Why should the Vale help Sansa?

[FanTasy]

We know that the Royces were "near rebellion" IIRC over Lysa's refusal to aid Robb in his war.

You were right. Outstanding memory! :bowdown:

[Nev yn]

Harry could be killed, Randa could be married off to Sweetrobin which wold render that card mute.

Sweetrobin being married only matters with regards to inheritance if he fathers a child (face it, he's dying in the next book). Somehow, that doesn't seem very likely.

[Alexia]

Ehh, why would Mya hate her? Shouldn't she worry more about Randa?

Because of how Mya's relationship with that boy went (the one who promised to marry her and didn't over her bastardy) when Sansa gets betrothed to the heir of the Vale despite being a bastard. Myranda could be a formidable enemy or ally, but somehow I think she just may end up an ally.

You were right. Outstanding memory! :bowdown:

I read Sansa chapters more times than was really good for me! :lol:

Oba, thanks for supplying the quote.

[Faint]

I honestly feel the Vale should sit tight, as it has done to this point, for the foreseeable future or at least until the conflict between 'Aegon' and Tommen is settled. Invading the North during the onset of winter is just sheer lunacy, whatever the reasons. As for the Riverlands, there isn't much to be gained from a venture there at this point either.

It is not a coincidence that the kingdoms that lie in tatters at the moment are all those that sought vengeance above all other considerations. I have a feeling Dorne will soon fall into the same trap. I don't know why the Vale would want to do likewise.

[Raksha the Demon]

Sansa can't marry anyone until, and if, her marriage to Tyrion is annulled and the charges of king-slaying are dropped. I have a feeling that may not happen as quickly as Littlefinger has implied to Sansa. Perhaps Sansa's marriage to "Halfman" might carry weight with the mountain clans; should she meet them; and what if Timmett son of Timmett has a better claim to the Eyrie than Harry-the-Heir - there was that Arryn-related young woman who was carried off by the clansmen; did GRRM really have Littlefinger bring it up just for extra detail on the Arryn pedigree?

Littlefinger has also directed that SweetRobin be given the sweetsleep; and they weren't having to bring the kid down the mountain at the time; I don't know that Sansa would be blamed for it alone.

Sansa just might find herself Lady of the Vale one of these years. Not sure that Myranda will be friend or foe; if Sansa snags Harry-the-Heir, the most eligible bachelor in the region, who Myranda would have liked to have married herself, that could cause Myranda to connive against her; unless Sansa could help her get a good marriage to a virile young lord with some wealth...

As a previous poster suggested, Ned Stark was known in the Eyrie and Vale; there are probably older folks who fondly remember him, since he spent a good chunk of his youth there. Bronze Yohn Royce was on the verge of recognizing Alayne as Sansa; Sansa wanted to tell him her true identity, but is very worried as to who to trust (with good reasons, she once trusted Joffrey and Cersei; which caused disaster, and now Littlefinger has her emotionally and politically boxed in and dependent on him and is doing his best to convince her to trust no one but him)....I think Bronze Yohn would help Sansa and could influence other Vale Lords; especially if Sansa is the beloved young bride of Harry-the-Heir...

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think the vale will be the next target for Aegon and the GC

[ElizaMartell]

I think the vale will be the next target for Aegon and the GC

But the Vale is so far away from the Stormlands. And why target the Vale, they've stayed out of the War with the Five Kings.

[Faint]

The whole situation is so hopelessly complicated because, on the one hand, Littlefinger derives all his power from the Lannisters in power, but him putting this scheme in motion basically entails that the Vale declare idependence from the Iron Throne, or at the very least, an alliance to someone other than Tommen ('Aegon'?).

[ElizaMartell]

Nah, Littlefinger just wants a fresh Vale for his bidding. Sansa is his puppet and he knows no one will really help her in the Vale.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Nah, Littlefinger just wants a fresh Vale for his bidding. Sansa is his puppet and he knows no one will really help her in the Vale.

Sansa Stark has the friends of Ned, Sansa Hardyng has the Knights, and Sansa Lannister has the mountian men... too bad her name is Alayne

[David C. Hunter]

Plus Harry is kind of a dick, he got a bastard (which actually doesn't make him a dick 100%) Anyway his name is Harry Hardyng, Houdini's name was Harry and his brother's name was Hardden, which kinda sounds like Hardyng... So Harry the Heir is either 1. a magician or 2. A Hungarian Jew

Hahahaha! :bowdown:

I think the vale will be the next target for Aegon and the GC

Its too far away and the Vale is damn near impregnable. Not to mention winter has finally come.

I honestly feel the Vale should sit tight, as it has done to this point, for the foreseeable future or at least until the conflict between 'Aegon' and Tommen is settled. Invading the North during the onset of winter is just sheer lunacy, whatever the reasons. As for the Riverlands, there isn't much to be gained from a venture there at this point either.

It is not a coincidence that the kingdoms that lie in tatters at the moment are all those that sought vengeance above all other considerations. I have a feeling Dorne will soon fall into the same trap. I don't know why the Vale would want to do likewise.

Dorne to me seems stronger then ever, mainly because no one is worried about them, they have eyes everywhere and they have not lost any men. Doran Martell may want revenge but unlike the Starks, Riverlords, etc he's actually thought it through. I think many readers give Dorne too littl credit.

I think thats an interesting assessment for the Vale to stay tight and they probably should, but that's why Littlefinger is there. I think they main reason why Sansa and Littlefinger are in the Vale is to mobilize it before the Winter comes. Though to me it would make more sense for the Vale to attack the riverlands, not the North. In a way the North can look out for itself. We'll see.

Sansa Stark has the friends of Ned, Sansa Hardyng has the Knights, and Sansa Lannister has the mountian men... too bad her name is Alayne

Not for long....

[Wouter]

The whole situation is so hopelessly complicated because, on the one hand, Littlefinger derives all his power from the Lannisters in power, but him putting this scheme in motion basically entails that the Vale declare idependence from the Iron Throne, or at the very least, an alliance to someone other than Tommen ('Aegon'?).

I'm still intrigued by LF's infamous "three queens" comment in AFFC (events in ADWD only make this statement more confusing, since Aegon is now on stage); may he be counting on Dany's arrival? He is well-connected and should know about her, independently of Varys's spy network.

Anyway, LF started his powerbase thanks to the Lannisters but he isn't depending on it; he used his Harrenhal title to marry Lysa and then took it from there. As the Alayne chapters show, he has already bought half of the "lord declarants" in one way or another so his real powerbase is money. He is counting on revealing Sansa and once he does, it's obviously over with Lannister support; LF will count on that and have his own powerbase by that time.

Obviously, the Vale would support a revealed Sansa Stark married to Harry the Heir (or to Sweetrobin himself, should he survive, which he may if Sansa chooses to protect him in cooperation with the maester - this may be a plot point in TWOW). However, if Rickon is revealed in the meantime nor Sansa herself nor the Vale lords would probably want to march north with hostile intentions and even without such a reveal they wouldn't do anything during winter (Bronze Yohn seems to know his stuff and wouldn't embark on a northern conquest in winter, unlike the Freys).

If Sansa reveals herself independently of Littlefinger, I think she would be able to find sufficient support to find protection from LF/LF loyalists and the Lannisters. There would probably be attempts to get her to marry some Royce or other young Vale lord soon enough, though (maybe even Harry again - Yohn would probably approve of that). I don't see Vale armies moving north in this situation though, unless it would be to aid the Wall - maybe.

[ElizaMartell]

The Waynwoods and the Royce's have marriage links to the Twins and Freys. It wouldn't make any sense them going against their own family members. The Vale will stay put.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Its too far away and the Vale is damn near impregnable. Not to mention winter has finally come.

storm's was also impregnable and the lad took it

P.S.: dear Admin we need a spoiler button

[HyacinthGirl]

I think that if the Vale rises to help Sansa (which they might not) after she has married Harry the Heir (which is one reason: if Harry rules the Vale and decides to go North, his lords should obey), it would have something to do with Jon and Ned's friendship.

Jon was beloved in the Vale and as he practically raised Ned and Robert, so I'm guessing they liked Ned well enough, seeing as the didn't seem to object to joining in on the Ned/Robert side of the rebellion. Jon, Robert and Ned are all gone: all that is left of Jon is Sweetrobin, who most of the Vale folk see as rather pathetic, all that is left of Robert are bastards or Baratheon-Lannisters (if the Vale Lords don't believe Stannis' claims of incest), and Ned's children were all butchered (as far as most of the world knows).

So if the wife of the Heir to the Vale is revealed as a Stark, the lords of the Vale might feel a tad sentimental. I think it was made pretty clear that if it wasn't for Lysa, the Lords of the Vale (e.g. the Royces) would have joined in with the anti-Lannister rebellion. I think that they wanted to fight with the North and the River lords (but I could be mistaken). So if the "last" Stark appears in their midst, they might decide it's a good opportunity to get involved.

Edit: As for Royce-Frey marriages, I don't think the Royces would want anything to do with the Freys. They seem to be a family who takes honour very seriously, like the Starks: and the RW was just about the most dishonourable thing ever done in Westeros.

[David C. Hunter]

I'm still intrigued by LF's infamous "three queens" comment in AFFC (events in ADWD only make this statement more confusing, since Aegon is now on stage); may he be counting on Dany's arrival? He is well-connected and should know about her, independently of Varys's spy network.

Anyway, LF started his powerbase thanks to the Lannisters but he isn't depending on it; he used his Harrenhal title to marry Lysa and then took it from there. As the Alayne chapters show, he has already bought half of the "lord declarants" in one way or another so his real powerbase is money. He is counting on revealing Sansa and once he does, it's obviously over with Lannister support; LF will count on that and have his own powerbase by that time.

Obviously, the Vale would support a revealed Sansa Stark married to Harry the Heir (or to Sweetrobin himself, should he survive, which he may if Sansa chooses to protect him in cooperation with the maester - this may be a plot point in TWOW). However, if Rickon is revealed in the meantime nor Sansa herself nor the Vale lords would probably want to march north with hostile intentions and even without such a reveal they wouldn't do anything during winter (Bronze Yohn seems to know his stuff and wouldn't embark on a northern conquest in winter, unlike the Freys).

If Sansa reveals herself independently of Littlefinger, I think she would be able to find sufficient support to find protection from LF/LF loyalists and the Lannisters. There would probably be attempts to get her to marry some Royce or other young Vale lord soon enough, though (maybe even Harry again - Yohn would probably approve of that). I don't see Vale armies moving north in this situation though, unless it would be to aid the Wall - maybe.

Agreed. Maybe the three queens are Maragery, Cersei and Arianne Martell? Doran kicks the bucket in TWOW?

Also, like I said it seems Littlefinger and Sansa exist in the Vale to mobilize it. IMO, The North can take care of itself. regardless of who comes out on top, Stannis, Starks, Boltons, Manderlys, nobodu really needs help from the Vale. Sansa would do better attacking the Riverlands and taking it away from the Freys and Lannisters. Possibly reuniting with her mother. Sansa is more of a Southerner anyway.

[David C. Hunter]

storm's was also impregnable and the lad took it

P.S.: dear Admin we need a spoiler button

Touche, but the Vale in winter is a different monster. You cant even get to the Eyrie during Winter, how will Aegon do it? The Dragons are not as savvy with the Vale and North as they are in the South lands

The Waynwoods and the Royce's have marriage links to the Twins and Freys. It wouldn't make any sense them going against their own family members. The Vale will stay put.

If they Vale stays put there would be no reason for Sansa and Littlefinger to be there from a story telling point of view. I believe the purpose for Littlefinger to be there is to mobilize them. Littlefinger plans may not always go the way he plans, but he usually still remains on top. Half of the Vale is in his pocket and the other half will come when Sansa marries Harry. Many lords were upset when Lysa didnt raise her banners for Rob Stark. Its time my friend.

[Wouter]

The Waynwoods and the Royce's have marriage links to the Twins and Freys. It wouldn't make any sense them going against their own family members. The Vale will stay put.

As was quoted above, the Royce's (well, the Runestone one's anyway) were ready to go to war for Robb and were furious Lysa didn't do anything. What would their reaction be to the Red Wedding? It's not hard to imagine what they think of their Frey "family". They will obviously not kill their direct family with Frey name, but it wouldn't stop them from fighting the bulk of the family - much like the marriage between Genna and Emmon Frey didn't stop the Lannisters from fighting the Freys.

The Waynwoods seem to be onboard with Yohn Royce in most cases, allthough LF buying up their debt will change that in relation to the proposed Harry/Alayne marriage (arranged behind Yohn Royce's back, no doubt).

[Wouter]

storm's was also impregnable and the lad took it

P.S.: dear Admin we need a spoiler button

By guile. Most likely he pretended to be a relief force from Stannis, to break the Tyrell siege of Storm's End. If they open the gates for you, the castle is obviously not "impregnable". The Eyrie would also be taken if they allowed the attackers into the castle itself, without any resistance offered. Or if you used dragons to roast it beforehand...

[the Scorpion Knight]

Touche, but the Vale in winter is a different monster. You cant even get to the Eyrie during Winter, how will Aegon do it? The Dragons are not as savvy with the Vale and North as they are in the South lands

If they Vale stays put there would be no reason for Sansa and Littlefinger to be there from a story telling point of view. I believe the purpose for Littlefinger to be there is to mobilize them. Littlefinger plans may not always go the way he plans, but he usually still remains on top. Half of the Vale is in his pocket and the other half will come when Sansa marries Harry. Many lords were upset when Lysa didnt raise her banners for Rob Stark. Its time my friend.

the same way the andals did from the west. lord grafton fought for the targs