Why should the Vale help Sansa?

[brashcandy]

Good points, LadyoftheNorth. I do think that the Harry the heir plan is just the thing that LF might have expected Sansa to go for, and it probably is as you say, to ensure she's compliant during her captivity stay in the Vale, and to get her to work at charming Harry in preparation for a marriage and bedding that he means to capitalise on. I don't think he plans to pawn her off to Harry either: let's remember LF is the big virginity taker. He bragged about taking both of the Tully girls' virginity and something tells me he plans to go 3 for 3. I'm intrigued by your theory that he's going to let her real identity make the rounds to see just the kind of loyalty she could inspire. I've always felt he's betting on Dany and those dragons and it wouldn't surprise me if he plans to support Dany's queenship and keep Sansa as a personal pet or potential wife when Dany gratefully gives him a castle not cursed like Harrenhal. I mean, the tale he spins to Sansa about retaking Winterfell is just a little too romantic for a snake like LF.

[Lykos]

I have doubts that LF is really that clever. I´m not convinced he knows about Dany or if he does, considered her of any importance for his plans. He dealt with Varys for some years and will have kept taps on him, so he will regard Aegon as more important, if he managed to find out. The remark about the 3 queens was referring to Cersei, Margaery and the Queen of Thornes imo. But otherwise LadyoftheNorth shows a very good scenario. I hope though that LF underestimated Randa Royce. I think she´ll play a crucial role in Sansa´s development. As to the taking of the virginity of the two Tully sisters, he never took Catelyn´s, he mistook Lysa for Catelyn in his fever recovering from the duel with Brandon. He´s not as good as he believes.

[TeamDanyArya]

I think if Lysa had lived, the Vale would have continued to stay out of the way. But, with LF in charge and his scheming to gather support, it does make you wonder what the Vale's role will be going forward. It doesn't sound like they have much to really offer. They are closed off from the rest of the world due to their location. I doubt the Vale would support Sansa. For one thing, everyone thinks she ran off because she had something to do directly with Joffery's murder. Plus, she is a Stark and I think the few supporters the Vale had don't exactly scream pro-Stark. Or pro-Tully for that matter due to Lysa's hatred of her sister. This is one of those parts of the plot I struggle with understanding how it might fit in the end.

[FanTasy]

I´m not convinced he knows about Dany or if he does considered her of any importance for his plans.

Yes, this is something I wonder. What does Littlefinger know about (1) Dany (2) Aegon and (3) Jon.

And how will he use the Vale lords for his purposes.

He has some good connections with the Tyrells, I suspect, For whom he brokered Margaery's marriage and the grip of the Tyrells on the Iron Throne.

And he owns brothels.

Inns and brothels probably were the places where information was available. I think it is very probable that Littlefinger heard the rumours about Dany and her amazing dragons, like we as readers hear rumours about them when one of the p.o.v.'s is at an inn.

We know Littlefinger was a provider of 'special needs' for men. This could give him a very nice network of informers in special places.

So I think he probably knows a lot. And a lot about the weak spots of the Vale Lords as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if he had Varys closely followed and was interested in Varys' contacts with Illyrio. Salla told us of other visits of Illyrio to Westeros besides his talk at the dungeon that Arya ran into. Maybe Littlefinger knows something about the Aegon plot.

Illyrio was rich, maybe Littlefinger as master of coin loaned money from Illyrio?

I had a hunch that when Littlefinger talked in AGOT about the Faceless Men and he was pretty well informed about the price they would ask for a "merchant", this could have had something to do with Illyrio.

Jon, that's a tough one. No clues whatsoever in the text ... mere speculation ... Littlefinger could have been quite interested in Ned's 'weaknesses' because of a grudge Littlefinger probably holds towards the Starks.

Well, very interesting to see what GRRM has upon his sleeve for the role the Vale and Littlefinger will play.

And if his plot about the Vale defending her claim to Winterfell he told Sansa about, is really what he plans :devil:

[Lykos]

@Fan Tasy

I´m actually quite lost when it comes to LF´s plans. I think he doesn´t match Vary´s abilty in covering up and disguising, but I think he has a very good network of sources for information. And as LadyoftheNorth said, he seems to be a very good reader of people.

When you mentioned his brothels, I remembered something I was wondering about when I read Ser Barristan´s description of Ashara Dayne. There was this whore in Chataya´s brothel that matched the description and could have been of Jon´s age. She was teaching the other whores how to read, wich made me wonder if she was highborn. She was definitly working there, sleeping with Bronn, so it didn´t look as if she was just hidden away. And anyway I think it´s a to small a scene to hint towards the survival of Ashara and / or her daughter.

But I agree with you, that LF must have been very interested in Jon and actually Lyanna, since this touched the subject of Ned´s marriage to Catelyn.

[Grail King]

Am I missing something? How could LF not know of Danerys wasn't he in the meeting with Robert, Ned,Selmy, Varys, Pycell and Renley on killing her?

And only Ned and Selmy voiced opposition to the assassination.

[ElizaMartell]

Yeah, it would be pretty silly if he had no clue about Dany. Expecially seeing he seems to have links to Essos and Braavos. If anything his mention of 'Three Queens' in AFFC suggests he's perfectly aware of how the full picture looks unlike other players in the game.

[jarl the climber]

Touching on the subject of Jon, we have been given very few clues as to how Littlefinger regards him, he probaly considers him an obstacle to whatever his plans are for Winterfell. It is Widely beleived that he has joined forces with Stannis and not without some justice. It is possible that LF thinks that Stannis might try to claim Winterfell through Jon. The Kettlebacks are his men and it will be interesting to see if he discloses the plot against Jon that Cersei is hatching. Its possible that that the Blackfishs tirade against Jon was a result of misinformation provided by Littlefinger. I don't think LF had much of an interest in him til now and if he considers him to be a man like his Father I think he perceives him as a minor obstacle.

[ElizaMartell]

So do you think in the next book, through Sansa Littlefinger make a claim for the Riverlands or the North?

[jarl the climber]

I think LF will try to grab anything he can while maintaining the appearance of being benevolent.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Touching on the subject of Jon, we have been given very few clues as to how Littlefinger regards him, he probaly considers him an obstacle to whatever his plans are for Winterfell. It is Widely beleived that he has joined forces with Stannis and not without some justice. It is possible that LF thinks that Stannis might try to claim Winterfell through Jon. The Kettlebacks are his men and it will be interesting to see if he discloses the plot against Jon that Cersei is hatching. Its possible that that the Blackfishs tirade against Jon was a result of misinformation provided by Littlefinger. I don't think LF had much of an interest in him til now and if he considers him to be a man like his Father I think he perceives him as a minor obstacle.

I think this part will also backfire because the kettleblacks will confess everything

[ElizaMartell]

I think this part will also backfire because the kettleblacks will confess everything

Well this depends how much the Kettleblacks already know.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Well this depends how much the Kettleblacks already know.

that they are LF's pawns is more than enough too trouble for him (they'll go for the father and LF can't do anything)

[ElizaMartell]

that they are LF's pawns is more than enough too trouble for him (they'll go for the father and LF can't do anything)

I think Littlefinger would be well aware of whats going on in King's Landing court to know to how to disassociate himself from that mess.

[Lummel]

I think this part will also backfire because the kettleblacks will confess everything

An interesting point. I wonder how much they know other than that Littlefinger had planted them in Kings Lnading as his spies, I wonder who in Kings Landing will care what Littlefinger has been up to given everything else that is going on?

[ElizaMartell]

An interesting point. I wonder how much they know other than that Littlefinger had planted them in Kings Lnading as his spies, I wonder who in Kings Landing will care what Littlefinger has been up to given everything else that is going on?

Yay, you're here!

What do you think is likely to happen to Sansa in the Vale in winter?

[Ednawolf]

Yeah, I really want Sansa to be the one to avenge Ned by taking down Littlefinger. But I'm a little worried - she seems to be growing more fond of LF rather than beginning to suspect things? How long is it going to take her?

I don't think that she's becoming more fond of LF. Sansa is extremely reserved and courteous... and her experience in KL taught her how to role play without betraying her true feelings.

[Lykos]

Am I missing something? How could LF not know of Danerys wasn't he in the meeting with Robert, Ned,Selmy, Varys, Pycell and Renley on killing her?

<snip>

We were talking about an all powerfull Daenerys with dragons and armies, that she actually doesn´t have anymore. Of course LF knows of her existance, but this information came from Varys, we don´t know if LF is being kept up to date on Dany or if he sees her as a threat.

[The Last Direwolf]

There are several reasons why the lords of the Vale might call their banners for Sansa - first, if Sansa is married to the heir to the Eyrie, they would be honour bound to win her back her birthright. The fact that Ramsay Bolton married fake Arya means nothing as whilst Sansa is alive, Arya has no claim to Winterfell.

Second, if it was the Vale that helped Sansa win back her rightful throne as Queen of the North, Sansa would reward them with more incomes, more important offices and the lands of those who tried to oppose her. The Dreadfort, Karhold and the Crossing would be strongholds that would be left without a lord if Sansa should win back her throne as the Freys, the Karstarks and the Boltons would be sure to resist her. These lands and lordships would go to those who helped her win back her throne surely?

And thirdly, many of the Vale lords were furious with Lysa for not calling her banners to go to the aid of the Young Wolf. They would jump at the chance to avenge his death.

So all in all, the lords of the Vale would stand to gain quite a lot if they aided Sansa to reclaim her home.

[the Scorpion Knight]

An interesting point. I wonder how much they know other than that Littlefinger had planted them in Kings Lnading as his spies, I wonder who in Kings Landing will care what Littlefinger has been up to given everything else that is going on?

they will at least tell where where they send their information their father (a close confidant of LF)

let's start with the persons they might be intrested in the info

- The high septon

- CERSEI

- Qyburn

- Mace

- VARYS!!! if he doesn't already know