Why doesn't Catelyn believe Tyrion's reasoning?

[Thrice the Hound]

Cat considered Petyr family and as close to her as a brother could be that was her biggest mistake, thinking that LF forgave her for not coming to see him in his sick bed and not loving him back. I think she began to have her doubts but as others have said she had already snatched him and was stuck between hill tribes and the safety of the Eyrie. Cat also didn't believe it when she was told that Lysa had gone a little crazy she should have gone to Winterfell not to the Vale where all her authority was snatched from her by her sister.

[lyvyathan]

I think in order for Catelyn to get over Ned's apparent infidelity, she disassociated it from Ned and manifested it all in Jon. It certainly was without honor. But, I was also thinking Catelyn was not as far to the extreme as Ned was in regards to honor.

Does splattering mud on other characters really make your fav character shine brighter?

I don't think Catelyn initially wanted to kidnap Tyrion, because it mentions in the book how she tried to hide her identity from him, but after she was recognized she made an impulsive decision. She knew the Lannisters were responsible for Bran's fall, and he was a Lannister. I too am searching for answers as to why she didn't believe Tyrion after he gave her such convincing facts to support his innocence. I think she was too far gone to go back and she may have come to a different conclusion if her sister hadn't grown into such a wacko. Catelyn was truly unprepared for how much Lysa had changed, and was unable to have any influence over what Lysa did. That trial by combat was truly out of her hands.

No of course she didn't plan to kidnap Tyrion. But the fact of the matter is that she did.

Who asked her to kidnap Tyrion? Who asked her to risk his life and her life + the lives of her escorts - going through the Vale? Who asked her to keep on placing her faith in her crazy sister. It should have been bleeding obvious that Lysa was 3 hooves short of a cow - but yet Cat still refused to relent on her suspicions against the Lannisters.

Look, Cat is many things- a loving mother, a loving wife, a brave woman... but she also has many deficiencies and I'm not sure why some of the other readers have major problems in acknowledging them.

[lyvyathan]

Cat considered Petyr family and as close to her as a brother could be that was her biggest mistake, thinking that LF forgave her for not coming to see him in his sick bed and not loving him back. I think she began to have her doubts but as others have said she had already snatched him and was stuck between hill tribes and the safety of the Eyrie. Cat also didn't believe it when she was told that Lysa had gone a little crazy she should have gone to Winterfell not to the Vale where all her authority was snatched from her by her sister.

LF wasn't just sick. He was practically torn in half by Brandon's blade. I don't know about you but if I find a childhood friend who has a sidejob working as a pimp and drug dealer - I gotta be pretty desperate to trust the dude 100%.

[lyvyathan]

Yeah, I can't believe she let it come to that trial. Did she even go to Lysa's chambers to try to talk her out of it? What was her grand plan, anyway...take Tyrion to the Vale and..... ????? Cat should have fought tooth and nail to get him out of that trial....considering she pretty much knew that Bronn was going to win. Not to mention, she was basically screwed either way with that trial by combat. Bronn loses? Tyrion's dead and useless. Bronn wins? Tyrion's gone and you have no prisoner/hostage.... :stillsick:

That was a way for her to save Tyrion. She could have volunteered herself to be Tyrion's champion - afterall he was her prisoner and she was responsible for his safety.

If she had been Tyrion's champion - I think none of the Vale knights would have dared to fight against her out of sheer respect for her integrity and honor.

By the way, sending Tyrion down the Vale - after the Trial - was in itself another kind of death sentence - the book mentions this.

[teemo]

True, that would have been a really good move on Cat's part. I wonder what little Robert's reaction would have been then. "Let's see the lady, fly!" I doubt that would even cross Cat's mind, however.

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, I can't believe she let it come to that trial. Did she even go to Lysa's chambers to try to talk her out of it? What was her grand plan, anyway...take Tyrion to the Vale and..... ????? Cat should have fought tooth and nail to get him out of that trial....considering she pretty much knew that Bronn was going to win. Not to mention, she was basically screwed either way with that trial by combat. Bronn loses? Tyrion's dead and useless. Bronn wins? Tyrion's gone and you have no prisoner/hostage.... :stillsick:

Trial by combat is not something that can be easily denied, even by Targaryen Kings. Lysa pushed it already when she denied Tyrion the choice of Jamie for his champion.

[Prince of Dragonflies]

At first, I too wondered why a seemingly intelligent person like Catelyn could not allow a morsel of doubt creep in after listening to Tyrion's reasoning. After giving it some thought, and re-reading the syntax, I felt that there was some doubt after Tyrion tried to reason with her.

My hunch is that she may have began to doubt Littlefinger's story upon hearing Tyrion's response to it. But there is this phenomena known as akrasia, where people knowingly continue on a path that could conceivably prove self-destructive (or even destructive to others close to them, if this potentially harmful decision has a wide enough scope). Catelyn may have come to doubt or question the merits of her motives for taking Tyrion captive, but her reasons for continuing onward (pride, loyalty to family and friends, revenge for Bran, etc.) were perchance too deeply imbedded in her psyche at the time to sway her to turn back from her present course... despite evidence to the contrary that cast reasonable doubt in the verity of Littlefinger's story... as well as the eventual fallout from the decision to capture Tyrion, and thereby shame the Lannister name, which we all know Lord Tywin does not suffer. Both of these I suspect Catelyn envisaged, yet she still pressed on with her original intent upon chancing across Tyrion at the Crossroads.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

There are different levels of trust - in Cat's case - she swallowed LF's bait hook line and sinker - no one asked her to kidnap Tyrion. In fact LF told her specifically that the evidence was flimsy. And her husband also told her that the situation would not inevitably lead to war.

He did tell her to mobilize the North defences - but that was what? Sending 200 archers to guard Moat Cailin etc.. - it wasn't a full scale mobilization. Just a cautionary preparation.

Now all she had to do was to walk away from that inn. If she was worried about her safety, she could have still revealed herself and got herself an escort to take her to Riverrun where her father's Seat was.

Kidnapping Tyrion was the worse possible action she could have taken as she was in effect - initiating War on her own - without having the ability to warn House Stark or House Tully. The last time this happened was when Rhaegar (supposedly) kidnapped Lyanna. Catelyn should have known better. Nonetheless it was a pretty dramatic moment and made for good reading.

What would you do?

Let the man waddle away, the man who paid someone to kill your child. And not just for the hell of it, the attempted murder was just a cover up for another attempted murder. She was also relying on Ned to do sompthing, (i.e. not brake his leg). It was not a kidnap, (as if Lyanna was) it was an arrest for attempted murder. It was an impossible situation she was in, arresting Tyrion was her only move

[Magg the Mighty]

There are different levels of trust - in Cat's case - she swallowed LF's bait hook line and sinker - no one asked her to kidnap Tyrion. In fact LF told her specifically that the evidence was flimsy. And her husband also told her that the situation would not inevitably lead to war.

He did tell her to mobilize the North defences - but that was what? Sending 200 archers to guard Moat Cailin etc.. - it wasn't a full scale mobilization. Just a cautionary preparation.

Now all she had to do was to walk away from that inn. If she was worried about her safety, she could have still revealed herself and got herself an escort to take her to Riverrun where her father's Seat was.

Kidnapping Tyrion was the worse possible action she could have taken as she was in effect - initiating War on her own - without having the ability to warn House Stark or House Tully. The last time this happened was when Rhaegar (supposedly) kidnapped Lyanna. Catelyn should have known better. Nonetheless it was a pretty dramatic moment and made for good reading.

Cat is also facing down someone she thinks is a mortal enemy, without her husband, her sons, her guards, or anyone she can implicitly trust besides Ser Rodrik. That far from home, probably concerned that Tyrion would turn on her at the drop of a hat (or buy her father's bannermen with all that Lannister gold), she seized the moment and acted before (she assumed) he could act. That's why she started off reminding everyone that she was Hoster Tully's daughter, and that each and every single one of them was obligated to her family. Had she just stood up and screamed, "He tried to kill my son, take him!" she probably would have gotten a very different reaction from most of them.

[Melifeather]

Does splattering mud on other characters really make your fav character shine brighter?

No of course she didn't plan to kidnap Tyrion. But the fact of the matter is that she did.

Who asked her to kidnap Tyrion? Who asked her to risk his life and her life + the lives of her escorts - going through the Vale? Who asked her to keep on placing her faith in her crazy sister. It should have been bleeding obvious that Lysa was 3 hooves short of a cow - but yet Cat still refused to relent on her suspicions against the Lannisters.

Look, Cat is many things- a loving mother, a loving wife, a brave woman... but she also has many deficiencies and I'm not sure why some of the other readers have major problems in acknowledging them.

Cat is not my favorite character. That would be Jon, by the way! I started this thread because it was the first question that popped up when I started a reread of aGoT. It's been very interesting so far...all the details that I had missed the first go 'round! But, I digress...

Why would you say Cat has many "deficiencies" as if anyone, real or imagined can be "sufficient"? I would be interested in learning what character(s) you find without deficiencies? Her actions are very human!

I like how someone else on this thread put it, "what would you have done if it were your child?" and "she was making an arrest" which is quite different than how you are portraying it.

[Thrice the Hound]

LF wasn't just sick. He was practically torn in half by Brandon's blade. I don't know about you but if I find a childhood friend who has a sidejob working as a pimp and drug dealer - I gotta be pretty desperate to trust the dude 100%.

I know that lol, I will re-word and exchange sick bed for ICU. Unfortunately Cat wasn't desperate she was just vengeful which made her stupid, she thought she could count on LF's love for her to keep him honest.

You would think she would have throught twice before running off and doing what she did, but nooooooo. She displayed the same stupid impulsive decision making process when she released Jamie obviously not learning her lesson the first time to stay the hell out of highly sensitive political matters. I still think Robb should have had her beheaded for that stunt, in the least she should have been whipped to sate his allies cry of outrage and returned to Winterfell, she cost him dearly with that stupidity. Cat killed both Ned and Robb with her impulsive actions - no brains all emotional determination. Then she has the bald faced adacity to tell Robb what should and shouldn't be in his will. I could go on and on but I wont :D

[Thrice the Hound]

What would you do?

Let the man waddle away, the man who paid someone to kill your child. And not just for the hell of it, the attempted murder was just a cover up for another attempted murder. She was also relying on Ned to do sompthing, (i.e. not brake his leg). It was not a kidnap, (as if Lyanna was) it was an arrest for attempted murder. It was an impossible situation she was in, arresting Tyrion was her only move

See I don't believe that. We are talking about Tyrion Lannister, he isn't about to go missing anytime soon. He did not have to be arrested then and there when he was on his way back to KL.

Ned got his leg messed as a result of Cat snatching his brother. He should have been escorted back to KL and LF would have been forced to either recant his accusations regarding the knife or hold fast to the story. There would have been some kind of hearing before Robert and there would probably be no dead Starks as Jon Arryn's truth would have come out over the letter from Lysa because she would have been called to court and would have cracked like she did with Sansa and spilled her guts. Leaving LF in the cold soon to be beheaded along with Cersei, Jamie and maybe the children or not (depending on how Robert felt at the time).

But there would be no story then. So boo to that. :)

[lyvyathan]

What would you do?

Let the man waddle away, the man who paid someone to kill your child. And not just for the hell of it, the attempted murder was just a cover up for another attempted murder. She was also relying on Ned to do sompthing, (i.e. not brake his leg). It was not a kidnap, (as if Lyanna was) it was an arrest for attempted murder. It was an impossible situation she was in, arresting Tyrion was her only move

Ah, let me put it another way. What if it was Jamie Lannister that was the one accused - and he was standing in front of her. Would she still have been so bold as to order his capture?

The accusation against Tyrion is just that - "an accusation" - and based on evidence which was so flimsy that only someone as moronic as Catelyn or Cersei would have believed it.

So what if it was Tyrion's blade that armed the assasin? Any sensible person would have surmised that it had been stolen or even "planted" - clearly some suspicion should be aroused of course - but you need a lot more evidence before you can kidnap a member of rival powerful faction on it.

It was a kidnap not an arrest because Catelyn did not have the authority to arrest the heir to the most dangerous House in the 7 Kingdoms. Did Ned ask her to kidnap Tyrion? NO. He asked her to hasten back to the North to prepare their defences - not to be a fracking sheriff.

Worse, by kidnapping Tyrion she was precipating a war which Ned was trying to prevent - she did not have the means to warn Ned and her beloved children (not to mention the bannermen) nor House Tully that she was embarking on this hazardous course of actions - which led to terrible consequences.

It was the most ill-conceived plan. Of course, there were many stupid plans hatched by the other characters too. But it really bemuses me to see Cat fans defending her actions tooth and nail.

[lyvyathan]

I like how someone else on this thread put it, "what would you have done if it were your child?" and "she was making an arrest" which is quite different than how you are portraying it.

Let's see - would I take the word of a pimp and then kidnap a dwarf before dragging him across guerilla territory risking my own life to deliver him to my crazy sister and then let him go? No I don't think so.

A better question would have been - "What would Ned do?" Ned is afterall the father of Bran - did he order the arrest of Tyrion? NO!!!!! Think about that for awhile.

[Ran]

Unfortunately Cat wasn't desperate she was just vengeful which made her stupid,

Again, no. She was not motivated by vengeance. If she was motivated by vegneance, she would not have tried to hide her presence from Tyrion in hopes that he would not notice her at the inn and therefore she would be able to slip out without actually having to do anything.

When he spots her, and only after a positive effort on her part to not be spotted, does she act. What, then, is motivating her? It's not vengeance: it's fear. If Tyrion has done what Littlefinger has said he's done, in a way that has convinced both her and Ned, then his knowledge that she was coming up the road from King's Landing was explosive. After all, her visit had been deeply secret. If Cersei learned that Catelyn was secretly in King's Landing... well, that leads to a natural conclusion, doesn't it? She came to tell Ned something that required secrecy, like her son was awake and he just blabbed everything about what he saw, or they captured the catspaw and now they know we tried to kill Bran, etc.

Or so Catelyn imagined. Arresting Tyrion on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder provided the Starks leverage, and prevented the Lannisters from learning that she had been in the city in secret. And note that as far as that goes, it seems to work: Cersei Lannister never seems to realize that Catelyn had met secretly with Ned. That's in part due to Catelyn's actions.

So. No, the evidence is very clear, the arrest was not a matter of revenge. It was a defensive action, not an offensive one.

[Melifeather]

Let's see - would I take the word of a pimp and then kidnap a dwarf before dragging him across guerilla territory risking my own life to deliver him to my crazy sister and then let him go? No I don't think so.

A better question would have been - "What would Ned do?" Ned is afterall the father of Bran - did he order the arrest of Tyrion? NO!!!!! Think about that for awhile.

Your comments give me the impression that you hold a strong view of what's "right" and "wrong", what's "honorable" and "dishonorable" or in your words, "defficient". The books are an exploration of honor and whether or not it can prevail in a world where realpolitiks exists. We are learning what happens to people who conduct themselves with honor and expect other to do so also....they die. The ones that will ultimately survive will adapt, learn skills to use against realpolitik, and I expect them to finally prevail. If GRRM has even the adapted ones perish...I'm not sure I would understand his point. I think there is supposed to be some parallel with today's world also. It's not wrong to be honorable, but I think the lesson so far is, don't expect others to conduct themselves with honor unless you don't mind being dead.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

See I don't believe that. We are talking about Tyrion Lannister, he isn't about to go missing anytime soon. He did not have to be arrested then and there when he was on his way back to KL.

Ned got his leg messed as a result of Cat snatching his brother. He should have been escorted back to KL and LF would have been forced to either recant his accusations regarding the knife or hold fast to the story. There would have been some kind of hearing before Robert and there would probably be no dead Starks as Jon Arryn's truth would have come out over the letter from Lysa because she would have been called to court and would have cracked like she did with Sansa and spilled her guts. Leaving LF in the cold soon to be beheaded along with Cersei, Jamie and maybe the children or not (depending on how Robert felt at the time).

But there would be no story then. So boo to that. :)

Would there be a hearing thou? Why walk into the lions den when your sister is a few yards east of the Kingsroad?

Ah, let me put it another way. What if it was Jamie Lannister that was the one accused - and he was standing in front of her. Would she still have been so bold as to order his capture?

The accusation against Tyrion is just that - "an accusation" - and based on evidence which was so flimsy that only someone as moronic as Catelyn or Cersei would have believed it.

So what if it was Tyrion's blade that armed the assasin? Any sensible person would have surmised that it had been stolen or even "planted" - clearly some suspicion should be aroused of course - but you need a lot more evidence before you can kidnap a member of rival powerful faction on it.

It was a kidnap not an arrest because Catelyn did not have the authority to arrest the heir to the most dangerous House in the 7 Kingdoms. Did Ned ask her to kidnap Tyrion? NO. He asked her to hasten back to the North to prepare their defences - not to be a fracking sheriff.

Worse, by kidnapping Tyrion she was precipating a war which Ned was trying to prevent - she did not have the means to warn Ned and her beloved children (not to mention the bannermen) nor House Tully that she was embarking on this hazardous course of actions - which led to terrible consequences.

It was the most ill-conceived plan. Of course, there were many stupid plans hatched by the other characters too. But it really bemuses me to see Cat fans defending her actions tooth and nail.

First of all, im not really a Cat fan, I am a LS fan, but Cats pretty mean and thought she was queen regent

I see no reason why she would not arrest the KS, it would be a blood bath thou

It was not a kidnap! Tyrion is accused of attempted murder in the North, and arrested in the Vale. Lady Stark has complete judicial power in both of these lands.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Let's see - would I take the word of a pimp and then kidnap a dwarf before dragging him across guerilla territory risking my own life to deliver him to my crazy sister and then let him go? No I don't think so.

A better question would have been - "What would Ned do?" Ned is afterall the father of Bran - did he order the arrest of Tyrion? NO!!!!! Think about that for awhile.

She wasn't in the best mind set during AGOT, can you blame her? And of course with hind sight it was the wrong move, but to argue with hindsight is kinda ridiculous.

What would Ned do?

KS "my bro was arrested under your wife's orders"

Ned "your bro was arrested under my order"

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Re: Vengeance vs defense

"'Now there's a clever man,' Lannister said as he sent the coin spinning across the room. The freerider snatched it from the air. 'And a nimble one to boot,' The dwarf turned back to Masha Heddle. 'You will be able to manage food, I trust?'

'Anything you like, m'ord, anything at all,' the inkeep promised. And may he choke on it, Catelyn thought, but it was Bran she saw choking, drowning in his own blood." GoT pg 244

Now, she makes no move to do anything after she thinks this, and she sits for a second hoping Tyrion won't see her until Marillion draws his attention. But vengeance for Bran is clearly on her mind...Tyrion is a man that she hates at this moment. I think we can clearly see that at least part of her motive here is revenge. The idea that this is purely done for defense comes from making an inference about the fact that she hoped to remain concealed- a fair inference, but not directly supported by Cat's thoughts, while revenge is directly shown to be in her thoughts.

Even assuming her ultimate motive was pure defense, it was not a good strategy. Tyrion is headed to King's Landing, yes, where he can tell the rest of the Lannisters that Cat was in the city. But Catelyn is smart enough that she should be able to weigh the fairly meager cost of the Lannisters in the city knowing she was there against the fairly enormous cost of seizing a son of Tywin Lannister. And Catelyn obviously does understand the repercussions of capturing Tyrion, it's why she flees to the close-by Eyrie instead of far-away Winterfell. Capturing Tyrion is not leverage, it's casus belli- and Cat knows it.

And none of this is a reason to hate Cat, Ned's actions lead to a whole lot more deaths in the long run than Cat's do. But I don't think it is fair to say that she was making a shrewd move here, or that she was not at all motivated by revenge. She was doing something dumb, and she was doing it at least in part for revenge.

[lyvyathan]

Again, no. She was not motivated by vengeance. If she was motivated by vegneance, she would not have tried to hide her presence from Tyrion in hopes that he would not notice her at the inn and therefore she would be able to slip out without actually having to do anything.

When he spots her, and only after a positive effort on her part to not be spotted, does she act. What, then, is motivating her? It's not vengeance: it's fear. If Tyrion has done what Littlefinger has said he's done, in a way that has convinced both her and Ned, then his knowledge that she was coming up the road from King's Landing was explosive. After all, her visit had been deeply secret. If Cersei learned that Catelyn was secretly in King's Landing... well, that leads to a natural conclusion, doesn't it? She came to tell Ned something that required secrecy, like her son was awake and he just blabbed everything about what he saw, or they captured the catspaw and now they know we tried to kill Bran, etc.

Or so Catelyn imagined. Arresting Tyrion on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder provided the Starks leverage, and prevented the Lannisters from learning that she had been in the city in secret. And note that as far as that goes, it seems to work: Cersei Lannister never seems to realize that Catelyn had met secretly with Ned. That's in part due to Catelyn's actions.

So. No, the evidence is very clear, the arrest was not a matter of revenge. It was a defensive action, not an offensive one.

Look. Please think carefully about it. I'm kind of tired trying to explain the situation to every diehard Cat lover. I hope you don't allow your love for your fav character to blind you to the facts.

Yes, Cat does try to evade Tyrion. But the issue is WHAT she does next.

If she was indeed in fear of her life - she could have asked the Inn for an escort to take her to Riverrun, her father's seat - which was much closer than Kings Landing or Casterly Rock. And then ask her father to send her back to Winterfell with a super strong escort that would be able to defend her against a half-man. Anyway, check the map if you don't believe me. See, that would have been a defensive act.

There were a number of things she could have done which would constitute a defensive act but she doesn't do them- instead she KIDNAPS HIM - arresting him on a trumpted up charge. I mean who the hell does she think she is???? The Sheriff of the 7 Kingdoms??? The Hand of the Hand? Does she have any idea what the horrible consequences of her actions will be???? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

All she wants to do is to drag this dangerous dwarf across guerilla territory to bring him to her precious sister whom SHE believes has the key to unlock the whole Lannister Consipiracy problem. Its all there in the book.

When Tyrion questions her about the hazards and the point of the "arrest" - she says something to the effect of "The point is your death". Vengenful much?

Ask yourself why does Catelyn chooses to arrest Tyrion? Which was a pro-active move on her part - its not so much offensive as reactive.

You see Catelyn and Cersei are pretty much the same sort of character - both love their children and will do anything to protect them and will go to extreme lengths to do that. They are also proud, emotional and pretty stupid at times.

Now good characters always have a good "spine", something which drives them. For Ned its his sense of honor. For Theon its for respect. For Tywin its for power. For Catelyn its for her kids - that's what sets them all apart, good or bad. Catelyn will do just about anything to protect her kids - even it means killing them. And that's her tragedy.