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Plotholes and inconsistencies that bother you (the most)


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One thing that has bothered me is Littlefinger's motivation for lying about the dagger.

I can get his motivation for every other thing he does: masterminding Arryn's death, participating in the assassination of Joffrey, betraying Ned, etc. All of these things either preserves or advances his status and power.

But attributing the dagger to Tyrion, instead of Robert? I have a hard time seeing how the lie serves him better than the truth in this instance. He obviously knows that Robert wouldn't have tried to kill Bran, so it is not like he's worried he'd lose his status here; plus, he makes a dangerous enemy in the Imp.

Maybe he didn't think Tyrion was dangerous enough. He probably thought Tyrion would die at the hands of Lysa in the Eyrie.

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8,000 Unsullied, the best infantry in the world, make a huge impact for Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay during ASOS, yet they may as well not exist by the time of ADWD. Why didn't she attack the Yunkai'i? Why didn't a single commander take into account how the Unsullied could goddamn destroy any force sent against them if fought infantry vs infantry? Is the fact that they are deployed for a very ineffective city watch (Since they fight best rank on rank and not single fighting in the dark.) an actual plot hole or is it just a result from Dany's incompetence? The Yunkai'i couldn't have amassed that many soldiers at first though, and even taking her incompetence into account, she still has Barristan and other commanders to advise her.

That occurred to me, but I don't think it's a plot hole.

Daenerys had the advantage of taking her opponents on Slavers' Bay by surprise in ASOS. Now she hasn't.

Her Unsullied are excellent soldiers, but there are only 8,000 of them. She has an unknown number of freedmen, and 1,000 sellswords (half of whom swtich sides).

Were she only facing Yunkai, she could make short work of them. We don't know how big their army is, but it's ridiculous. They have 5,500 sellswords, however, mostly cavalry, who are efficient, if potentially disloyal. Even with the sellswords fighting against her, I believe Dany's forces are sufficient to win.

However, there are vast (and much better) forces ranged against her on top of that. Six legions from New Ghis, for example, plus forces from Qarth, Tolos, and Mantarys. I don't know if the New Ghis legions are the same size as Roman legions. If so, that's 30,000 men, who are reckoned to be pretty good. In addition, there's a fleet blockading Mereen, and there's an enemy within, among the free Mereenese population.

So, Daenerys' decision to withstand a siege is at least understandable. It's only really quite late in the book that the Pale Mare starts to ravage the besieging forces, and of course, Victarion's fleet is closing in. We know (and Tyrion and Jorah come to realise) that the besiegers are now very weak, but Ser Barristan and the other commanders don't yet realise how weak they are (let alone that Victarion is about to strike them) even though they've resolved to attack.

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Maybe he didn't think Tyrion was dangerous enough. He probably thought Tyrion would die at the hands of Lysa in the Eyrie.

Littlefinger also states at one point that sometimes it's worth simply doing things just so you confuse people.

The only one that vexes me is the one already mentioned re. the size of the Iron Islands. That's the one part of the map I'd like redrawn.

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People are confusing a plot hole with something that just doesn't make sense or is poorely written. Plot Hole is something in a story that doesn't make sense, but is only there to drive along the plot. Like Biff from Back to the future being able to go back in time, even though it was explained 2 minutes later that it was an impossibility. It only worked for Biff and is impossible to everyone else. It only happened because the plot needed it to. That is a hole. It makes no real sense, you can't even explain it.

I think the quickness that Varys and Illyrio speak/spy can be one. It seems word can travel from Illyrio to Varys abd back again in the same time it takes 1 person to even sail one way. Or how every kid in King's landing is a spy..yet no person has the same spy..nor do they find time to meet their spys (besides varys).

Until we find out how Euron made it to/around the area of Valyria, I would consider that a plot hole. It is clearly mentioned that it was unsailable and impossible to get to..but 1 man was able to do it. The fact he was just "able to" is a plot hole.

Others..like kids 10 years old competing in combat with fully trained adults..whily very unrealistic isn't really a hole. I could see 13-15 being a better age to say such things..but 10..eh.

Jon Connington getting Grey scale by just putting his hand in the river and contracting the disease, but Tyrion to fell full in and drank some..walks away clean..not sure how something like that can happen..but who knows..

All I can think of.

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Well, there's this passage from ACoK (Theon, 24):

“Is it that way, then?” she said, eyeing him boldly. There were women on the iron Islands-not many, but a few-who crewed the longships along with their men, and it was said that salt and sea changed them, gave them a man’s appetites.

Fair enough it says there are women crewing the ships, not captaining them - I guess I extrapolated. But, either way, I still find the isolated case of Asha somewhat contractitory, even considering she had Balon's full support.

Now, please note that I have nothing against Asha, quite the opposite! I actually buy her as a captain because... well, because she's to cool to dismiss. :P But, even so, I cannot help but feel that her story is pushing it a little bit...

Interesting, I didn't remember that passage.

I definitely see what you mean about Asha, but I think that Victarion, Aeron and Euron might actually represent the "ultra-conservative" sect of the Iron Islands rather than the majority, so their attitudes towards women and the atmospheres on their ships may not give us the right impression. Remember at the Kingsmoot Asha promises them peace and harvest instead of the "old way," and so many people cheer for her that Aeron legitimately fears she's going to win. Euron basically only wins because he promises dragons and the Westerosi equivalent of world domination. Aeron and Vic are really the only ones running around saying a gal can't rule...Balon wanted her as an heir, people cheer her name at the Kingsmoot, that Goodbrother guy's maester was also pushing her claim. That's just the impression I got though.

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That occurred to me, but I don't think it's a plot hole.

Daenerys had the advantage of taking her opponents on Slavers' Bay by surprise in ASOS. Now she hasn't.

Her Unsullied are excellent soldiers, but there are only 8,000 of them. She has an unknown number of freedmen, and 1,000 can (half of whom swtich sides).

Were she only facing Yunkai, she could make short work of them. We don't know how big their army is, but it's ridiculous. They have 5,500 sellswords, however, mostly cavalry, who are efficient, if potentially disloyal. Even with the sellswords fighting against her, I believe Dany's forces are sufficient to win.

However, there are vast (and much better) forces ranged against her on top of that. Six legions from New Ghis, for example, plus forces from Qarth, Tolos, and Mantarys. I don't know if the New Ghis legions are the same size as Roman legions. If so, that's 30,000 men, who are reckoned to be pretty good. In addition, there's a fleet blockading Mereen, and there's an enemy within, among the free Mereenese population.

So, Daenerys' decision to withstand a siege is at least understandable. It's only really quite late in the book that the Pale Mare starts to ravage the besieging forces, and of course, Victarion's fleet is closing in. We know (and Tyrion and Jorah come to realise) that the besiegers are now very weak, but Ser Barristan and the other commanders don't yet realise how weak they are (let alone that Victarion is about to strike them) even though they've resolved to attack.

Victarion basically was thinking by the time he's closing in that he needs to take Dany and get the hell out of there because Volantis' fleet is right behind him. Victarion will have a very hard time doing that since Dany isn't even there, so a naval battle is pretty much guaranteed.

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You can always eat meat and drink blood. Hey, with all the wolf warging going on it is time to bring in the vampires.

But then how do the animals survive? Preserved/frozen meat will only last so long and living animals - both wild and domesticated - would be starving and dying as well.

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Inconsistencies I don´t like:

...

-Illyrio and Varys being so well-informed of Aegon and Dany movements despite the enormous distances, particularly Illyrio learning so fast that Dany was in Qarth, and later NOT learning that she was staying in Meereen.

An interesting point... If you think that Varys keeping many raven-utilizing "little birds" in the Free Cities (from when he operated in Essos) doesn't explain how well well informed he is (I'm not entirely in this camp)... Then consider this: Maybe Varys being sold to a Sorcerer isn't the whole story. Maybe Varys actually apprenticed to the Sorcerer (even if as his slave as well) before the cutting that may or may not have happened. In this case, Varys maybe using an Obsidian/Dragonglass candle like Marwyn. Illyrio has the money and trading network to acquire one if Varys can use it.

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In the whole King's Landing storyline in AGoT Ned isn't cautious. Being honorable and being cautious isn't mutually exclusive.

- He is made Hand of the King against his will.

- He is warned by Littlefinger

- He finds out Jon Arryn has been murdered

- The attempt to assassinate Bran occurs

- Catelyn shows up in King's Landing

- He discovers about the incest

- His guard is murdered when Catelyn arrests Tyrion

At this point Ned should have waited until Catelyn, Sansa and Arya are safely in Winterfell before confronting Robert/or Cersei about the incest. Especially after saying the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.

If he had waited untill Robert is dead and Joffrey had been crowned, he could have resigned as Hand of the King and informed Stannis about the incest. Stupid Ned.

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Bran's fall is perfectly possible too. There are true accounts of people falling out of planes and surviving after their parachutes didn't open. Fiction is a breeding ground for unlikelihood.

Last year here in New York some young guy tried to committ suicide by jumping off a 39 story building and lived.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/crash_pad_car_VSzuXq1TVLsfwZbAQhFKaP?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

And the year before that a window washer fell from 47 stories and lived

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=5036727&page=1.

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As much as I disliked the Lannisters in book I, I never found myself able to hold them responsible for Robert's death, despite Martin's best efforts. That fat slob guzzled down wineskin after wineskin, and he must have known that it was fortified because Cersei somewhere mentions how he loved it. IMHO it is entirely his own fault he got killed

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That of all the people who attended the Tourney at Harrenhall in the year of the false Spring, Catelyn Tully did not attend. Especially when one considers Harrenhall is part of the Riverlands/Tully territory, that nearly all of the Great Lords of Westeros attend, or their children do.

Are you certain the Tullys did not attend? I don't recall it being mentioned that they weren't there. Just because it they weren't mentioned, doesn't mean they weren't there. I don't recall Catelyn ever really thinking of Lyanna, so they may never have met...indirect evidence? I'm just not sure that there's proof either way.

Cersei. Of course she wouldn't be there. I doubt any of the Lannisters were there. Tywin was still furious at Aerys for letting Jaime join the Kings Guard (not to mention the earlier rebuke of Cersei for Rhaegar)....

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Whether or not Dany is immune to fire. I wish GRRM would make up his freaking mind. He spent the whole first book working up to her immunity - bathing in scalding water, picking up the piping hot dragon eggs, walking onto Drogo's pyre to emerge unscathed. But then afterwards he says that it was a one off.

Urgh! Is she or isn't she? Make up your mind, GRRM! Why not simply say that it is a Targaryen trait but it's a recessive gene so not many of Targaryens have it? That would have solved the issue.

(And let's please not get into another debate on the issue. There are whole threads about it. I'm just stating here that this inconsistency gets on my nerves.)

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Whether or not Dany is immune to fire. I wish GRRM would make up his freaking mind. He spent the whole first book working up to her immunity - bathing in scalding water, picking up the piping hot dragon eggs, walking onto Drogo's pyre to emerge unscathed. But then afterwards he says that it was a one off

Don't remember about any baths in GOT but as for the eggs you're confusing the show with the book, she never picked up any scalding dragon eggs in the book

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It always bugged me that Catelyn was generally quite smart, but blamed Tyrion for Bran. Even if you assume that she trusted Littlefinger implicitly (which she has no good reason to), the dagger could so easily have been lost, stolen, sold, lost in another wager.........really didn't buy it that she'd be that stupid.

Even that's not a huge one for me........reading this thread, I'd say GRRM has done a very good job of keeping it pretty holeless.

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