Sandor Clegane v.19

[brashcandy]

Last posts from thread 18:

From R&R:

I honestly don't see Sandor as being a particularly skilled lover, by which I mean having a squee amount of bedroom skillz. I assume that for the most part he's only ever dealt with his sexual needs with whores and, sadly, but this is the way of warriors, even though there's nothing in the text to affirm or deny, via post battle rape, as soldiers tend to do.

For all those assumptions, Sandor is a man who is clearly undergoing much in the way of personal changes, and the text does support that he is capable of a "not ungentle" touch. So I suppose there is the hope that if SanSanage does occur that he doesn't simply take her brutally. Then again, it's difficult to suss what, exactly, fuels the fires of the fandom.

From bgona:

Somethig about a maid? I´m going to reread everything about the hound to find out!!!!!

Anyway, I just can´t see the washer women talking about that. Sandor visited whores, that is all we know.

About the: "younger and faster" I just took as a proof of Sandor loosing favor and power on Joffrey´s. They were beginning to go each one in different paths.Also it is show that the Imp was getting what he want: Sandor away of Joffrey. Ad people just take notice that Sandor is been replaced by one younger and faster, even they really haven´t see it in a real combat or in a tourney. While they had see Sandor warriors skills at many.

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Something was on my head: why Sandor starts talking with Sansa? What have changed inside him to do it?

I just believe that in the tourney when he proves in front of everybody how was his brother and he fight him, something changed inside him. But this will have a point if Sandor speaks to Sansa after the second day. However, it was the opposite, after speaking with Sansa, something changed inside him. He react in a more honorable behaviour saving Loras.

And also, in that first conversation, something got in Sansa. She knew that he was going to win everybody. She begun to havean unbreakable faith on The Hound. So just in that fist night was created a bound between them.

And MaryaStone has added hers below

[1234567]

So only one thread behind R+J=L.......

If Sandor is alive, what do you think the significance of him being the gravedigger is?

Laying old ghosts to rest? Making up for the lives he has taken? Or is he burying his past?

[brashcandy]

So only one thread behind R+J=L.......

If Sandor is alive, what do you think the significance of him being the gravedigger is?

Laying old ghosts to rest? Making up for the lives he has taken? Or is he burying his past?

Rapsie, I think it comes back to the Serwyn of the mirror shield connection, a sense of being haunted by the ones you killed (paying penance), but yes, also burying the past. The fact that his helm is out there still involved in atrocities and murders could be Martin's way of saying that we can never fully escape our past, but we can atone for it.

[brashcandy]

In fact, it's very interesting how Sandor's past, present and future are all connected to the helm. He's on the QI trying to atone for his sins, but his helm is out there making more of them, and this will impact on the way people see him and his future prospects of settling down and having a happy life. Sansa also has his bloody cloak. So do people have a thing for keeping objects related to this man? :) And how does the bloody cloak stack up against the dog's helm? Do each represent the same thing, or does it come down to whose possession the object is in?

[MaryaStone]

The last book is supposed to be called A Dream of Spring and Sansa kept Sandor's clock ( a hint at a symbolic marrige?) in her cedar chest. It's said that girls put away things in cedar chests to form a troussea for their future marriage.

Sansa placed the cloak under her summer silks, as if she wanted to keep a hope (and the cedar chest girls used to have in the past were called Hope Chests too) for the future, to store her hopes for a better future in a safe place. This would be like a dream of spring for her. Probably she only acted out of instict. She only grasped it in an instictive way, but the foreshadowing and the implications are there.

[R & R]

trousseau |ˈtroōˌsō; ˌtroōˈsō|

noun ( pl. -seaux pronunc. same, or -seaus )

the clothes, household linen, and other belongings collected by a bride for her marriage.

ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: from French, diminutive of trousse ‘bundle’ (a sense also found in Middle English ).

I had to look that up. :drunk: Forum threads that meander all around the topic and delve into speculation can be informative. Always glad to learn something over breakfast. Thanks!

[MaryaStone]

I had to look that up. :drunk: Forum threads that meander all around the topic and delve into speculation can be informative. Always glad to learn something over breakfast. Thanks!

You're welcome, and sorry for the giggling silliness . I guess it has surpassed your comfort zone , but , come on, you boys like kisses and other things you know as much as anyone, you can deal with a bit of fluff unless we women insist on choosing a flowery coverlet and lacy curtains and ribbons (preferably pink) and loads of cushions you have to take away every time you want to get in bed. As long as we keep some stuff in check it's easy to find a common ground .

[Starbird]

I agree with R&R and Marya that Sandor's no wizard in the bedroom. I fully expect a return of Manly Tears.

Interesting question about why people are saving Hound souvenirs. He's got such a forceful personality/reputation that I think people want to absorb some of that for themselves. He's larger than life. Sansa wants his protection and Lem (?) wants his ferocity. Definitely agree on the trousseau thing. The cloak is/was under her summer silks, which indicates better days as well.

[brashcandy]

When SanSanage (thanks R&R for that term) goes down, I fully expect she'll be just as eager to explore his body and vice versa.

The bloody cloak beneath the summer silks definitely seems to signify hope for a better day for them. I mean her decision to keep it in such a personal place with her clothing highlights that connection/bond between them.

Good point on what the objects represent to those who have them, Starbird. And we know who already has the man's heart.

[Fragile Bird]

Good thing I finally figured out how to search for threads - when this went from 17 to 18 , I think it hit 3 pages before I found it!

No worries at all whatsoever about any first night - almost any person who has been around dogs all his life will be able to be kind and gentle. I'm a dog person, and I'm betting Sandor got most of the love in his life from his dogs. And if you've ever owned a dog, you know how much love that can be! And as for first nights and Dany - that was complete BS! It was a lovely fairy tale, but the sex they had thereafter was very crude at times. And I don't imagine that happening between SanSan. She will be on a pedestal, and he ain't eloquent, but he has internal restraints.

And Bgona! I felt like slapping myself, heck, whacking myself in the head after you pointed out the events over the 2 days of the Hand's tournament. GRRM's writing is so dense you really can re-read and re-read and find more things to think about. You think about that conversation, by torchlight, in the pitch dark, and you think, I don't ever want to meet him in a dark alley. And then next day he goes and does things a True Knight would do.

Hey Brashie - add that to the list of new initials: TK! (with IMD, in my dreams!)

EDIT: So sorry, I had to add this. As soon as I closed down my computer, it crossed my mind that only in the land of GRRM do you have an a****hole like Ramsey Bolton. I mean, who the hell hunts women with dogs and then flays them? He is a psychopath. But note, Theon got a lot of love from those dogs........I meant that with a straight face.

[aluin]

I am totally agree to this beautiful post of Maryastone about their kiss and intimacy .. I was imagined it the same.. Its like in the real life, as you said: it won't be perfect, it will be uncomfortable and and a bit awkward .. However for me this is high indication that things will going on better in the future.. even I am married to an uncomfortable full of tension kiss :)

My worry is that SanSan relationship cannot be represented on a movie in such a deep profound way.. I just don't expect HBO to satisfy my views on that point.. Well its pity, but in other hand I prefer reading so will just wait for Martin to get things done :)

[Gala]

I agree with everything, it's very nice! By the way, does anyone know did she take his cloak when she was escaping KL? I've been wondering for a long time, but I haven't find any evidence+ I can't check it right now-no book with me. So anybody, please? I would be glad if his cloak would be the sign for him, when and if they meet again. :)

[brashcandy]

I agree with everything, it's very nice! By the way, does anyone know did she take his cloak when she was escaping KL? I've been wondering for a long time, but I haven't find any evidence+ I can't check it right now-no book with me. So anybody, please? I would be glad if his cloak would be the sign for him, when and if they meet again. :)

The prevailing consensus is that no, she doesn't have the cloak. When she left KL, she doesn't take any of her personal belongings, but LF does mention on the boat that there's a chest where she'll find clothes, and a cloak. Obviously, this isn't the bloody cloak, but we don't know if LF might have had some of Sansa's clothing removed from her room when the wedding was in full swing. So, really it's a big mystery.

[Gala]

Thank you! I didn't catch "a cloak" thing from Littlefinger!

[brashcandy]

Thank you! I didn't catch "a cloak" thing from Littlefinger!

I took it as a nice tantalising hint from GRRM :) We know Sansa has a much more important cloak hiding, and I just can't shake my feeling that it's at the Vale.

[bgona]

Again I love the post of MaryaStone about the kiss! I also imaging something similar.

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About the chest, if it is the same ceddar chest I would die of joy! There is a possibility to be the same chest, if you remember LF ask Cersei some tapestry and she send them. Maybe he took the ceddar chest. But it would be too much risky, that sounds impossible to me that LF did that.

[bgona]

Please can anybody tell me some of the initials as: IIRC or IMHO (IMO is in my oppinion).

[brashcandy]

Please can anybody tell me some of the initials as: IIRC or IMHO (IMO is in my oppinion).

If I remember correctly and In my honest opinion

[childofsummer]

Computer is throwing a tantrum. Grr.

Barking . . . LOL.

I'm agree that he trusts her discretion but I think part of his frustration is from her inability to read between the lines. She doesn't give thank him for saving her from the mob, she doesn't give him credit for saving her from Joffrey when he has her stripped in the yard, he's convinced she can't look him in the face . . . he's giving out all these hints that he likes her and she's just not getting it. Also, she keeps spewing nonsense ("my brother Robb is a traitor") and I think that frustrates him, too. He's leveled with her (character assessments of people at court, the story behind his burns, etc.) but she won't be entirely honest and drop the act with him. He's shown his trust in her and she hasn't shown the same level of trust in him (for ex., he knows she's lying when they run into each other on the serpentine, post-Dontos).

Starbird, you're right, it must frustrate him that she doesn't confide in him, but why would he reasonably expect her to? His official loyalty is to Joffrey. I don't think he's annoyed by the lies, so much, because he himself has said she's a rotten liar. He understands that she has to lie in order to survive, though. Her lies about loving Joffrey with all her heart and about her brother's and father's treasons are absolutely necessary if she doesn't want to end up with her head on a spike.

@ Marya, re the crick in the neck - how tall is Sansa? I've always pictured her as sort of average female height, and when her growth is mentioned, it says she has shot up at least a couple of inches while in KL.

[childofsummer]

So only one thread behind R+J=L.......

If Sandor is alive, what do you think the significance of him being the gravedigger is?

Laying old ghosts to rest? Making up for the lives he has taken? Or is he burying his past?

Corpse/funeral duty is some of the hardest. It takes a big psychological toll, partly because it makes the people dealing with the bodies confront mortality. I think he's digging graves to humanize the people he has been used to seeing as "meat for the butcher." It's a necessary part of his transition from killing machine to a more conscience-driven existence.