‘I’m not African-American,’ some blacks insist

[TerraPrime]

Re: dub

That's why I keep you as a friend, because anytime I want to sound intelligent I say,"I have a friend TerraPrime, and he says...". And you cover multiple categories as well. :P

Well, reciprocity is only fair.

Re: hereward

Oh, so I'm only here in case you need to pull the incredibly-suave-yet dashing-aristocratic-Englishman card.

I'm so offended. Though oddly excited.

*checkes category heading*

Actually I think that's Usotsuki's gig.

I think you're the "Whisk(e)y-loving-Tory-with-penchant-for-Tractor/Thatcher-former-colonial-master" guy.

Yes, yes of course you are, dear old chap!

[Datepalm]

The Israeli equivelant of "Some of my best friends are black" is "I have Arab friends" (we have lower standards for the get out of racism debate free card here.) At a workshop I was running a while ago, a guy exclaimed, with considerable passion and not a trace of irony that I could detect, that this race/culture/religeon thing people are bringing up is way overblown, or something to that effect, as "I have friends who have Arab friends."

[Nukelavee]

But, wow, isn't that offensive?

Like, I'm only friends with certain people because it allows me to say I'm tolerant?

Seriously, fuck that noise. Maybe lots of white folks can say that, because, y'know, we aren't all teh stereotypical cracker racist fucks we get told we are, and we just like people, regardless of demographic.

And, please, don't pull the "but, being white, you've always had the upper hand and stuff" card. Ethnically, I'm Greek and Scot. Not exactly top of the food chain for the last 2000 years.

And, I'm not pulling a "white discrimination" move here, I just find that kinda comment retardedly mean spirited, and empty of value.

[mor2]

An Italian sports car is less of a sports car for having a descriptor placed in front of it?

If not, then why is African-American, or Asian-American, perceived to be less American? I don't get that assumption.

I think this is exactly why so many people dont want to be called african amercian, because they see this an attempt to fight racism by labeling them like some object.

btw, if you have African-American, Asian-American and probably Hispanic American, how do you call everyone else just White/Christian American or is just simply American just like the rest want to be referred to?

[TerraPrime]

Re: Nukelavee

If the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear it.

For many of us who have lived on the intraweb for years and have encountered racist people of all degrees and manners, as well as having dealt with racism in real life, what young wolf said rings very true. There are some people who would use those lines as support for whatever it is that they are saying, as if having 1, or 2, or a dozen, black/gay/hispanic/atheist friends agreeing with whatever political view they're espousing is some sort of shield against criticism, or some sort of added validation.

Well, it's not.

If you find that idea offensive, mean-spirited, and empty-of-value, then that's your call.

Re: mor2

btw, if you have African-American, Asian-American and probably Hispanic American, how do you call everyone else just White/Christian American or is just simply American just like the rest want to be referred to?

If there's a serious push from white Americans to be called Caucasoid Americans, then I'll respect that request and start using that term. Until then, I don't see the outrage over not applying ethnic descriptors to most of the people belonging to the dominant culture.

[Lord O' Bones]

Oh goody. Another race thread!

Where people rightly claim that people are simply people and others claim that you cannot discount history, culture, and psychological bias.

I used to make ameliorating comments about how time will fix this sort of shit as long as we all keep our eyes on the prize and we put our beloved progenitors to rest.

I only have one response to these threads anymore.

[slayer420]

Wasn’t it some blacks who wanted to be called African American in the first place? Being native American this term native American does not bother me. I find it funny that a lot of the people who just say they want to be called Americans will check the race box when it benefits them. I know I don’t mind it when I can get stuff for free from the government. I don’t really like the term black though. It doesn’t sound good to me when I use it. Its like anything, no one is going to be happy with what is decided. If you say black , then you will run in to some that like to be called African American. Also the reverse is true. There are times when you need to refer to them as other than american. I don’t think that makes them any less American if you call them African American. You can call me Indian , Redman or native American it doesn’t bother me. But other’s it will. There is a current drive to make the Redskins change there name because it is racist. I just laugh at that. I have no problem with it. I could be wrong about this but we refer to Italian Americans as just Italians and some times we do this with Mexican Americans. Some would not have a problem with that , but if you did that to African american I think you would have a problem. I think we need to come up with one term and stick with it. It leads to a lot of needless problems when referring to other Americans matter what the race is. I say it doesn't matter what race you are and be pround to be that way.

[Lightning Lord]

We call Italian and Mexican-Americans just "Italian" or "Mexican"? :shocked:

If a person was born in Mexico and then became a US citizen, or if a person's parents were born in Mexico, but immigrated, I can kind of see that term. But most black people in the US have to go really far back to get a connection to Africa. If the last 6 generations were all born in the US, how is that person "African"? Maybe we should all call ourselves African-American, since homo sapien evolved in Africa.

I lived in an area with a large Somali population, I think African-American made a bit of sense with them. But Somali-American would probably make more sense. Africa not being a nationality or ethnicity and all.

[Nukelavee]

Terra - but how is that "because i knew this white guy that did that" any different?

It isn't. You can't judge an entire population based on a few, or run on the "until they prove otherwise" concept. That's racism.

So is discussing some mythical "white" culture, or this universal white privelage crap. There are all types of white, Terra, being some kinda whites doesn't really get you shit.

It's kinda bad, the whole "whitey can't understand" cliche.

I mean, it's really hard to say what i refer to my black friends as, without mentioning that, being black, it's a valid example. And, as I said, I seem to have missed offending anybody that I know, I'm going to assume I'm doing fine.

[fitheach]

I love when a race argument comes up, every white person has that "my black friend" story to back up their argument.

My best friends are black, and I know they say one of their best friends is white. They don't care and neither do I. It's just physical description (if asked) and everyone does it.. If your asked at a clothing store, "who helped you?" and you couldn't remember the salespersons name. What would you do? You'd say, "Well, she was tall with red hair and buck teeth" or whatever (btw the girl with red hair and buck teeth could be of any race)... I was also the only "white girl" in my high school graduating class in New Jersey, and described thus or as "Hollywood's sister" ("Hollywood" being my brother who graduated several years before me)- it was not a problem.. Alternately, many of the teachers and kids in the high school I went to in Florida (before moving to New Jersey) were completely racist, but they were oh so polite about it... Discrimination and racism are serious issues, and changing what you call someone wont make one difference if your a racist or bigot. Plenty of folks say African American (or Asian American or Native American) and are racists..

So yeah, you love what?

[Masonity]

On the first question, African American has always struck me as a silly term. Here in Britain we don't call people "African British" or "Caribbean British" or whatever.

Second point, of course it matters what colour skin someone has...

When you are considering sun cream, cosmetics or the like. And it's also useful when describing someone, as it is a clear visual difference.

Beyond that, of course it doesn't matter. Who someone is, how they were brought up and their personality matter. What they look like is only really relevant when I'm single (which i'm not) and they are of the opposite sex. And even then, while I tended to prefer white women, I also preferred redheads, tall women and big breasts. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have dated a black woman, a blond or someone who was vertically challenged. Hell, my wife is around 5'2.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Nukelavee and fiftheach

I don't think you two really read what Young Wolf wrote. Or if you did, you didn't understand what his point was. Let me re-quote:

I love when a race argument comes up, every white person has that "my black friend" story to back up their argument.

Bolded for emphasis. That was the point of his post.

He's not saying that "Hey, I have a black friend" is an offensive or silly thing to say. He's saying "Hey, I think the term "African American" is silly and I have a black friend who agrees with me so you can't accuse me of being a racist" is a silly thing to say, and sometimes, even offensive.

So, yeah, try not to get offended by a strawman that you made?

Re: Masonity

On the first question, African American has always struck me as a silly term. Here in Britain we don't call people "African British" or "Caribbean British" or whatever.

Yes, I'd imagine that the term does sound silly to someone from a very different culture (in terms of race relations). Just as many, if not most, Americans won't really register "Paki" as a questionable term for Pakistanis. Cultural differences and all.

Second point, of course it matters what colour skin someone has...

When you are considering sun cream, cosmetics or the like. And it's also useful when describing someone, as it is a clear visual difference.

Beyond that, of course it doesn't matter. Who someone is, how they were brought up and their personality matter. What they look like is only really relevant when I'm single (which i'm not) and they are of the opposite sex. And even then, while I tended to prefer white women, I also preferred redheads, tall women and big breasts. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have dated a black woman, a blond or someone who was vertically challenged. Hell, my wife is around 5'2.

Yes, in an ideal world where institutionalized and culturally embedded racism are both absent, then skin color should matter only for issues like cosmetics and physical descriptions.

In other words, "should" it matter for the purpose of treating other people equitably? No. Does it? Hell yes.

[deleted01]

On the first question, African American has always struck me as a silly term. Here in Britain we don't call people "African British" or "Caribbean British" or whatever.

I learnt something that absolutely blew my mind recently in my race, racism and cultural diversity lectures - apparently, in Britain, every other race apart from white is now, if you want to be politically correct, known as 'black', because other terms are derogatory. WUT. I'd find it more insulting if I were clearly not black yet was described as black. We also did a case that held that, due to a remark made by the defendant, all black citizens are African, and so if you call someone African in a demeaning way, it's offensive to all black people. I told my lecturer that he was talking out of his arse - he doesn't like me much now :P

In Britain it's really difficult actually, and having black cousins, I had a hard time learning what the correct terms were so not to offend them (or anyone else for that matter). It was half-cast for a while, but that was replaced (and I can see why) with mixed-race. Now apparently that's not right? I think people don't really care as long as they're not insulted for their race or skin colour. I don't see the problem in describing their skin colour - I'm white, he's black, for example. Statement of fact, not being derogatory. Ethnicity becomes a problem, because then we have Pakistanis and Indians, Chinese and Koreans, Polish and Belgian - how do you differentiate if you're unsure of where they're from? But it shouldn't matter or affect the way you treat people. We're all the same and one thing that really bugs me is when people say "I'm full British, why are you in my country?". Bitch, it's so unlikely that you're full British, just because you're white. So yeah, bit of a rant there really..

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

He's saying "Hey, I think the term "African American" is silly and I have a black friend who agrees with me so you can't accuse me of being a racist" is a silly thing to say, and sometimes, even offensive.

Why? If the sole basis for the claim that someone is a racist is that they believe African-American is a silly term, I'd say proof that some blacks agree does refute the assumption. Unless you're going to argue that those blacks are also racist for holding that opinion, I suppose. Because if a black person can hold that opinion of "African-American" without begin a racist, why can't a white person as well?

[Zoë Sumra]

I learnt something that absolutely blew my mind recently in my race, racism and cultural diversity lectures - apparently, in Britain, every other race apart from white is now, if you want to be politically correct, known as 'black', because other terms are derogatory. WUT.

In what social context? "Southall Black Sisters" is the only time I've ever come across even a sniff of this, and I assume that that's because "Southall Black, Indian, Bangladeshi and Various Other Ethnic Group Sisters" doesn't scan properly.

[fitheach]

Re: Nukelavee and fiftheach

I don't think you two really read what Young Wolf wrote. Or if you did, you didn't understand what his point was. Let me re-quote:

Bolded for emphasis. That was the point of his post.

He's not saying that "Hey, I have a black friend" is an offensive or silly thing to say. He's saying "Hey, I think the term "African American" is silly and I have a black friend who agrees with me so you can't accuse me of being a racist" is a silly thing to say, and sometimes, even offensive.

So, yeah, try not to get offended by a strawman that you made?

I know I wasn't making that argument, and I don't think others were either. What I said was that my friends call themselves black and me white.. Period. I never suggested, "I'm not racist because I have a black friend who agrees with me"- although that wouldn't really be racist but definitely ignorant..

So it's possible Young Wolf is the strawman (and your his side kick)?

[TerraPrime]

Why? If the sole basis for the claim that someone is a racist is that they believe African-American is a silly term, I'd say proof that some blacks agree does refute the assumption. Unless you're going to argue that those blacks are also racist for holding that opinion, I suppose. Because if a black person can hold that opinion of "African-American" without begin a racist, why can't a white person as well?

That's just one example.

Imagine if someone were to say, "Oh, Jewish women are hairy and smelly and ugly. And don't accuse me of being racist, because my Jewish friend also agrees with me." Is that ok? I'd think not.

The "I have a (insert trait) friend" trope is used to either bolster an argument (well, if a black person thinks that "African American" is an inappropriate term then my argument is more valid) or to act as a shield against accusation of racism.

Either way, it's entirely possible that a member of the minority shares the discriminatory view against the group that s/he belongs to. There are, for instance, gay people who're think that marriage belongs to a man and a woman only. So I do not give any sort of get-out-of-jail-free card to an idea or an argument simply because a minority person also holds that idea. An idea or an argument is racist independent of whether you can find a member of that minority group agreeing with it, or not.

Note that I am not saying a dislike of "African America" as a label is racist. That's not the argument. I'm talking in general here.

What prompted dub's post, if you trace back, is sivin's curious use of his black friend. Frist he said he didn't know too many of them that well, but when questioned, he now actually knows them just well enough to get the information he needs to support his argument by virtue of having the argument also made by a black person. Yeah, that's suspicious to me. And I assume that's what made dub comment on it. It's about co-opting someone's status as a minority to help your argument. It's not something to be encouraged, or lauded.

And it's always curious that the one, or two, or a handful, of minority friends who agree with the person are mentioned, and yet, none of the other minority friends who disagree with them are rarely mentioned in the same breath. Is it that they only know minority friends who agree with them on this? If not, then it's cherry-picking and hardly a valid piece of argument. If yes, then wouldn't that be curious, to have minority friends who agree with each other on the minority issues and which also just happens to align with what the poster is saying?

[fitheach]

TerraPrime, I would give the percentages of friends and what they call themselves if I had them.. I know I'm not cherry picking. I've never heard any of them say African American unless it was to fill out a form. I'm not lining myself up to only be friends with those who fit my leanings on minority issues, we're just friends. I think it's pretty cynical of you to say this, but I don't know your history or how you've been treated. BTW, my maiden name is Diego and I grew up mostly in Arizona and Florida.. Figure out where I stand in the cultural mix and how fun it was in those 2 states, then you can get back to me on being a minority (or on race).

[TerraPrime]

Re: fitheach

What I said was that my friends call themselves black and me white.. Period. I never suggested, "I'm not racist because I have a black friend who agrees with me"- although that wouldn't really be racist but definitely ignorant..

TerraPrime, I would give the percentages of friends and what they call themselves if I had them.. I know I'm not cherry picking.

As I said, if the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear it.

If you haven't used the ethnicity of your friends to add validity to your argument, or if you haven't used it to deflect criticisms of racism against you, then you are not the type of people that I am talking about.

So it's possible Young Wolf is the strawman (and your his side kick)?

Did you read the posts by sivin that led to youngwolf's response?

My maiden name is Diego and I grew up mostly in Arizona and Florida. Figure out where I stand in the cultural mix and how fun it was in those 2 states, then you can get back to me on race.

Why would I want to figure out where you stand in the cultural mix? Why wouldn't I just ask you if I were curious? And what does that have to do with what I have been saying?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

That's just one example.

Well, yeah, but it was the one you gave, so that's why I addressed it. There are other situations where it may be fair to conclude that both the person and the "friend" are racist/bigoted.

Imagine if someone were to say, "Oh, Jewish women are hairy and smelly and ugly. And don't accuse me of being racist, because my Jewish friend also agrees with me." Is that ok? I'd think not.

I'd agree, because no matter a person's particular taste in sexual attractiveness, the claim that all women of a certain background are unattractive is racist.

The "I have a (insert trait) friend" trope is used to either bolster an argument (well, if a black person thinks that "African American" is an inappropriate term then my argument is more valid) or to act as a shield against accusation of racism.

I'd agree in some situations. But I think there is an aspect of that which isn't bad at all. The reality is that there are a great many people who are not racists, have friends of different races, and never really give race a second thought. There are also people out there who levy a lot of unjustified accusations of racism. And I could see that if a person who isn't a racist is being accused of it unjustifiably, they may be perplexed by the basis of the accusation. And their natural thought is "what the hell are you talking about -- I don't value people by race, and I've got friends who are black". I don't think there is anything wrong with a response like that, because how else do you respond to someone levying an unjustified charge of racism? How can you prove that you're not?

And it's always curious that the one, or two, or a handful, of minority friends who agree with the person are mentioned, and yet, none of the other minority friends who disagree with them are rarely mentioned in the same breath. Is it that they only know minority friends who agree with them on this? If not, then it's cherry-picking and hardly a valid piece of argument. If yes, then wouldn't that be curious, to have minority friends who agree with each other on the minority issues and which also just happens to align with what the poster is saying?

But there are times it is a valid point because accusations of racism are levied too easily by some. The best argument I've ever heard against affirmative action came from two blacks I knew from law school. They were both strongly opposed to the law school using affirmative action to put minorities on Law Review, because they believed it stigmatized any minority who belonged. Now, if that argument comes from someone who is white, you just know the allegations of racism would be all over the place. And the basis would have been the belief that this wasn't the "real" justification for opposing affirmative action, but just one of convenience adopted by someone who is white to hide truly discriminatory motives.

But those allegations couldn't credibly be made against someone who is black, because what's their possible motive? And if it is possible for someone who is black to hold an opinion that isn't based on racism, then it is surely possible for a white person to hold the exact same opinion without being a racist. In essence, the argument that "I know a black person who thinks the same thing" is really nothing more than forcing the accuser to check their premises, and ensure that the inference of racism is justified.