Targaryen dragon surely qualifies. However, this prophecy could also mean that Patchface is seeing visions of the four Stark kids. Why? A prevailing theory is that he is the Drowned God's servant. If so, why are Stark kids important to the Drowned God? There are many possibilities. Jon seems to be a candidate for Azor Ahai, Bran is unlocking his greenseeing abilities, Arya is studying to become a Faceless Man. Sansa's importance is more of a wild card, but I've long suspected that she will be key to the endgame, so maybe this reinforces that she is just as important as her siblings/cousin, in her own unique way.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts! 

[Red Man Racey]

14 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As far as I understand, only one of Patchface's prophecies has explicitly come true, the RW. And maybe about the dead dancing, too.

The main issue is that we don't yet know what Patchface's "prophecies" necessarily mean. They could have come true and we just don't know it. The one about shadows is this:  "The shadows come to dance my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord..." This one seems to be pretty "on the nose" and not too subtle or complex (not that this is a bad thing, it's a good idea from GRRM to make at least a few of them easy to figure out so that readers start paying attention to all of them, including the more complex ones with more difficult interpretations).

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood.

-Description of an Other in Prologue of AGoT

 

Quote

The cold gods. The ones in the night. The white shadows.

-Gilly to Jon in ACoK

 

Quote

The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows ...

-Sam's thoughts in ASoS

 

Quote

They're never far, you know. They won't come out by day, not when that old sun's shining, but don't think that means they went away. Shadows never go away.

-Tormund to Jon in ADwD

 

Quote

Dance with me then.

-Waymar Royce to the Other that he faces in Prologue of AGoT

 

I think this prophecy (or whatever you want to call the ramblings of Patchface) has definitely come true. Like I said earlier, having a few "gimmes" mixed in with the rest informs readers that they should pay attention to all of Patchface's seemingly incoherent ramblings instead of just ignoring it as "flavor."

[Northern_Star]

On 5/25/2017 at 5:05 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

Hi! I've been reading the forums a lot lately, but this is my first time posting!

My first reaction to this "prophecy" was that it may be similar to Morqorro's prophecy to Tyrion. I think it is a metaphor in which the "flame" represents a person with Targaryen blood. I thought that the flame burning black might represent a Blackfyre, but was coming up with nothing for a blue or green flame. Then I remembered Aegon (or fAegon, whatever) and how he dyed his hair blue in order to conceal his Targaryen/ Blackfyre heritage. That could make him a blue dragon, or in this analogy, a blue flame. Just as a flame normally burns red, Targaryens usually have white blonde hair. But this flame is burning blue, and this Targ descendent has blue hair.

Following this metaphor, Jon would be the flame burning black because his Targ heritage was masked by his black, Stark hair. When you think about it, it's very lucky for Jon that he took after his mother so much. If hadn't been born with black hair and had gotten Rhaegar's hair instead, Ned would never have been able to pass him off as his son. It's interesting to wonder what Ned would have done. Send him over the Narrow Sea to live in exile? Would Jon have grown up with Aunt Daenerys? Or would Ned have left him at Starfall to try to pass Jon off as a Dayne, who sometimes have Targaryen features. Jon Snow's whole identity as we know it really depended on his black hair (as ridiculous as that may seem).

Which leaves us with the flame burning green, or someone with Targ heritage who has dyed their hair green to conceal their identity. And this is where I started to get excited and my theory actually started to get interesting.. Because as of yet, we only know one character who has green hair and she just so happens be around Jon's age and be named after someone who has been tied up with the Tower of Joy and the Mystery of Starfall all along. Wylla Manderly

 Wylla Manderly's name alone made her a subject of interest to me when she first appeared. Her green hair made her unique but I didn't think it was significant until now. Her name seems to be a family name. The Manderly's appear to use Wy names, the same way that the Lannisters us Ty names and the Targs use Ae names. But I think there maybe more to it than that.

In Westeros, there seems to be two explanations for Jon Snow's mother. The "official" version is that Ned fathered Jon on a woman named Wylla who was a wet nurse at Starfall. This is what Ned tells Robert and Ned Dayne confirms that this is also the story that he was told growing up at Starfall. The rumor however, is that Ned got Ashara Dayne, the Lady of Starfall, pregnant and that she is the mother of Jon. However in Dance we heard a third rumor via Ser Godric of the Sisters, that Jon Snow's mother was actually a fisher woman from the Sisters. This development really confused me. Ser Godric isn't the most reliable informant - he pushes false info and rumors onto Davos several times during their short conversation. But he mentions Jon Snow by name, so this has to be coming from somewhere. I think that Wylla the Wet Nurse has some connection to the Sisters, White Harbor and the Manderlys. Maybe she's a Manderly bastard, and grew up in the Sisters. But I think she traveled part of the way back to Winterfell with Ned in order to keep nursing Jon, before returning to Starfall, thus inspiring Ser Godric's story. So basically, though I'm not sure of the specifics, I think the fisher woman rumor is inspired by Wylla, so I'm not including the fisher woman in discussions about Jon's mother.

Which brings us back to Ashara and Wylla the Wet Nurse. Now clearly, most people believe R+L=J by now, so we know that neither of these women is actually Jon's mother. Ashara, if Barristan Selmy is to be believed, did have a child with a Stark though, probably Brandon. Ser Barristan says that this child was a stillborn girl. But Wylla the Wet Nurse had to have been pregnant and given birth around this time too. Otherwise, they would never have been able to convince people that she was Jon's mother. I don't think anyone would have believed Ned's story if Wylla hadn't been pregnant in the first place.

So that gives us three women, Ashara, Wylla and Lyanna, who were all pregnant at the same time, and whose babies were all likely at Starfall when they were all just a few days old. Lyanna had Jon Snow, Ashara may have had a stillborn girl and we know nothing about Wylla's baby except that their probably was one. So what happened to these babies, and how did all these women get pregnant at the same time? I'm going to guess that the relationships that led to their pregnancies all started at the tourney of Harenhal, which was pretty much the Woodstock of Westeros. So what happened? It's impossible to know for sure, but here is my theory:

Barristan Selmy seems to indicate that Brandon Stark impregnated Ashara, but I think it was actually Wylla, who I believe was a lower born friend/ ladies' maid to Ashara, similar to Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel's relationship to Sansa (she could only have become a wet nurse after her pregnancy, so she probably had a different position before and I'm guessing Lady's maid.) As such, she would have been present with at Harenhal and met Brandon Stark, where she began a relationship with him that would lead to her pregnancy. So far, there isn't much textual evidence to back this up, but it makes sense. It's in line with Brandon's character and Wylla, as being relatively low born, might have been enamored by Brandon Stark of Winterfell. It would also explain how the rumors about a Stark impregnating a woman of Starfall got started.

Ashara, I believe was actually impreganted by Aerys Targaryen. First of all, we know it is in line with Aerys' character, based off Ser Barristan's stories about Aery's treatment of Rhaella and Joanna Lannister. However, it also helps explain one of the most inexplicable parts of the mystery of Starfall, which is why the Dayne's like Ned. When you think about it, they should have hated him and all the Starks. The Daynes were Targ loyalists, the Starks were rebelling. Brandon or Ned supposedly got Ashara pregnant out of wedlock and then Ned killed Arthur. Why would they talk about Ned with respect and why would they name Edric after him? 

I believe for two reasons. The first is that when Ashara got pregnant with Aerys' bastard, Ned offered to protect her and the baby, rather than turning them over to Robert. The other reason is that the Daynes wanted Arthur dead and Dawn returned to him. Here's why:

We learn in Barristan's POV chapter that the kingsguard were forced to stand by and do nothing when Aerys raped Rhaella and assaulted Joanna, even when they wanted to intervene. As Elia's companion, Ashara would have been around Aerys all the time. I think that Arthur stood aside and did nothing while Aerys raped his sister, choosing loyalty to the King over Ashara. When Ashara became pregnant she was forced to return to Starfall and told her parents what had happened. They disowned Arthur and decided he wasn't worthy of Dawn. Enter Ned Stark, who promises to protect Ashara and her baby and avenge her honor by killing Arthur and returning Dawn, thus winning the gratitude of house Dayne. It also helps explain Ashara's suicide. In addition to PTSD and possibly post partum depression, she may have regretted Arthur's death, blaming herself.

Which leaves Ned with three illegitimate babies at Starfall that he somehow has to hide and protect. Jon is the priority. He's in the most danger from Robert, who would likely view him as the product of rape and as the person who killed Lyanna, wanting him dead. So Wylla agrees to pose as Jon's mother, protecting the boy that is Brandon's nephew and the cousin to her own child. Which means they have to send Wylla's real baby away, so that no one will discover Jon's secret. This child, who I believe is the doughter of Wylla and Brandon, goes with Howland Reed to the neck and is raised as his daughter, by the name Meera. Finally that leaves Ashara's baby. A girl who was not stillborn, but born with that signature Targ silver hair, who Ashara named after her friend Wylla.

How do I know she was friends with Wylla? I don't for sure, but it fits. Brandon, the father of Wylla's child was just murdered by Aerys meaning that Wylla was probably very sad and hated him almost as much as Ashara. Both girls would have been pregnant at the same time, in the same castle, in the middle of a war, scared and alone. I think they would have bonded and relied on each other. Also, as I said before, its possible that they grew up together, making their friendship even more solid. 

So anyway, Ashara names the baby after her best friend before she kills herself. So the question is, how does baby Wylla end up at White Harbor? We can't know for sure but if Wylla the Wet Nurse really did have a connection to the Manderlys, she may have suggested to Ned that the baby would be safe there. Also, they were Ned's bannermen and very loyal to House Stark, which may have made Ned trust them. Plus, we know that Wyman likes conspiracies and that he is very good at keeping secrets. So Ned goes to White Harbor and leaves the baby Wylla with Wyman and his wife to pose as their younger daughter. When she gets older and her white blonde Tag hair starts coming in, they dye it Manderly green to conceal her identity.

 

So to sum up, I believe the flame burning green and blue and black refers to three people with Targ blood who conceal it through their hair color. Jon Snow, the bastard born of Lyanna and Rhaegar, whose black hair helped hide his identity. Aegon, who may be the son of Rhaegar and Elia or may be a Blackfyre descendent who dyed his hair blue to conceal his identity. And Wylla Manderly, the bastard daughter of Ashara Dayne and King Aerys, whose hair is dyed green to conceal her identity. The line about the smoke in bubbles may be a references to the phrase "Where there is smoke there is a fire". I believe it showing that by containing (bubbles) the rumors (smoke), the fire ( these children of Targ descent) have gone undiscovered.

I don't think that Wylla's Targ heritage will make her significant to some of the big parts of the plot, like the identity of the three heads of the dragon. Robert Baratheon had lots of bastards, such as Gendry, Mya Stone and Edric Storm. It seems pretty common for nobles/royalty to father many bastards and I don't think every person with Targ blood is some prophesied figure. I think the point is just that House Targaryen isn't as dead as we've been told and what happened at Starfall is much more complex than anyone in Westeros realized. (Also, Aerys was evil). 

 

Thanks so much for reading this! I'd love to hear feed back, even criticisms, so that I can refine and strengthen my theory. Like I said it is my first one, so I'm sure it could use some work! 

THIS IS TOO GOOD, THIS SHOULD HAVE ITS OWN THREAD.!!! 

 

 

On a side note:

Patchfaces "under sea" referring to death is the obvious. However i believe that the author choose those words to: 

refers to the "not visible to the reader"  the not foreseeable - therefore it refers to foreshadowing  

 

Under sea - below the see - in between the lines - the not visible.

 

Pretty much rubbing our noses in it!

[Corvo the Crow]

5 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

Shadows and dance.

 

Here are two quotes from ADWD Jon chapters, X and XII.

An additional information, "anon" is used only three times in the whole saga.

Quote

When Owen the Oaf began to dance with Patchface the fool, laughter echoed off the vaulted ceiling. The sight made Lady Alys smile. "Do you dance often, here at Castle Black?"

"Every time we have a wedding, my lady."

"You could dance with me, you know. It would be only courteous. You danced with me anon."

"Anon?" teased Jon. "When we were children." She tore off a bit of bread and threw it at him. "As you know well."

Jon danced with her then. Also I doubt it is relevant but Jon finally knows something well

Quote

On and on the wildlings came. The day grew darker, just as Tormund said. Clouds covered the sky from horizon to horizon, and warmth fled. There was more shoving at the gate, as men and goats and bullocks jostled each other out of the way. It is more than impatience, Jon realized. They are afraid. Warriors, spearwives, raiders, they are frightened of those woods, of shadows moving through the trees. They want to put the Wall between them before the night descends.

 

A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You’ll dance with me anon.

 

WWs are mentioned as shadows again.

A snowflake danced. Then "an other"? Dance with me, Jon Snow he thought.

 You'll "dance with me then"? As it was with Waymar Royce and the WW?

 

A shadow will come to dance? Jon Snow will dance then with an other?

 

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," the fool sang on, swinging his head and making his bells clang and clatter. Bong dong, ring-a-ling, bong dong.

"Lord," the white raven shrieked. "Lord, lord, lord."

 

Can't quote a post if editing? Anyway

 

Quote

Shireen gave a cry of delight. Even Cressen had to admit the bird made an impressive sight, white as snow and larger than any hawk, with the bright black eyes that meant it was no mere albino but a truebred white raven of the citadel.

ACOK Prologue. A "snow" white raven of the citadel, if it's of any relevance.

Could the "Lord" Patchface is referring to be the Lord Commander? And the Lord the white raven shrieks Lord Snow? Both of them would be the same person after ADWD, Lord Commander Jon Snow. The piece above and this support each other well enough.

Shadows come to dance with Lord Snow, they'll dance with him then.

[Guilherme Rubira]

19 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

I think it could be a way of saying that the "birds" that Patchface sees in his prophetic visions (Arya the Swan, Sansa the Dove, Bran the Raven and Jon the Crow) all have scales instead of feathers because Arya, Sansa and Bran are all half fish (Tully) and Jon is half dragon (Targaryen).

Makes sense.
Prophecies can have mutiple interpretations...