Why doesn't Catelyn believe Tyrion's reasoning?

[lyvyathan]

@lyvyathan - Let me address the first thing you say. Flashing Maester Luwin, it is the very definition of pragmatic rationalism. When Ned and Luwin react to her nakedness Cat basically has to tell them , "Grow up. We got business to attend to."

I read your definitions and I stand by what I said.

rash

1 acting or tending to act too hastily or without due consideration.

2. characterized by or showing too great haste or lack of consideration: rash promises.

Synonyms

1. hasty, impetuous, reckless, venturous, incautious, precipitate, indiscreet, foolhardy.

Yeah, grabbing the Imp without knowing what was going on at the Eyrie, with out being able to consult with or at least warn Ned, and above all, no plan, that fits the definition of rash.

The rest of what you wrote??? Who cares? "Text is digital wind..."

I don't like Cat. I don't like her choices and I am going defend them. If it pleases you to think that she rash, irrational, stupid, or emotional, help yourself. People should be happy. I think you have an overly simplistic view of the character, but I don't actually care.

We have the opposite view, you say she is "good" but "irrational", while I do not think Cat is particularly good, but she is obviously intelligent and rational. She makes mistakes, all of the characters do. They all make decisions that sometimes backfire or are based on imcomplete or incorrect information and that is what makes the story good.

Excuse me, but I've already laid out a well set argument for your specific statement. If you don't wish to debate and just brush it aside by saying

"Text is digital wind" Really? Wow, that's that's not a mature response is it? In that case, if you don't want to base your arguments on what's written in the GRRM's books - then why bother even posting in this forum?

In fact, it seems like a very emotional response like a certain character you dislike :D

*** On a side topic - I do find Catelyn a good character - but just because she's good at heart doesn't mean that she'll necessarily make the most rational, reasonable or logical response to most situations. In fact I see her as a very tragic figure - one who tries so hard to "protect her family" but who is so out of her depth that she actually ends up (being partly responsible for) destroying them in the response (- and that goes for Ned/Robb too who do the right but "wrong" thing). That's why I reckon that in the next book Stoneheart will probably be responsible for the death of Sansa - a character whom I also like. ***

I find it bemusing that you seem to want to sidetrack and say all the characters make mistakes - duh, of course they do - but we're on a thread devoted to Catelyn.

Now what is it you said?

The books clearly indicates that seizing Tyrion was the one "rash" decision that Catelyn herself admits she makes without having the time to think all the way through

Try admiting you were wrong instead of coming up with your own version of the English language definition of rash.

[lyvyathan]

Catelyn made the exact opposite of a rash decision there, curiously. She proposes something, the others pointed out the problems associated with, she realizes that their advice was correct, and she decides that they should indeed move on.

What awful behavior.

Hey, maybe it might help if try reading the book for a change?

"Lady Stark, I urge you to press on, with all haste," Ser Willis Wode said, his eyes scanning the ridgetops warily... "We drove them off for the moment, but they will not have gone far."

"We must bury the dead, Ser Willis," she said 'These were brave men. I will not leave them to the crows and shadowcats."

(Note: Apparently she did not seem to think that the shadowcats may take a fancy to live flesh.)

"This soil is too stony for digging." Ser Willis said.

Catelyn, "Then we shall gather stones for cairns"

Gather all the stones you want", Bronn told her, "but do it without me or Chiggen. I've better things to do than pile rocks on dead men..."

"My lady, I fear he speaks the truth," Sir Rodrik said wearily. ... "If we linger here, they will be on us again for a certainty, and we may not live through a second attack."...

Tyrion could see the anger in Catelyn's face, but she had no choice.

"Tyrion could see the anger in Catelyn's face, but she had no choice."

***

In other words, she was forced to comply.

[Ran]

Shameless.

What does she say right after?

"May the gods forgive us, then."

Yes, she's angry -- and we see why, right there, in her very words that follow: because the only reasonable choice, once men with more experience than she in such matters advise her, is to do something that's upsetting. She's angry because these men died for her cause, and now they're being honored by being left for carrion, because that's the only good choice left.

She isn't "forced" by some sort of conspiracy or mutiny. That's not what Tyrion's saying. Rodrik Cassel would stay right where he was. Willis Whent, too, probably, if she insisted. She's "forced" by being informed that her plan won't work, and acknowledging that rationally while finding it an ugly thing to have to do.

But she does it. The action she takes is not to linger there arguing further or insisting they do what she said because she said it. She decides they'll ride immediately. That, my friend, is her decision.

So, of course she's angry. If she was not angry, if she persisted in thinking that they should stay put despite all reason saying otherwise, then she'd be the creature you seem stuck imagining she is.

[lyvyathan]

Shameless. What does she say right after?

Yes, she's angry -- and we see why, right there, in her very words that follow: because the only reasonable choice, once men with more experience than she in such matters advise her, is to do something that's upsetting. She's angry because these men died for her cause, and now they're being honored by being left for carrion, because that's the only good choice left.

She isn't "forced" by some sort of conspiracy or mutiny. That's not what Tyrion's saying. Rodrik Cassel would stay right where he was. Willis Whent, too, probably, if she insisted. She's "forced" by being informed that her plan won't work, and acknowledging that rationally while finding it an ugly thing to have to do.

But she does it. The action she takes is not to linger there arguing further or insisting they do what she said because she said it. She decides they'll ride immediately. That, my friend, is her decision.

So, of course she's angry. If she was not angry, if she persisted in thinking that they should stay put despite all reason saying otherwise, then she'd be the creature you seem stuck imagining she is.

Yeah, well its up to you. You may also wish to note that she chooses to acknowledge the moral sin of the act rather than the sheer foolishness of her order.

She may have said it because she wants to provoke the men to shame and also as you say she's upset about the "sin" - which is something we will agree upon.

But her decision to move on was obviously coerced. That's perhaps why she is angry that her orders are being countermanded and even mocked by Bronn, a common sellsword.

Bronn made it clear that he wouldn't be staying. Rodrick and Waynwood, being more diplomatic, urged her gently to consider.

The fact that she does comply should be tempted with that in mind - But I think that if she decided to ignore their pleadings - they, with the exception of Bronn and his friend and probably Tyrion, would have faced certain death or a fate worse than death.

Anyway try and ponder the previous text which describe her absolute determination in ordering the men to bury the corpses - which she demands twice despite being told its not possible and too dangerous by her soldiers. And note that she does (not) acknowledge the utter ineptitude of her original decision.

Now - to me - this sidestory was written to demonstrate that Catelyn was a good (but naive/ impractical) person. Her desire to bury the bodies of the men who sacrificed their lives for her was (I agree) extremely noble and courageous but also demonstrably (stupid/) displayed an extremely poor sense of judgement.

And that's part of GRRM's inherent design in the books - which is (partly) about the story of good but naive people who succumb to failure because of their "sense of honor", "love for family", or "humanity". A lot of good stories are about "Dorothys" landing in places which isn't Kansas :D

You might like to compare that with Ned's fateful decision to tell Cersei to escape and flee because he knows about her incestuous and traitorous relationship with her brother. His sense of honor/nobility made him feel pity for Cersei's children (and for "Daenerys") and caused him to forewarn Cersei of his intentions. Except of course in his case, he had no one (not counting Renly) to dissuade him from that foolish act.

I'll urge you - as one of my mentors did - to read not superficially but to read and think deeply - otherwise we'd just be grasping at straws that people like LittleFinger throw.

[chavalah]

I highly disagree that Catelyn wants to "shame the men;" that seems to be superimposing assumptions onto her character. Just because she is a woman with a dissenting opinion doesn't mean that she wants to "shame the men" into agreeing.

Westeros, like medieval Europe, is a place that takes the gods seriously. In Catelyn's interpretation (and probably more than just hers, if you look at the Starks and the Tullys,) it dishonors the gods and these noble men who fought for her to leave their bodies out for carrion. It's something that is worth considering because Westeros doesn't view morality as foolish, but as something that should be upheld. Granted, there are plenty of immoral people in Westeros who gain the upper hand by ignoring this sense of morality. But Catelyn--and the Starks--don't want to "win" this way. They put that sense of morality, honor and duty first because it's most important to them.

Sure, from the standpoint of the Lannisters, say, to "win" no matter the cost--or yes, even to survive, a la Ned knowing about Cersei's adultery--the choice to prize honor over "logic" is stupid. But characters don't always play by the same rules or value the same things. That, also, is the point of these stories, imho. If you want to win/survive, no matter the cost, then obviously Lannister is the way to go. But if you value honor and morality, even to the point of self-sacrifice, then the Starks are just staying true to themselves and a higher calling. It's a lot more complicated than just calling these characters "stupid" or "smart,." It really depends on your certain point of view, to quote from another fantasy figure. :P And usually the plot twists in ASOIAF come from a group effort of various, individual actions anyway.

I see this passage as Catelyn being in conflict with herself, to paraphrase one of GRRM's lines. He is more interested in the decisions people make and why, rather than labeling them "good" or "evil," "right" or "wrong." In this instance, Cat's sense of morality and honor strongly urges her to bury the dead. It's something that's highly important to her, which is why she doesn't just give it up when the first person says "no." But when she hears some measured reasoning for why staying to bury the dead would ultimately curtail their larger goal then she agrees with them. Just because she doesn't like the option of leaving the dead to carrion doesn't mean that she doesn't see the larger picture. If she didn't, like Ran said, she would have stayed.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I am going to try to keep this brief. I will fail but just know I tried. I made a few mistakes in my previous posts.

One, I said that "books clearly indicates that seizing Tyrion was the one "rash" decision" that Cat made, as if there is one and only interpretation of the of what is being said or what happens in the text. Actually there can be many interpretations of everything that happens. Each individual reader will see what they see, and saying that anything GRRM writes "clearly indicates" is usually a mistake.

Like the bedroom scene with Cat, Ned and Luwin. To ME it is obviously an example of Lady Star breaking with social convention because there is GOOD REASON to do so. It was offered as an example of her rashness. It's not a big decision or an important event, and therefore not even remotely what I meant when I said "one rash decsion", in fact I consider it event so trivial that it is absurb to treat it as an example of her supposed pattern of rashness and irrationality. But I wasn't clear about big decisions, and I stated it as if there were only on way to see it. My interpretaion of the event itself is the opposite of rash or irrational, I say Ned and Luwin were being silly, Cat was being practical. Other may see it differently.

Another event used to supposedly illustrate Cat's rashness or irrationality was the decision to leave the dead unburied following the man clan's attack on the way tothe Eyrie. I think that dwelling over much on this is event is giving it too much significance, however, once again, when the REASONS to break with religious and social convention are made clear, Lady Stark sees SENSE and goes along. The fact that she engages in dialogue and is ultimately convinced by good arguments tends to show that she is in her right mind, not that she is irrational. The fact that she is still angry at the end of the exchange is irrelevant. The compromise where one or both of the parties is not at least a little angry or disappointed is the exception not the rule. immediately prior to the fight Cat allow Tyrion to have a weapon, but the REASONS for arming him outweih the REASON not to arm him. Following the fight she alows himto eep the wapon because it makes SENSE to do so.

Later during Tyrion's so-called trial, it seems obvious that Lady Arryn is seeing wht she want to see rather than what is actually unfolding before her eyes, while Cat seems to be perceiving reality with perfect clarity. She sees, for instance, that it is a mistake to have the entire court present for Tyrion's statement, she recognize very early that the old knight is doomed against the young sellsword, and she realizes exactly how Lysa has played into Tyrion's hands. At no point does she seem to be anything but clear eyed and rational.

Before we leave the Eyrie and move on to my next mistake, I want to restate my answer to the 'thesis" question of this thread. I think that Cat does listen toTyrion's reasoning and she realizes that it makes some sense. It just isn't enough to make her chage couse right away, and before she has a chance to get any more of the truth event spin completely out of her control.

Two, I said that "I will defend Catelyn's decsions" when I meant to say "I will not defend her decisions." That was a simple typo. I won' t efend her partly because I am not a Cat fan, but mainly because I think that some of her big decsions were clearly mistakes and I think GRRM meant them to be taken as such. No need to defend blunders.

Three I said that "Text is digital wind" without clarifying my meaning. By TEXT I meant posted comments by fans, which is ultimately opinion and therefore digital winds. I did not meant the text of the books.

This central idea of this post. We veered off topic into a discussion of whether or not CAt is irrational. Our friend Lyvyathan posted a list off Cat's mistakes, blunders, bad choices as evidence that she is irration. Saying a thing does not make it true. Labeling actions irrational states an opinion. That is why I called his post "digital wind."

@Lyvyathan - I think that arguing opinion is tedious, tiresome, foolish but most of all boring. I have heard you opinion. "She is irrational" thanks for sharing. In the previous post, after I illustrated how you were only looking at one possible interpretaion of the "bedroom" and "burial" scenes because of your bias toward the "Irrational Cat" theory I saw no need to continue debunking your flawed premise. Your logic is "she was wrong here, and she blundered there, therefore she is irrational." You could just as well say, "1 + 1 = 2, and 2 + 2 =4, therefore Pumpkin Pie!" "Irrational" is still just your opinion. You have proved nothing.

@Everybody again - And fourth, I coupled the release of Jamie Lannister and Robb's decision to continue the war or sue for peace. That was careless of me. The moment were Cat thinks that Robb has possibly blundered and missed the chance to end the war was at the end of AGoT when Robb listens to that paragon of wisdom and rationality Great John Umber, and Cat says something to the affect of "I came so close but the moment was lost." My bad, I knew that it wasn't the same thing but I mark that as the moment where I think Cat started thinking that too much blood has already spilled and spilling more will not accomplish anything. She doubt whether the war was worth it, which culminated in free-lancing her own policy move. The decision to gamble on Tyrion's "offer" is a milestone on Cat's "journey" if you will but it was not "suing for peace" nor was it intended to "bring about peace." She was trying to exchange her daughters before they became casualties in a foolish (her perspective) war . My previous statement was imprecise.

[Melifeather]

Before we leave the Eyrie and move on to my next mistake, I want to restate my answer to the 'thesis" question of this thread. I think that Cat does listen toTyrion's reasoning and she realizes that it makes some sense. It just isn't enough to make her chage couse right away, and before she has a chance to get any more of the truth event spin completely out of her control.

I tend to agree with this assessment. She does realize that Tyrion is making sense, but not enough, and then circumstances prevent her from changing course.

[lyvyathan]

I highly disagree that Catelyn wants to "shame the men;" that seems to be superimposing assumptions onto her character. Just because she is a woman with a dissenting opinion doesn't mean that she wants to "shame the men" into agreeing.

Yes, ok. She was probably voicing her frustration at not being able to do the right thing. Saying "she wanted to shame the men" is a bit of a stretch I admit.

Westeros, like medieval Europe, is a place that takes the gods seriously. In Catelyn's interpretation (and probably more than just hers, if you look at the Starks and the Tullys,) it dishonors the gods and these noble men who fought for her to leave their bodies out for carrion. It's something that is worth considering because Westeros doesn't view morality as foolish, but as something that should be upheld. Granted, there are plenty of immoral people in Westeros who gain the upper hand by ignoring this sense of morality. But Catelyn--and the Starks--don't want to "win" this way. They put that sense of morality, honor and duty first because it's most important to them.

Sure, from the standpoint of the Lannisters, say, to "win" no matter the cost--or yes, even to survive, a la Ned knowing about Cersei's adultery--the choice to prize honor over "logic" is stupid. But characters don't always play by the same rules or value the same things. That, also, is the point of these stories, imho. If you want to win/survive, no matter the cost, then obviously Lannister is the way to go. But if you value honor and morality, even to the point of self-sacrifice, then the Starks are just staying true to themselves and a higher calling. It's a lot more complicated than just calling these characters "stupid" or "smart,." It really depends on your certain point of view, to quote from another fantasy figure. :P And usually the plot twists in ASOIAF come from a group effort of various, individual actions anyway.

lol Obi Wan. Well, talking out loud - that does seem to the thread of "honor" vs "practicality" running through the stories. "Doing the right thing" vs "expediency". Robb's decision to marry (the woman he slept with) rather than the Frey's daughter was another example. There's a fine line between honor and foolishness. And thanks to GRRM ASOIAF is filled with plenty of characters with plenty of grey. Again it depends upon the strength of the sympathy or empathy for the characters as to how you wish to view them - as its obvious, I have very little of both for Catelyn Stark. And so the glaring features for me is her negative traits. I do not doubt, however, that she is a good but flawed person who makes terrible unfortunate and tragic decisions.

I see this passage as Catelyn being in conflict with herself, to paraphrase one of GRRM's lines. He is more interested in the decisions people make and why, rather than labeling them "good" or "evil," "right" or "wrong." In this instance, Cat's sense of morality and honor strongly urges her to bury the dead. It's something that's highly important to her, which is why she doesn't just give it up when the first person says "no." But when she hears some measured reasoning for why staying to bury the dead would ultimately curtail their larger goal then she agrees with them. Just because she doesn't like the option of leaving the dead to carrion doesn't mean that she doesn't see the larger picture. If she didn't, like Ran said, she would have stayed.

You would be totally right if it was Catelyn who was having an inner struggle or dialogue with herself over the decision to bury the dead. But in this case - it was Catelyn('s stubborness) vs her bannerman's and escort soldiers (pragmatism). Here we have Catelyn ordering the men to do the act twice- despite already being acutely aware of the precarious situation they were in - and being repeatedly told it wasn't possible. And also the fact that Bronn and the other sellsword were point blank refusing to obey her orders; in effect a mutiny.

On a sidenote - I remember a similar scene in J. Cooper's "Last of the Mohicans" where Hawkeye refuses to bury the bodies of his settler friends despite the urges of Monroe's daughter and gets berated as a savage.

You might wish to ameliorate the negative aspects of Catelyn's actions as "a higher calling" - and I'd agree with that. But there's also another side of the coin to it as well - which is compounded by her other actions.

You make mention of the grim reality of Westeros - and you'd have to wonder how "people of higher calling" would actually survive in that dog eat dog world.

But should it be a debate between "idealism" vs "pragmatism"? "white vs black"?

Of course its always interesting to see the rationale behind the actions of characters - LF, Tywin, Tyrion, Robb, Sansa, Catelyn, Ned, Theon even Ramsay - always interesting to see what makes people tick. But it shouldn't preclude us from passing judgement on them. The road to hell is paved with good intentions?

I see the theme of "idealism (for lack of a better word) vs "pragmatism" and cold hard reality in GRRM works - you see that in Daenerys' dream of conquering the 7 kingdoms to gain her "birth right" and struggling to do the right thing in ruling Meereen and releasing the slaves from bondage which causes further bloodshed.

Another example would be Bronn's fight against Ser Vardis Egen - where a dismayed Lysa would exclaim "You don't fight with honor!" and Bronn's classic laconic response.

It depends upon your point of view mayhaps? :D

Anyway its late. Time to bed.

[Howling Mad]

In my opinion, Catelyn really knew that Tyrion was telling the truth, but just couldn't face it, or else she'd have to admit to herself and others that she led 6 men to their deaths for absolutely nothing. And since Tyrion is clever as hell and there is no total absolute way for her to find out whether he is speaking the truth, it's easier to just consider him a liar.

Plus, like HenryPotter said, she was basically "all-in" with this move. But I think not too far deep-down, she knew the truth. No turning back though at this point.

Right before she entered the Vale, her POV:

...Two score men flanked the dwarf and the rest of her ragged band, knights and men-at-arms in service to her sister Lysa and Jon Arryn's young son, and yet Tyrion betrayed no hint of fear. Could I be wrong? Catelyn wondered, not for the first time. Could he be innocent after all, of Bran and Jon Arryn and all the rest? And if he was, what did that make her? Six men had died to bring him here.

Resolute, she pushed her doubts away.

I agree, Cat had to finish her trip to Eyrie to obtain more men and provisions. Cat had no idea her whack job of a sister would push to have Tyrion tried and executed.

[lyvyathan]

@Lyvyathan - I think that arguing opinion is tedious, tiresome, foolish but most of all boring. I have heard you opinion. "She is irrational" thanks for sharing. In the previous post, after I illustrated how you were only looking at one possible interpretaion of the "bedroom" and "burial" scenes because of your bias toward the "Irrational Cat" theory I saw no need to continue debunking your flawed premise. Your logic is "she was wrong here, and she blundered there, therefore she is irrational." You could just as well say, "1 + 1 = 2, and 2 + 2 =4, therefore Pumpkin Pie!" "Irrational" is still just your opinion. You have proved nothing.

If you can't debate, obfuscate eh? Heehee, I find you amusing. Face it you can't handle the truth. Goodbye.

[Jovem Corvo]

See I don't believe that. We are talking about Tyrion Lannister, he isn't about to go missing anytime soon. He did not have to be arrested then and there when he was on his way back to KL.

Ned got his leg messed as a result of Cat snatching his brother. He should have been escorted back to KL and LF would have been forced to either recant his accusations regarding the knife or hold fast to the story. There would have been some kind of hearing before Robert and there would probably be no dead Starks as Jon Arryn's truth would have come out over the letter from Lysa because she would have been called to court and would have cracked like she did with Sansa and spilled her guts. Leaving LF in the cold soon to be beheaded along with Cersei, Jamie and maybe the children or not (depending on how Robert felt at the time).

But there would be no story then. So boo to that. :)

LOL are you serious? Do you really think this would happen?

Robert was a weak king. He would not dare go against Tyrion - he was a Lannister and Tywin was the one lending money to Robert's banquets. You saw how he took the good option in Lady's case.

Lysa would never confirm anything. Littlefinger wouldn't let her tell what they've done together for Jon Arryn.

Catelyn did the right thing under her circunstances. The problem is that Littlefinger is a dick.

[winterbird]

I think at least part of it is wishful thinking. Petyr is supposed to be helping Ned down in King's Landing. So if Petyr lied to her about the dagger what else is he lying about? I think she wants it to be Tyrion's dagger because she wants LF to be on her side.

Also when you look at the Tully words Family. Duty. Honor. I think she assumes that this would have rubbed off on LF as he was her father's ward. It also makes him close to her like family and she can't imagine he'd betray her like that. (maybe she is just too used to Ned and his Honor and mistakes Petyr of being honorable as well). But the other side of the Family. Duty. Honor. means that she would also be expecting this from Tyrion. Putting HIS family first. Tyrion all but confirms this when he says, "I never bet against my family."

And don't forget he's called the Imp. Even if she was curteous to him when he was her guest, his reputation preceeds him as being devious. (think about how the small folk talk about him in King's Landing. People are inclined to believe the worst of him).

But I do think she comes to believe him eventually. I see that preceeding later when she makes the comment later in the third book about how she trusted Tyrion's honor and not Jamie's.

I can't be a fair judge though. Catelyn is one of my least favorite characters as I've always found her judgmental and too rigid.

[Punchslap]

Is it too simplistic to say the answer to the question is that it furthered the plot? I think some of the reaction against Catelyn is because Tyrion is a popular character and readers know she's wrong--it's difficult to sympathise with a character who you know has come to the wrong conclusion.

[Mulled Wino]

In my opinion, Catelyn really knew that Tyrion was telling the truth, but just couldn't face it, or else she'd have to admit to herself and others that she led 6 men to their deaths for absolutely nothing. And since Tyrion is clever as hell and there is no total absolute way for her to find out whether he is speaking the truth, it's easier to just consider him a liar.

Plus, like HenryPotter said, she was basically "all-in" with this move. But I think not too far deep-down, she knew the truth. No turning back though at this point.

Right before she entered the Vale, her POV:

...Two score men flanked the dwarf and the rest of her ragged band, knights and men-at-arms in service to her sister Lysa and Jon Arryn's young son, and yet Tyrion betrayed no hint of fear. Could I be wrong? Catelyn wondered, not for the first time. Could he be innocent after all, of Bran and Jon Arryn and all the rest? And if he was, what did that make her? Six men had died to bring him here.

Resolute, she pushed her doubts away.

This. She wouldnt admit it to herself.

Even lf and ned told her that the evidence was flimsy. All signs screamed mistake but Cat, being so high on her own opinions couldnt face the blatent truth.

[DKNC]

@lyvyathan - Let me address the first thing you say. Flashing Maester Luwin, it is the very definition of pragmatic rationalism. When Ned and Luwin react to her nakedness Cat basically has to tell them , "Grow up. We got business to attend to."

I read your definitions and I stand by what I said.

rash

1 acting or tending to act too hastily or without due consideration.

2. characterized by or showing too great haste or lack of consideration: rash promises.

Synonyms

1. hasty, impetuous, reckless, venturous, incautious, precipitate, indiscreet, foolhardy.

Yeah, grabbing the Imp without knowing what was going on at the Eyrie, with out being able to consult with or at least warn Ned, and above all, no plan, that fits the definition of rash.

The rest of what you wrote??? Who cares? "Text is digital wind..."

I don't like Cat. I don't like her choices and I am going defend them. If it pleases you to think that she rash, irrational, stupid, or emotional, help yourself. People should be happy. I think you have an overly simplistic view of the character, but I don't actually care.

We have the opposite view, you say she is "good" but "irrational", while I do not think Cat is particularly good, but she is obviously intelligent and rational. She makes mistakes, all of the characters do. They all make decisions that sometimes backfire or are based on imcomplete or incorrect information and that is what makes the story good.

Imp Beyond the Wall,

Interestingly enough, Catelyn is my favorite character and yet I had to reply to tell you that your assessments of her behavior/decisions/rationale in this thread have been my favorites! While I love her dearly, she is certainly not infallible, and some of her most ardent defenders seem as oblivious to that fact as her ardent haters are blind to all her good qualities. For instance, her attitude toward Jon Snow, while understandable, is still horrible, and I hated her myself upon first meeting her. Jon has every right to hate her as that's the only aspect of her that actually affects him. For myself, as I got to know this complex character, I have found much more to love about her, and simply accept that she is terribly flawed in that particular relationship. (Interestingly enough, this makes her more realistic to me, if certainly not more likable.)

So, I am perfectly happy to have you dislike Cat while I adore her, and to disagree on her relative amount of "goodness" lol. These are subjective feelings, and as you said, "people should be happy". I just want to say that I very much enjoyed your objective and well-reasoned posts on this thread about her actions regarding Tyrion and a few other little instances (eg. flashing Luwin, lol). Your depth of understanding for a character you don't particularly like is wonderful, and indicates you read ALL of the chapters closely rather than skimming over any POV's that aren't your personal favorites. The STORY is what is truly phenomenal in these books and every character is important to it. The characters being so complex and often twisted makes the story better.

Anyway, I believe that love her or hate her, Catelyn is one of GRRM's finest creations or she wouldn't inspire so much debate---dumb, brilliant, vengeful, loving, evil, good, emotional, rational . . . heavens, read enough posts and she's absolutely everything!! She certainly is used to move the story along in the direction GRRM wants to send it, and nothing ever seems artificial or contrived about her.

So kudos to you on maintaining a rational, thoughtful discussion of a character instead of the "I hate/love this character and everyone who doesn't is wrong!!" type thread I've so commonly come across since finding this website. I'd love to read your thoughts on other characters in the book, because I suspect that even if we "feel" differently about them, we'd find a lot of common ground in thinking about their motivations, actions, etc.

I had to edit the post to fix the spelling of phenomenal which I realized I had butchered AFTER I posted. sigh.