Sliver of hope that Syrio is alive?

[FanTasy]

Syrio = Jaqen = The Alchemist = Daario Naharis

Interesting. I would love to read arguments and textual references for this.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Joff wouldn't have pointed it out because he didn't know who Syrio was. Neither did Sansa. But we do, and so although there was no need for any dialogue, his head should have been there, next to Septa Mordane's, in the show, if GRRM really wanted us to stop wondering. And in the books, I think Arya might have noticed if his head was up there

Joff only pointed out 2 heads. Her father's and Septa's. Her father for obvious reasons and her Septa's because Joffrey knew her Septa, she was with Sansa at Winterfell a lot of the time, she was next to Sansa at the Tourney and the Tourney feast. In fact I would say most times Joffrey came for Sansa the Septa was there, he made a point of pointing out her head as she had been close to Sansa (whether Sansa liked her or not) and he himself had known her. He didn't decide to point out every member of her household.

I don't mind the Syrio is alive speculation though I think he would have shown up already if it was true. I am annoyed by the people who say claim he is a FM. It's quite clear in the books that his philosophy is opposite to FM's and I think you'd be small minded if you thought in a city as colourful as Bravos that everyone had the same beliefs and worshiped the same gods. Syrio and the Bravosi military by implication seem to be a completely opposite faction to FM.

Syrio has been in Arya's thoughts since his sacrifice and I think part of the reason she went to Bravos and not Eastwatch. I'm hoping she'll discover the FM's inner dealings and beliefs and realise it's not right and I think Syrio's teachings will be fundamental in this. This is a greater role than he could play alive. Perhaps she'll free Bravos from a tyranny that seems to grip the city from the shadows (see the fear in the ship captain when she presented the coin).

[ASRAIL]

Haha love it! For fear of getting my head bitten off again - are we told the conversation that occurs about Arya escaping? They clearly know that Jeyne isn't the real Arya, so I was just wondering what Cersei is told.

We actualy don't know what Cersei is being told but as I said i can't imagine Ser Meryn Trant admitting that he and how many - 5 or 6 other guys were beaten by a alledged dancing teacher with wooden sword. He must've told her something in the line that no one had seen her and she must've dissapeared in the chaos of fighting probably dead by few hours or days after that. Which is exactly what Cersei seems to think had happened.

[Horza]

Interesting. I would love to read arguments and textual references for this.

They're nowhere near as strong as the ones for Syrio = Meryn = Strong Belwas = Ygritte

[FanTasy]

They're nowhere near as strong as the ones for Syrio = Meryn = Strong Belwas = Ygritte

Possibly :cool4:

But I meant it, I would love to hear something text-based about a possible connection between Syrio and Jaqen. There is textual reference for Jaqen = The Alchemist = Pate2. But for Syrio = Jaqen?

I know Jaqen's presence in that cell in Kings Landing, the Braavos connections and the fact that Jaqen knew Arya's name pressed some boarders into believing Syrio = Jaqen.

Especially this last bit (how did Jaqen knew that she was Arya Stark) has yet to be explained.

If Jaqen was Furio Syrio this could be an explanation for him knowing who she was.

Personally I don't think it is the explanation, though.

Gendry in ACOK warned Arya that Hot Pie was asking him questions about Arya. And specifically Hot Pie asked if Gendry heard her shout 'Winterfell!' when they were attacked. I suspect Jaqen wanted to know more about the girl who he was endebted to and had started Hot Pie asking questions.

[Kurhill]

Interesting. I would love to read arguments and textual references for this.

Well, i don't have a lot of time to fully explain, so i will write a short summary.

We don't know what happened to Syrio. There is a probability that he was taken captive. What do we know about Jaqen? That he is a prisoner in KL around the same time Syrio got "caught". The only people that interacted with him are Rorge and Biter - both are afraid of him for some reason and we know that they are bloodthirsty psychopats that aren't easily frightened (my theory is that Syrio shapeshifted into Jaqen in front of them).

After 'Weasel soup' Jaqen changes in front of Arya - "Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he

changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek

where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half

white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls... He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth. " After that Jaqen says that he has duties to atend to.

The alchemist description - "A young man's face,

ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on

his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled

tightly around his ears." Alchemist's description matches Jaqen after transformation.

Daario (taken from awoiaf) - He keeps his beard cut in three prongs, all dyed blue. His eyes are blue and his curly hair is dyed blue. His mustachios are painted gold and he has a large, curving nose. He is lithe, smooth skinned, has a golden tooth.

Black curly hair was dyed into blue curly hair. The scar is not visible under the beard that (Jaqen starts to grow the beard in Pate chapter - "shadow of a beard"). Jaqen after transformation, alchemist and Daario have shiny golden tooth.

We also learn that Daario became the new leader of Stormcrows after recently killing two former Captains. The only thing that might not match is the timeline - but there are many times where the timeline was completly broken - for example we learn that Robert is moving his fat ass to Winterfell and in later chapters we see Daenerys wedding to Drogo (the wedding happened two years before Jon Arryn died).

[FanTasy]

Well, i don't have a lot of time to fully explain, so i will write a short summary.

Thanks Kurhill! Food for thought, I missed the golden teeth.

[Horza]

Possibly :cool4:

But I meant it, I would love to hear something text-based about a possible connection between Syrio and Jaqen. There is textual reference for Jaqen = The Alchemist = Pate2. But for Syrio = Jaqen?

I know Jaqen's presence in that cell in Kings Landing, the Braavos connections and the fact that Jaqen knew Arya's name pressed some boarders into believing Syrio = Jaqen.

Especially this last bit (how did Jaqen knew that she was Arya Stark) has yet to be explained.

If Jaqen was Furio Syrio this could be an explanation for him knowing who she was.

Personally I don't think it is the explanation, though.

Gendry in ACOK warned Arya that Hot Pie was asking him questions about Arya. And specifically Hot Pie asked if Gendry heard her shout 'Winterfell!' when they were attacked. I suspect Jaqen wanted to know more about the girl who he was endebted to and had started Hot Pie asking questions.

The problem for Syrio = Jaqen, which I've yet to see convincingly dealt with is that Jaqen was in the Black Cells the whole damn time. Ned orders him, Rorge and Biter sent to the Night's Watch while Syrio yet lives and breathes.

Syrio being Braavosi isn't really a sign of anything, Jaqen's a Lorathi and the alchemist and Pate are Westerosi as buttered neeps.

As for him knowing: a man sees a gold cloak call her girl. A man reads lies and acting like a book in sunlight and wonders why a highborn girl is playing such a dangerous game. A man hears her go by the name Arry and puts two and two together...

Black curly hair was dyed into blue curly hair. The scar is not visible under the beard that (Jaqen starts to grow the beard in Pate chapter - "shadow of a beard"). Jaqen after transformation, alchemist and Daario have shiny golden tooth.

We also learn that Daario became the new leader of Stormcrows after recently killing two former Captains. The only thing that might not match is the timeline - but there are many times where the timeline was completly broken - for example we learn that Robert is moving his fat ass to Winterfell and in later chapters we see Daenerys wedding to Drogo (the wedding happened two years before Jon Arryn died).

Aside from now having to explain why Pate's still alive at the end of AFFC after the Alchemist poisons him, the timeline doesn't work: the Alchemist is in Oldtown after Dany takes Astapor.

[lewis92]

i think hes dead, Arya screams at him to run and he says something along the lines of the first sword of bravos doesnt run,then his wooden sword is chopped in half

so if he doesnt run and Boros Blount still survives id say hes done for

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Well, i don't have a lot of time to fully explain, so i will write a short summary.

We don't know what happened to Syrio. There is a probability that he was taken captive. What do we know about Jaqen? That he is a prisoner in KL around the same time Syrio got "caught". The only people that interacted with him are Rorge and Biter - both are afraid of him for some reason and we know that they are bloodthirsty psychopats that aren't easily frightened (my theory is that Syrio shapeshifted into Jaqen in front of them).

After 'Weasel soup' Jaqen changes in front of Arya - "Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he

changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek

where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half

white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls... He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth. " After that Jaqen says that he has duties to atend to.

The alchemist description - "A young man's face,

ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on

his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled

tightly around his ears." Alchemist's description matches Jaqen after transformation.

Daario (taken from awoiaf) - He keeps his beard cut in three prongs, all dyed blue. His eyes are blue and his curly hair is dyed blue. His mustachios are painted gold and he has a large, curving nose. He is lithe, smooth skinned, has a golden tooth.

Black curly hair was dyed into blue curly hair. The scar is not visible under the beard that (Jaqen starts to grow the beard in Pate chapter - "shadow of a beard"). Jaqen after transformation, alchemist and Daario have shiny golden tooth.

We also learn that Daario became the new leader of Stormcrows after recently killing two former Captains. The only thing that might not match is the timeline - but there are many times where the timeline was completly broken - for example we learn that Robert is moving his fat ass to Winterfell and in later chapters we see Daenerys wedding to Drogo (the wedding happened two years before Jon Arryn died).

the wedding happened two years before Jon Arryn died? Wait what? Where does it say that?

A broken timeline is a pretty big deal, it basically means anyone could be anywhere at any time doing anything.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The problem for Syrio = Jaqen, which I've yet to see convincingly dealt with is that Jaqen was in the Black Cells the whole damn time. Ned orders him, Rorge and Biter sent to the Night's Watch while Syrio yet lives and breathes.

Syrio being Braavosi isn't really a sign of anything, Jaqen's a Lorathi and the alchemist and Pate are Westerosi as buttered neeps.

As for him knowing: a man sees a gold cloak call her girl. A man reads lies and acting like a book in sunlight and wonders why a highborn girl is playing such a dangerous game. A man hears her go by the name Arry and puts two and two together...

Aside from now having to explain why Pate's still alive at the end of AFFC after the Alchemist poisons him, the timeline doesn't work: the Alchemist is in Oldtown after Dany takes Astapor.

What do you mean "the whole time"? How do we know he wasn't thrown in there the day before Yoren clears out the cells?

[Light a wight tonight]

The problem for Syrio = Jaqen, which I've yet to see convincingly dealt with is that Jaqen was in the Black Cells the whole damn time. Ned orders him, Rorge and Biter sent to the Night's Watch while Syrio yet lives and breathes.

Syrio being Braavosi isn't really a sign of anything, Jaqen's a Lorathi and the alchemist and Pate are Westerosi as buttered neeps.

As for him knowing: a man sees a gold cloak call her girl. A man reads lies and acting like a book in sunlight and wonders why a highborn girl is playing such a dangerous game. A man hears her go by the name Arry and puts two and two together...

Aside from now having to explain why Pate's still alive at the end of AFFC after the Alchemist poisons him, the timeline doesn't work: the Alchemist is in Oldtown after Dany takes Astapor.

We know Pate has been poisoned but don't know that he is dead. With all the pharmacopoea available to the FM he might have been insensate for just long enough for the Alchemist to accomplish his mission and flee. The FM don't give the gift of death unless it's paid for. It is known.

[Errant Bard]

What do you mean "the whole time"? How do we know he wasn't thrown in there the day before Yoren clears out the cells?

Because Yoren gets the prisoners out on Ned's order, and any prisoner made during Ned's coup is not likely to be released on Ned's orders.

[ServantOnIce]

The show could've shown his death if they wanted, and GRRM wrote that episode. So I don't buy that he'd dead.

I don't buy that he's dead either. As GRRM left open the clue that Young Aegon was not dead, because no one could recognize the pulp of a baby left by Ser Gregor the Raper, but one thing he is clear on is that the young girl was dead. I wonder what happened to her kittens?

There is nothing in the book that says that Syrio is dead. I have the book on "e reader" like many of you and there is nothing there in Martin's term to show that the person is dead. Sort of like when he talked about Catelyn and Jon's death "the cold."

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

We know Pate has been poisoned but don't know that he is dead. With all the pharmacopoea available to the FM he might have been insensate for just long enough for the Alchemist to accomplish his mission and flee. The FM don't give the gift of death unless it's paid for. It is known.

uh, how is he still in good standing after stealing the key and the bag of silver?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Because Yoren gets the prisoners out on Ned's order, and any prisoner made during Ned's coup is not likely to be released on Ned's orders.

Uh, yeah that assumes way more coordination than I think is going on. I think Yoren shows up and is like give me everyone from the dungeons and the jailer is like, meh, sure, whatever. This is a fairly normal transaction, Yoren has been making that trip for 30 years he says. Besides which Cersei thinks Ned is going to the wall anyway.

[Nukelavee]

Corbon - no offense, but tired or not, the subject isn't dead. Plus, I took part in many of those threads. This is the active one, and, it has different posters, with different angles, on it. If you don't like it, don't read it.

It's pretty simple.

Btw, Trant never actually says he killed Syrio.

No, I don't think Syrio is a FM, that's too long shot, but, getting out of that room alive, not hard at all. After that, again, First Sword. The way he says it implies it really means something in Braavos, so, I'd bet he'd be able to call in favours from other Braavosi, if only to hide him and get him out of the city.

His survival is way more believable than Tysha being some Braavosi whore that Arya meets.

[ServantOnIce]

We know Pate has been poisoned but don't know that he is dead. With all the pharmacopoea available to the FM he might have been insensate for just long enough for the Alchemist to accomplish his mission and flee. The FM don't give the gift of death unless it's paid for. It is known.

Dude Pate's dead, that is why Jaqen assumed his identity. Pate had to die for what reason that has yet to be revealed to us.

The major folks we are in question about in regards to death are Lord too fat to ride a Horse, Jon Snow, Syrio, Stannis, and if Young Griff is an impostor or not. What say ye?

[Lummel]

... I think Yoren shows up and is like give me everyone from the dungeons and the jailer is like, meh, sure, whatever. This is a fairly normal transaction, Yoren has been making that trip for 30 years he says. Besides which Cersei thinks Ned is going to the wall anyway.

In this case the transaction isn't normal and the Jailer isn't 'meh, sure, whatever' because he's still complaining about how wrong he thought it was to release those three prisoners from from the Black Cells in AFFC!

[Maester Hodor]

i think hes dead, Arya screams at him to run and he says something along the lines of the first sword of bravos doesnt run,then his wooden sword is chopped in half

so if he doesnt run and Boros Blount still survives id say hes done for

It was Ser Meryn Trant that killed Syrio, not Boros.

If it was Boros they sent to take Arya I'd give it a 100% possibility that Syrio is still alive, seeing how Boros is a stupid oaf.