ElizaMartell Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 All my favourite members are posting on my thread! :wub:With regards to Jamie, I think his claim to the Rock will come important when Kevan's body is discovered. The situation in King's Landing is heating up though. Some people may accuse Cercei of foul play when he's discovered and depending on whether she can cool things fown with the Tyrell's she may have to flee King's Landing at some point in the novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 There is really just no excuse for a Jaime offscreen death. Both Jaime and Brienne are POV characters, and we know they are together. I don't see why GRRM would kill Jaime off without at least giving us Brienne's POV of the killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaMartell Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 I don't see Jaimie dying either but the fact that he is missing at the time Kevan has died is probably going to make a few Lannisters anxious, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The situation in King's Landing is heating up though. Some people may accuse Cercei of foul play when he's discovered and depending on whether she can cool things fown with the Tyrell's she may have to flee King's Landing at some point in the novel.Yes I expect Cersei to try and flee early in TWOW. Upcoming trial, the city is full of angry Tyrells who will want to take over the small council while she has Ser Robert Strong and how many men?That and I think Aegon will get his day on the iron throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Tyrion and Jaime are the only ones that seem to be adapting. If Kevan had lived, it would have forced Cersei to change her ways. The Lannisters went from extreme family loyalty to disinigration of family. By murdering his father, Tyrion is having to learn to make relationships without his family's wealth. With the loss of his main sword hand, Jaime is embracing "honor". But, Cersei on the other hand, was not humbled by her walk of shame and hasn't shown that she will be changing her ways any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The actual Lannister siblings themselves? Yes, they're definitely still in the game, but they're no longer on the same side. Cersei's not done yet, she's still got some crazy left in her, and now has Gregorstein to do her bidding. Jaime's story is obviously going somewhere, but precisely where is tough to say. He's smart, relatively powerful politically speaking (though I suspect not for long), and he's easily the most competent Lannister left in Westeros...how he actually uses those attributes is another story however. Now Tyrion will of course be one of the biggest players of all in the end-game. He's just taking a little break. Once he's in with Dany (and I'd throw down real cash that he'll be Hand of the Queen), Tyrion's going to be making major moves. I'd also bet money that he will be in control of Casterly Rock, taken by force, once he returns to Westeros with Danaerys.The family itself, however? No, I don't think it's especially prominent anymore. I doubt they're going to completely fall (though it is possible), but they've got nowhere to go but downhill for now. Only Tyrion has the ability to bring it back to it's former "glory", but I don't think that will happen until the end of the series, if ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Another point I'd like to bring up:Varys is the one that doesn't make sense in all this, in my view. Why doesn't he just assassinate Tommen and Myrcella? Why bother playing the Lannisters off against the Tyrells? Does he think the Tyrells will continue to fight against Aegon even after the Lannisters no longer have a claim to the throne? That's the part I don't get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Well it both weakens them and distracts them from Aegon I suppose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WenchofTarth Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wait people really think that Jaime is going to die soon? Anything is possible I suppose but I can't see GRRM doing that. Later yes but not right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 But if Tommen is dead, what do the Tyrells have to fight for? Wouldn't they even make bids to have Maergery marry Aegon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledlevee Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think Jaime and Cersei are goners. Jaime will probably do something heroic or noble, and just when some people think he's redeemed, GRRM will kill him off. Cersei will probably be done in by people she trusts who are paid off by the Martells in such a way that some people will feel sorry for her. I don't see how anyone could have any pity for Jaime or Cersei myself, but some do and GRRM is going to play on that. So with them out of the way and Cersei's children dead like the prophecy says, Genna will likely rule Casterly Rock until Tyrion returns and takes over. This is unless Varys has some master scheme involving Tyrek. This is what I think is the fate of House Lannister. Either Tyrion or Varys will be pulling the strings at Casterly Rock in the end. I'm hoping for Tyrion. He makes a great leader as we saw in Clash of Kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Where are you getting your numbers? I don't think Manderly can field 15,000 men....Search for an thread from late summer "military roundup after adwd". It is an summarization about all known numbers.I think it's fair to estimate the Lannisters probably lost something approaching 15,000 to 20,000 men but that would still easily double what ever the North has left -- especially after current circumstances with respect to the siege of Winterfell and winter in general.Riverrun, 15,000 Lannister, annihilated. Oxcross, 20,000 Lannister, stopped existing as military asset until after the RW, Dragonstone, 2,000 Lannister, 1,000 dead. Bloddy Mummers & Armory Lorch, another 600+. Green Fork, Stonemill, Batle of Blackwater, unknown losses. Guerilla war, unknown losses. That means at the very least 35,000 Lannister losses, probably far more.On the other hand, North had 50,000+ to start with, lost 15,000 with the Young Wolf, another 2-3,000 against the Ironborn.For closer details, search for the thread I mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChromeWeasel Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 How does making Cersei do the walk damage the Lannisters as a whole? Although I feel it was morally unacceptable and deeply disturbing, how does this action translate to affecting Lannister power?Why is the walk of shame morally unacceptable? I felt that was an appropriate and relatively easy-handed way to address some of Cersei's crimes. There was no physical damage done and little risk. I don't see how that's deeply disturbing, especially in Westeros where people are brutally executed and maimed for crimes of Cersei's past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I can't believe you still think this. It goes against everything GRRM has ever written and how he's written it. Moreover, why wouldn't Catelyn simply use Jaime to get the hostages back while holding Brienne hostage?Then I'll send you a bottle of virtual champagne when you turn out to be right. :)I don't think Catelyn cares about hostage exchange unless it is her daughters, though. Especially after what happened the last time she tried to exchange Jaime for hostages.There is really just no excuse for a Jaime offscreen death. Both Jaime and Brienne are POV characters, and we know they are together. I don't see why GRRM would kill Jaime off without at least giving us Brienne's POV of the killing.I am not sure who you are rebutting with this response. I have not seen anyone in this thread mention the idea of an offscreen death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I am not sure who you are rebutting with this response. I have not seen anyone in this thread mention the idea of an offscreen death.I guess I was responding to you saying "If Jaime turns up dead," which I read to mean an offscreen death that we find out about later. Apologies if this is not what you meant. But I've seen the idea before that Jaime is already dead by the end of ADwD, not in this thread but elsewhere. So my statement is also in response to that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Search for an thread from late summer "military roundup after adwd". It is an summarization about all known numbers.Riverrun, 15,000 Lannister, annihilated. Oxcross, 20,000 Lannister, stopped existing as military asset until after the RW, Dragonstone, 2,000 Lannister, 1,000 dead. Bloddy Mummers & Armory Lorch, another 600+. Green Fork, Stonemill, Batle of Blackwater, unknown losses. Guerilla war, unknown losses. That means at the very least 35,000 Lannister losses, probably far more.On the other hand, North had 50,000+ to start with, lost 15,000 with the Young Wolf, another 2-3,000 against the Ironborn.For closer details, search for the thread I mentioned.The Lannisters didn't lose 20,000 men at Oxcross. And all the prisoners the North had were released. These figures just don't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaMartell Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Why is the walk of shame morally unacceptable? I felt that was an appropriate and relatively easy-handed way to address some of Cersei's crimes. There was no physical damage done and little risk. I don't see how that's deeply disturbing, especially in Westeros where people are brutally executed and maimed for crimes of Cersei's past.Because she was punished for being a woman with a sexual appetite rather than being punished because she tortured/killed anyone. It was shaming her sex and beauty more than anything that can be close to be called 'retribution' for her previous actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChromeWeasel Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 CerBecause she was punished for being a woman with a sexual appetite rather than being punished because she tortured/killed anyone. It was shaming her sex and beauty more than anything that can be close to be called 'retribution' for her previous actions.Cersei was accused of framing another innocent noble woman at the very least. Her shame had nothing to do with her sex and beauty. It had to do with using her position to corrupt and dispose of anyone that kept Cersei from illegitimately ruling as Queen regent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The Lannisters didn't lose 20,000 men at Oxcross. And all the prisoners the North had were released. These figures just don't add up.No, it weren't all 20,000 of them, just enough that Robbs 6,000 could run rampage through the Westerlands for months and siege two important castles without the slightest threat from the survivors. And which prisoners do you mean? The few nobles? Or the thousands and thousands of ordinary foot soldiers not worth a ransom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frosted King Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The Lannisters remain in the game, in definitely worse a condition than at the onset of the WOTFK, but few players haven't been bruised.The Starks are thought to be dead, but they've only lost a father and a son. Their lands are in turmoil and armies depleted true but they've certainly come through. The reunion is what is going to be of interest.The Greyjoys are in worse condition, since they've lost the north and never had the power of one of the great houses. Their only true power the Iron fleet is strong, yes but that is going to fragment under the split ambitions of two different brothers.The Baratheons appear to be doomed, sheerly due to losses sustained. They lost hard at the Blackwater since those were mostly Stormlords in play, and the tyrells once again lay siege to Storms End. Stannis is leagues from home, surrounded by winter and winterlords who either distrust, or openly seek his end. His wife and daughter inspire no love for his cause and his nature(while a joy to read) is boorish in presence.The Lannisters better in standing than the Baratheons and Greyjoys due to remaining power and prestige, respectively.But they've lost their biggest ace(tywin) and then the next in line to set things best for their futures has taken dead(kevan).Tyrion could, but his family is now his enemy, so with Jaime missing(but never the best statesman anyways), and Cersei eagerly waiting to retake the reigns, their star appears to be waning.Cersei's paranoia is her biggest enemy, and in the war the Starks and Lannisters bled each other grievously.The Tyrells have the largest army in the kingdom, followed by the Vale and then the Dornish. The lannisters likely stand here, then the North and the riverlands lastly the stormlands.They're the house with the biggest targets on them, due to actions taken 15 years prior, and recent grievances.If Cersei succeeds in severing ties with the Tyrells, i can see no routes to her houses lasting health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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