‘I’m not African-American,’ some blacks insist

[Horza]

Okay so you're just ignorant then, good to know.

What are you talking about? Can't you see how much more "outside" (nudge, nudge) curry and dancehall are? They're surely drowning out unique English culture in ways that the Normans could only dream of!

[TheLoneliestMonk]

Not to mention how much more incredible the Beatles would be without the influence of American music, or more importantly, how amazing the Clash would be without the influence of Jamaican music.

[Tammy]

No one in the new world can be considered autochthonous. Everyone came from somewhere else, including the so called Native Americans.

Unlike England, France, Spain, Russia and Germany (even though it didn't become a unified country till late), which had centuries, even more than a millennium to develop their distinct cultures, the US had less than a century before available modes of transportation made the immigration of massive amounts of people, possible. What little culture we were able to develop, that could have been as rich as those nations afforded the time, was constantly being drowned in those so inherently different, that the "melting pot" produced something unidentifiable and America was deprived of the culture it might have had. So when I hear the Irish of March, the Mexicans of May and the Italians of October, doing their thing, I realize the game is over. America lost. The culture that might have been, was drowned in a sea of elsewhere. The country of "individuals" who couldn't stand to see it be individual.

It was said best by a poet, who unfortunately, wasn't American.

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world," --The Second Coming, by William Butler Yeates

Well now I'm thoroughly confused. Are you actually saying that everyone in America right now is a descendant of an immigrant, and there are no purely American people?

Well then that would mean that American culture itself isn't even pure or isolated and that it is inherently diverse since it's made up of the varieties of individuals that immigrated. That can't be right because even that small moment in American history when you say American culture could have produced something great or unique would also be a culture sparked by immigrants.

Surely, this can't be right.

But seriously your entire post was so full of comic win that I wish I could sig the entire thing and read it on a daily basis. :lmao:

[FacelessGirl]

@Tammy you can link the page in your sig for the memories. :P

[Lord O' Bones]

I have a cultural hypothesis that I think is pretty nifty. I like it so much that I will force any and all evidence to conform to this hypothesis in my own mind. And if a multitude of people try to explain the holes in this hypothesis I will have no choice but to feel sorry for them and their lack of vision. Alas!

Wee! This is fun!

[Robin Of House Hill]

Enjoy yourselves. For your sake, I hope 20 years from now, you don't come to the conclusion that, "that nut in that forum" was right.

[Horza]

How many times has RH quit this thread in high dudgeon now? Or am I getting confused with the portentous exits in other threads?

I'm losing track of the jeremiads. Upon my head be it...

[FacelessGirl]

20 years from now we'll have forgotten your screen name. Don't hold your breathe.

[TrueMetis]

20 years from now we'll have forgotten your screen name. Don't hold your breathe.

If he left this forum right now he'd be lucky if we could remember him tomorrow.

[Sci-2]

In the interest of dialogue, I can sort of see what Robin is getting at, though I don't hold to it completely. My understanding of Robin's argument is that by continually holding onto what is different, rather than trying to take pride in our (for those of us who are in the US) American identity, we will see an erosion of the patriotism and civic pride that would unify us.

I'll admit I can see this, and I think it can be, in some instances, a relevant concern, that the only reason to be in the US is to take advantage of it economically. However, I think it ignores the sense of isolation immigrants feel, even though those who take incredible pride in their new home.

I've asked my Dad several times why people would leave the comfort of (at times relative) prosperity in India, and he always notes the feeling of freedom the US has, and in my travels through states I think I'd add hospitality and kindness for your neighbor. That sense of individuality unites Americans, that idea you can be free to be Irish or Mexican in a cultural sense *because* the US celebrates such diversity.

Now, IMO, what does threaten American culture (honest work, upward mobility, freedom of expression) are the choke holds of class privileges coupled with the ways in which our government has been bought and sold by special interests who've led us to disasters economically and politically.

[Nukelavee]

if sciborg is right, robin does have a certain point.

But, "holding onto" cultures isn't a bad thing. It can break down xenophobia and actually create ties between people. Not always, but often.

Mind you, for countries with very similar beginnings, Canada seems a bit more together, blended, I guess, than teh States. Maybe it's being trapped together in small ice houses for months at a time while polar bears and moose stalk teh cold dark streets.

[FacelessGirl]

From my eperience racial and cultural identity are not held in the same light as national identity. I have pride in being an American and I respect our history for what it is. But my race and culture make up most of who I am as a person and have shaped my life accordingly. It's naive to think it hasn't and that's why I hold strongly to it.

[fitheach]

@fitheach

Im obviously trolling him at this point, because as you stated he continually raises to the bait. It's only mildly amusing and Im fairly bored with hiim now. Though I will also state, that some small part of me thinks that he may have some sort of hero complex...but regardless...

Regarding Black Skin, White Masks...that would be a rather Cliff Notes version you just gave, but that is partially what the book addresses. The book/essay is still used quite a bit today in many colleges especially concerning African-American studies where I came across it. It more broadly addresses the feeling of inadequacy, or inferiority if you will, among black people in a white society. My particular professor felt it was still relevant to black people in America especially since the granting of equal rights to black people is only 50-60 years old here in America and there are still parts of America in which there openly racist behaviour towards black Americans. Granted I took this class about 10 years ago, but I think from the various lectures and studies I've attended I would state it is still relevant here in the States.

Re Nukelavee, who knows.. But do you really want to suggest someone has a hero complex for whitey- who probably doesn't? Save it for those who really are this way. I think you're both just stuck on a tangent.

Ahahahaha! I see what your doing here- troll ;-p. I read Black Skin, White Masks in High School. I went to a predominantly black High School and it was a part of a Senior class project- for (I think) black history month.. Oh wait! Is it wrong for me to mention I went to a High School that had mostly black students? To be clear, I'm mentioning this to explain why I read Black Skin, White Face in High School- since it's not considered required reading. Also read it in College, in African-American studies.. Still have the book, but it was over 20 years ago since I last read it completely through, so I can understand why my comments seems cliff notes-ish... By the way, there were no cliff notes when I was studying.. Yesss, we had to actually read the books in the olden days.

In High School the conversation was focused on the study as it was written (and what you're saying), and in college the conversation went from what Frantz Fanon experienced and was stating (a black person/people's experience in a colonial environment)- onto how it could be a study for all oppressed people. Tiananmen Square massacre had recently happened (1989)- so this was a big part of our conversation, which

then moved onto Tibet and other countries at that time. Yes, I know- not very African American study, yet this digress happened often.

What I do remember with both High School and College, is that some people didn't like to be described as having an inferiority complex- as is suggested in the book (among other social issues). I remember this as being a bit of a thorn that caused some argument between students.. Honestly I don't remember my High School teacher/College Professor's comments or opinions, guess I was more interested in what my peers thought. Obviously Black Skin, White Masks spoke to you, and you found the study to be absolute (as did I). But for some folks, maybe it doesn't resonate..

Also, if you haven't read it already- you should read Bury Me Standing by Isabele Fonseca. Think you'd like it (I do).

That sort of thinking is wrong in that it treats what one wishes to be true as if it is already true. In this country, your skin color does affect how you're treated, in numerous and sundry ways. To recognize this, and to give name to the sociological grouping that affects one's life, is not the same as endorsing the unfair treatment.

True, and not only in the U.S.. I've found the same in England (where I lived once upon a time), France and Italy.. The color of skin, a different name, or religion- all sadly contribute to how a person is treated.

Edit- And wtf Robin Hill?! I really don't think you know the history of Europe (and Great Britain) if you think the waves of immigration stopped hundreds of years ago..

[Robin Of House Hill]

Edit- And wtf Robin Hill?! I really don't think you know the history of Europe (and Great Britain) if you think the waves of immigration stopped hundreds of years ago..

Sorry, but I don't think that is what I said. I think you are referring to this statement. "

England was invaded many times, but I would venture to guess that it was subjected to more outside influence since 1940, than for the thousand years preceding."

[MinDonner]

*coughcough* Catholic Church *coughcough*

I suspect the centuries-long influence from Rome may trump a few differently-coloured folks bringing curry from the distant parts of the Empire. But I'm sure you won't let a few facts stand in your way.

[fitheach]

Sorry, but I don't think that is what I said. I think you are referring to this statement. "

England was invaded many times, but I would venture to guess that it was subjected to more outside influence since 1940, than for the thousand years preceding."

Ah.. I'm pretty sure the waves of migration through England have been somewhat steady for the past 1000 yrs or so. Yes, there were some periods where there wasn't much going on, but for the most part England and Europe (and everywhere else in the world) have been criss-crossed with migration since the dawn of man. Roman rule and migration to Britain, Anglo/Saxon/Jutes/Vikings who sacked/pillaged/raped- then settled on the land, Catholic rule, Norman rulers and immigration from Normandy, Prussian Kings and Queens and German/Prussian immigration, Europeans fleeing Catholic persecution for being Protestant/Jewish/or a person of Science.. The many waves of migration from France, Italy, Ireland, China and India (from Regency to Victorian era).. Not to mention port towns that have always been melting pots.

I don't think British heritage or culture (or any heritage/culture) is a stagnant thing, although people try to make it so and call it tradition. A society that's set in it's ways is not a good thing.

[Horza]

But then in the 1940s a very different type of immigrant started to arrive, you know, those 'outside' immigrants, with their strange influences.

[Lightning Lord]

Lightning Lord,

I was going to withdraw from this discussion, but your stridency in the quest to see America subsumed by everything that is not America, is appalling to me. People who think as you do, will probably prevail and this country will fail. I'm only glad that I'm old enough that I probably won't see it happen.

Go, celebrate your "victory".

Woo hoo! I win! I'll celebrate by drinking beer (which was invented in AMERICA), eating some steak (which was invented in AMERICA), listening to music (which was invented in AMERICA), and lighting off some fireworks (which were invented in AMERICA). 'Cause I'm proud to be an AMERICAN, where at least I know I'm free (as long as I think of myself exactly as everyone else does - AMERICAN and nothing more; otherwise piss on your freedom you savage, get the hell out of AMERICA).

But seriously, go back to your cave and pretend the world exists in a vaccuum. Or just quit the thread again, until you get so riled up by the thought of un-AMERICAN AMERICANS posting about AMERICA without AMERICA-ING the AMERICA that you have to AMERICA-UP the AMERICA AMERICA of AMERICA.

[Lightning Lord]

oops, AMERICA AMERICA'D that AMERICA

[Horza]

oops, AMERICA AMERICA'D that AMERICA

That's ok, 'cause AMERICA!