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Why is he a fake?


Rangers

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Yeah, but I think one of the main theories out there is that Serra, Illyrio's wife, was actually a Blackfyre (I think she was described as having the right coloring?), and that she's the mother of Aegon. This could be why Illyrio appeared so disappointed when Aegon didn't come to meet him when he saw Tyrion off.

That's basically it. Even though I have to admit that the theory doesn't really account for Varys' role...

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IMO, it is not going to end up mattering what we (the readers) believe, or even what can be "proven" ...all that is going to matter is what the Westerosi believe, and whether whatever proof is offered is acceptable to them.

Since obviously there is no DNA testing, there will never be any way for YG's identity to be proven fact in Westeros. They can bring forth the most unimpeachable witnesses, show some amazing dragon-shaped birthmark, whatever ...there is just no way for there to be 100% incontrovertible proof. It is all going to depend on what people choose to believe.

We may, as readers, be told the "real story," but even if GRRM chooses to let us in on what "really" happened, they will never know for certain in THEIR world. There will simply be those who choose to believe and those who do not, and the outcome will depend entirely on the numbers and statuses of each group.

This is why I don't really worry much about whether YG is really Aegon or not. What I believe matters not one whit. What I KNOW will not even matter. All of us "know" that Tyrion did not kill Joff. It amounts to not a hill of beans in their world. Unless the true poisoner stands up in court one day and says "hey, lords and ladies, guess what? I'm the one who really poisoned your snotty little boy king!" Tyrion will always be seen as a kinslayer. In fact, even if someone else did admit to it, there would be those who would refuse to believe them because they have too much stake in believing Tyrion guilty. Likewise, there will be those who bet their lives that YG is the real Aegon, and those who bet their lives that he is not. Who wins those bets will depend not on the reality of it, but on whose side the strength falls.

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I'm liking the feedback that I'm getting to my question. It appears there are issues like "he's a Blackfyre" and "Why would Illyrio and Varys favor him over V and D?"

I don't really have a response to the first thing, but I do for the second.

Why do these two schemers favor Aegon over the other two? Easy, the way heirs are determined in Westerosi law. Rhaegar was the true heir. By him dying, the heir to the throne doesn't pass to his siblings but to his children. It would have only passed to Viserys if Rhaegar died without any offspring. Viserys and Dany are both Rhaegar's siblings. Aegon is Rhaegar's child. By Westerosi law, he is the true heir to the throne. That's why Illyrio didn't take as much interest in helping V and D out but went to so much trouble to protect YG, because in the end, he is the rightful heir.

As for the issue of "it being too late in the game to introduce Aegon now," you have to keep in mind that based on interviews, GRRM has had the idea of baby Aegon being alive since at least the year 2000 (don't have the link but I'm sure people know what I'm talking about). That means that he had Aegon alive since the time he was writing ASOS. If there wasn't the POV split that occured with books 4 and 5 and he didn't take 11 years to write the two books, YG would have been introduced way long before he actually was. I feel that this argument can be thrown out the window.

Finally, as for the "his eyes are a different shade of purple than his father's," I think that people hanging on that minor detail is ridiculous. My mom has brown eyes brown hair while her sister is blue eyes blonde hair. Same parents, same lineage. You cannot assume that every Targ that ever existed had the SAME EXACT shade of silver hair and purple eyes.

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Why do these two schemers favor Aegon over the other two? Easy, the way heirs are determined in Westerosi law. Rhaegar was the true heir. By him dying, the heir to the throne doesn't pass to his siblings but to his children. It would have only passed to Viserys if Rhaegar died without any offspring. Viserys and Dany are both Rhaegar's siblings. Aegon is Rhaegar's child. By Westerosi law, he is the true heir to the throne. That's why Illyrio didn't take as much interest in helping V and D out but went to so much trouble to protect YG, because in the end, he is the rightful heir.

Fair enough, but why did Varys try to instil hostility between Aerys and Rhaegar ? If he just wants a Targaryen restauration now, and is preferring Aegon over Viserys and Dany because Aegon is Rhaegar's son, why the hell did he contribute to the fall of the Targs in the first place ? Yeah, the War of the Usurper started because Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped (or Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, depends on whom you believe, I suppose), but there were tensions before that, namely Aerys distrusting Rhaegar (because of Varys) and then going paranoid (probably due to Varys' whispers).

If Aegon is the real stuff, Varys supporting him doesn't make much sense.

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Fair enough, but why did Varys try to instil hostility between Aerys and Rhaegar ? If he just wants a Targaryen restauration now, and is preferring Aegon over Viserys and Dany because Aegon is Rhaegar's son, why the hell did he contribute to the fall of the Targs in the first place ? Yeah, the War of the Usurper started because Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped (or Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, depends on whom you believe, I suppose), but there were tensions before that, namely Aerys distrusting Rhaegar (because of Varys) and then going paranoid (probably due to Varys' whispers).

If Aegon is the real stuff, Varys supporting him doesn't make much sense.

Aerys started going nuts not cause of Varys but because of being held captive at Duskendale (Sorry if it's a different place). Pretty sure Barristan stated that before this event, Aerys was a pretty decent ruler and then it was all downhill afterwards.

Maybe Varys was creating this tension between father and son because he saw the writing on the wall that Aerys was going nuts and needed to go and that Rhaegar was turning out to be like the greatest person ever? Who knows lol.

Varys has always stated that he doesn't serve anyone but the realm, and I actually believe him. Him supporting Aegon over V and D goes along with this mentality in that by serving the realm, he is preferring the rightful heir, Aegon, and not D and V.

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Here's a question for posters who doubt that Aegon is fake.

If the kid is real, why the secrecy? Why not be more open about the fact that Aegon survived? Everyone knows that Viserys and Dany are still alive and no one seems to really care, insofar as trying to do them harm. Robert only put a hit on Dany when she got married and got pregnant; there's no evidence that "the Usurper's knives" were ever a real thing. Viserys was just as much the "real" Targaryen heir in exile as Aegon would have been.

If Aegon had really survived and this knowledge was out there, at best he could have been a rallying point for pro-Targaryen factions, set up a court in exile and been a constant reminder of Targaryen legitimacy in Essos. At worst, Robert probably would have ignored him the way he did Dany and Viserys. It actually seems to work against a Targaryen succession plot by waiting for the kid to "stew" before "revealing" him. It gave the Baratheons and Lannisters the time and ability to set up a dynastic foundation that will be that much harder to challenge than it would have been if Aegon had always been there, waiting in the wings, and people knew it. It also makes the reveal that much more suspicious — if Aegon is real, they're making it very easy for people within Westeros to write him off as a fraud even if that isn't a case. If the baby Aegon had been revealed from the moment he made his escape, the Kingsguard could have gone to protect him and his legitimacy wouldn't be in question because people would be able to watch him grow up.

So why do you hide the "true heir" for a decade and a half when you have no really good empirical reason to? You do it if you don't have the "true heir" and need to fudge the timeline.

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Here's a question for posters who doubt that Aegon is fake.

If the kid is real, why the secrecy? Why not be more open about the fact that Aegon survived? Everyone knows that Viserys and Dany are still alive and no one seems to really care, insofar as trying to do them harm. Robert only put a hit on Dany when she got married and got pregnant; there's no evidence that "the Usurper's knives" were ever a real thing. Viserys was just as much the "real" Targaryen heir in exile as Aegon would have been.

If Aegon had really survived and this knowledge was out there, at best he could have been a rallying point for pro-Targaryen factions, set up a court in exile and been a constant reminder of Targaryen legitimacy in Essos. At worst, Robert probably would have ignored him the way he did Dany and Viserys. It actually seems to work against a Targaryen succession plot by waiting for the kid to "stew" before "revealing" him. It gave the Baratheons and Lannisters the time and ability to set up a dynastic foundation that will be that much harder to challenge than it would have been if Aegon had always been there, waiting in the wings, and people knew it. It also makes the reveal that much more suspicious — if Aegon is real, they're making it very easy for people within Westeros to write him off as a fraud even if that isn't a case. If the baby Aegon had been revealed from the moment he made his escape, the Kingsguard could have gone to protect him and his legitimacy wouldn't be in question because people would be able to watch him grow up.

So why do you hide the "true heir" for a decade and a half when you have no really good empirical reason to? You do it if you don't have the "true heir" and need to fudge the timeline.

Agreed and to add something to this web.

Varys supporting the real Aegon and quite honestly the Targaryans in general doesn't make sense to me based specifically on his history. Varys hates magic and has said that on many occasions. In fact it is the reason he is a eunuch in the first place. Why would he support a girl with three dragons when dragons are the epitomy of magic in this world?

Here is just an opinion but....the words for the targaryans are 'fire and blood'...are those peace sounding words to you? Yet we are led to believe that Varys wants...peace? Does that make any sense to yall? If Varys believes in protecting and stabilizing the realm then why would you try to put in power a family whose words are 'fire and blood'? That has never made sense to me and never will make sense to me.

Blackfyres are different. If it is true that Daeron II was not the son of Aegon IV then this can be a centuries old war of the blackfyres reclaiming what was rightfully theirs to begin with. It would then make a lot more sense for Aegon to be a Blackfyre and for the Golden Company to follow him to Westeros. The only one who doesnt know anything is Jon Connington. Bottomline, it would make more sense for Varys and Illiyrio to help out the blackfyres then it would to help the targaryans who have literally done nothing in their existence except create war, chaos, and dooms.

It makes sense for Illiyrio, but not for Varys. Wasn't it speculated somewhere that Vary's name in high valyrian translated to blackfyre? I could be wrong, but I though I remember reading that.

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Here's a question for posters who doubt that Aegon is fake.

If the kid is real, why the secrecy? Why not be more open about the fact that Aegon survived? Everyone knows that Viserys and Dany are still alive and no one seems to really care, insofar as trying to do them harm. Robert only put a hit on Dany when she got married and got pregnant; there's no evidence that "the Usurper's knives" were ever a real thing. Viserys was just as much the "real" Targaryen heir in exile as Aegon would have been.

If Aegon had really survived and this knowledge was out there, at best he could have been a rallying point for pro-Targaryen factions, set up a court in exile and been a constant reminder of Targaryen legitimacy in Essos. At worst, Robert probably would have ignored him the way he did Dany and Viserys. It actually seems to work against a Targaryen succession plot by waiting for the kid to "stew" before "revealing" him. It gave the Baratheons and Lannisters the time and ability to set up a dynastic foundation that will be that much harder to challenge than it would have been if Aegon had always been there, waiting in the wings, and people knew it. It also makes the reveal that much more suspicious — if Aegon is real, they're making it very easy for people within Westeros to write him off as a fraud even if that isn't a case. If the baby Aegon had been revealed from the moment he made his escape, the Kingsguard could have gone to protect him and his legitimacy wouldn't be in question because people would be able to watch him grow up.

So why do you hide the "true heir" for a decade and a half when you have no really good empirical reason to? You do it if you don't have the "true heir" and need to fudge the timeline.

Crap. Did I answer a post very much like this one in another thread (that I can't find now - edit: found, linked) or did my post disappear?

Short answer, its perfectly logical and believable. Long answer in another thread.

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Crap. Did I answer a post very much like this one in another thread (that I can't find now - edit: found, linked) or did my post disappear?

Short answer, its perfectly logical and believable. Long answer in another thread.

Disagree, it makes better logical sense if you assume that Aegon is a Blackfyre and V&I are Blackfyre supporters. Will give a slightly longer answer in the other thread.

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The one thing that has always made me question if Young Griff really is Aegon is the fact that everything seems so .... convenient.

The switch is made believable because baby Aegon's head was smashed against a wall, so then his face was unrecognizable, so any kid the same age/same size with the right hair color could have died in his place - except that no one could have known beforehand how he was going to die.

Even if Varys

1) realized that the Lannister forces that Aerys had just invited in were going to betray them and

2) ran and made the baby switch real fast, he couldn't have known (because even Tywin didn't know) that Aegon would die way he did - if anyone else besides Gregor Clegane had found Elia and her kids first, they likely would have been killed quickly and quietly. The baby swap ruse is over if Aegon is still identifiable after he's dead.

If the Ice and Fire wiki is right, Aegon was about a year old when he died. At that age, babies have very distinctive faces and a swap is not easy to pull off, (unless the face is damaged) and far too many people (such as Jaime) could have realized something was up.

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Jaime probably never paid any attention to baby Aegon, or spent much time in his company. He didn't even pay much attention to his own offspring. He might not have grown suspicious when presented with a dead body - any differences to the vaguely remembered boy he might have attributed to death even if the face were undamaged. The servants looking after the child's health would have been much more likely to notice the differences.

If Varys really substituted Aegon, he only needed enough time to get the boy safely away from court. If the subsitution was then revealed, it didn't matter. The real Aegon would no longer be in reach of his enemies. The fact that the subsitute got killed messily, and nobody ever found out about the switch, was just an unexpected stroke of luck.

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I'm liking the feedback that I'm getting to my question. It appears there are issues like "he's a Blackfyre" and "Why would Illyrio and Varys favor him over V and D?"

I don't really have a response to the first thing, but I do for the second.

Why do these two schemers favor Aegon over the other two? Easy, the way heirs are determined in Westerosi law. Rhaegar was the true heir. By him dying, the heir to the throne doesn't pass to his siblings but to his children. It would have only passed to Viserys if Rhaegar died without any offspring. Viserys and Dany are both Rhaegar's siblings. Aegon is Rhaegar's child. By Westerosi law, he is the true heir to the throne. That's why Illyrio didn't take as much interest in helping V and D out but went to so much trouble to protect YG, because in the end, he is the rightful heir.

As for the issue of "it being too late in the game to introduce Aegon now," you have to keep in mind that based on interviews, GRRM has had the idea of baby Aegon being alive since at least the year 2000 (don't have the link but I'm sure people know what I'm talking about). That means that he had Aegon alive since the time he was writing ASOS. If there wasn't the POV split that occured with books 4 and 5 and he didn't take 11 years to write the two books, YG would have been introduced way long before he actually was. I feel that this argument can be thrown out the window.

Finally, as for the "his eyes are a different shade of purple than his father's," I think that people hanging on that minor detail is ridiculous. My mom has brown eyes brown hair while her sister is blue eyes blonde hair. Same parents, same lineage. You cannot assume that every Targ that ever existed had the SAME EXACT shade of silver hair and purple eyes.

Good thinking and well put! :cheers:

About the eyes: Dany and Viserys didn't have the same shade of eye color as their father, brother, while having the same gene pool.

Rhaegar's eyes are described in the wiki as dark lilac, Dany and Viserys as having purple eyes

Edited for inaccuracy

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The one thing that has always made me question if Young Griff really is Aegon is the fact that everything seems so .... convenient.

The switch is made believable because baby Aegon's head was smashed against a wall, so then his face was unrecognizable, so any kid the same age/same size with the right hair color could have died in his place - except that no one could have known beforehand how he was going to die.

Even if Varys

1) realized that the Lannister forces that Aerys had just invited in were going to betray them and

2) ran and made the baby switch real fast, he couldn't have known (because even Tywin didn't know) that Aegon would die way he did - if anyone else besides Gregor Clegane had found Elia and her kids first, they likely would have been killed quickly and quietly. The baby swap ruse is over if Aegon is still identifiable after he's dead.

If the Ice and Fire wiki is right, Aegon was about a year old when he died. At that age, babies have very distinctive faces and a swap is not easy to pull off, (unless the face is damaged) and far too many people (such as Jaime) could have realized something was up.

What if Gregor just found a baby in town somwhere when he discovered that Aegon was missing? Aegon could have been taken by Varys at the last second and he didn't have time to plant a substitute and when Gregor arrived and didn't find a male child he just made one up to impress his superiors and that is why he disfigured the child so?

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What if Gregor just found a baby in town somwhere when he discovered that Aegon was missing? Aegon could have been taken by Varys at the last second and he didn't have time to plant a substitute and when Gregor arrived and didn't find a male child he just made one up to impress his superiors and that is why he disfigured the child so?

Wasn't it described Elia was holding the baby and that Gregor took it out of her arms to kill it in front of her? I am not sure of this, have to :read:

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What if Gregor just found a baby in town somwhere when he discovered that Aegon was missing? Aegon could have been taken by Varys at the last second and he didn't have time to plant a substitute and when Gregor arrived and didn't find a male child he just made one up to impress his superiors and that is why he disfigured the child so?

so both Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch have lied? and what about Elia? did she know that the baby was not Aegon and was just playing along? sorry, that's unlikely for me :(

@FanTasy: I believe the baby was alone in the nursery room but Elia tried to stop them from getting in there??? not sure :unsure:

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so both Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch have lied? and what about Elia? did she know that the baby was not Aegon and was just playing along? sorry, that's unlikely for me :(

The first seems moot to me. The latter not, I have always thought that Baby Aegon would be smuggled out of the castle when the heir apparent (Rhaegar) died and the enemy armies were expected to attack Kings Landing. I think Aegon as the new heir apparent would be kept apart from where the king was. As Cersei wanted Tommen away from where Joffrey was when Kings Landing was to be attacked. I think Elia knew and agreed.

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Why do these two schemers favor Aegon over the other two? Easy, the way heirs are determined in Westerosi law. Rhaegar was the true heir. By him dying, the heir to the throne doesn't pass to his siblings but to his children. It would have only passed to Viserys if Rhaegar died without any offspring. Viserys and Dany are both Rhaegar's siblings. Aegon is Rhaegar's child. By Westerosi law, he is the true heir to the throne. That's why Illyrio didn't take as much interest in helping V and D out but went to so much trouble to protect YG, because in the end, he is the rightful heir.

As for the issue of "it being too late in the game to introduce Aegon now," you have to keep in mind that based on interviews, GRRM has had the idea of baby Aegon being alive since at least the year 2000 (don't have the link but I'm sure people know what I'm talking about). That means that he had Aegon alive since the time he was writing ASOS. If there wasn't the POV split that occured with books 4 and 5 and he didn't take 11 years to write the two books, YG would have been introduced way long before he actually was. I feel that this argument can be thrown out the window.

GRRM has been planning Aegon from the first - the seed is there in AGOT with the story of GREGOR SMASH leaving Aegon's face unrecognisible and that Varys talking to The Ned in the Black Cells only mentions Rhaenys as having been killed.

The problem with seeing V&I as Targaryen supporters dedicated to putting the true Targaryen heir on the throne isn't that they favour Aegon over Viserys and Dany it is that Viserys and Dany are utterly abandoned by V&I to beg their way round the free cities. That doesn't make any sense at all because for any Targaryen loyalist they are still members of the royal family and important people in their own right.

It is not that V&I didn't take as much interest in them they actually show no interest in them until Viserys turns up in Pentos happy to sell his sister.

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so both Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch have lied? and what about Elia? did she know that the baby was not Aegon and was just playing along? sorry, that's unlikely for me :(

@FanTasy: I believe the baby was alone in the nursery room but Elia tried to stop them from getting in there??? not sure :unsure:

Yeah, I don't have the books at hand so can't check now. I remember being said that Aegon was 'a babe in arms'. But that of course doesn't mean he was actually in his mothers arms at the time :cool4:

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Rhaegar's eyes are described in the wiki as dark lilac, Dany and Viserys as having purple eyes

Dany and Vyserys are not Rhaegar's children.

If the kid is real, why the secrecy?

Vyserios was a fool, therefore lack of action from Robert. He was left as a beggar and therefore was no seen as serious threat. Aegon on the other hand, was surrounded by people nurturing him to become a king. He was much more serious threat.

What if Gregor just found a baby in town somwhere when he discovered that Aegon was missing? Aegon could have been taken by Varys at the last second and he didn't have time to plant a substitute and when Gregor arrived and didn't find a male child he just made one up to impress his superiors and that is why he disfigured the child so?

That doesn't seem to suit Gregor character. Too clever. I would think that Gregor wouldn't give a f--- what his superiors think (I am sure if he would have thought for a moment he would have got to conclusion that brutally raping a princess with her's dead children brains splattered over would not go well with the media).

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Wasn't it described Elia was holding the baby and that Gregor took it out of her arms to kill it in front of her? I am not sure of this, have to :read:

Ok.... it will be interesting if the witnesses to this are at all credible. I am nowhere near my books :(

so both Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch have lied? and what about Elia? did she know that the baby was not Aegon and was just playing along? sorry, that's unlikely for me :(

@FanTasy: I believe the baby was alone in the nursery room but Elia tried to stop them from getting in there??? not sure :unsure:

Well if it was Greg & old Am they are about as credible in my eyes as as as as someone not credible! (Sorry I am distracted) Yes they probably lied... if it was in their interest to do so.

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