The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[bradd]

two_by_two - Good point, that's true... I don't know though, the argument just doesn't make sense to me. There's two points there... A - Felurian knowing Illien but not Tarbolin means Tarbolin is younger than Illien and B - there was no University more than 2000 years ago. If A is true, then you could argue Kvothe had heard of Illien but not Selitos, therefore Selitos must be younger than Illien (which isn't true). For B - the uber magicians from 5000 years ago knew enough to grow silver apples and create a whole new world, but they didn't have somewhere to go and study as a group? Sure, maybe it's not the exact same University as in the present day but it doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't have something. Either way, I guess we'll see when D3 comes out :) Although it wouldn't surprise me if PR leaves all these questions unanswered at the end of D3 just to make us speculate about the next series :)

[two_by_two]

For B - the uber magicians from 5000 years ago knew enough to grow silver apples and create a whole new world, but they didn't have somewhere to go and study as a group? Sure, maybe it's not the exact same University as in the present day but it doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't have something.

I got the impression from the Taborlin story that his abilities were extremely unusual amongst the great adventurers and scholars of the time, which certainly was not the case in the time of the Creation War. The way I see it, after that time, study of shaping went into a quick decline and shortly stopped entirely, probably because the survivors of the Creation War wanted to have nothing to do with the thing that utterly destroyed their world. Naming also declined, but much much slower. Much later, in the time of Taborlin, naming was still prevalent but only a shadow of what it once was. Taborlin was the Kvothe of his age - astronomically gifted and precocious and not afraid to use his power.

[thistlepong]

Admittedly, the Bible has changed due to translation upon translation upon mistranslation. Also, I think telling a story fewer times and not letting it spread would be a much safer way to ensure that it does not get changed. Recall if you will Kvothe's story about Felurian. By the time he gets back to the University, it's completely different - there's numerous versions, none of which adhere to the facts. If a story is told less often, it stays truer to the original, especially if it is stressed that this is a very important story.

Very nice. It should be noted that we are only given a sort of generic she sent me an incredibly angry letter, without any direct quotes (excluding the word excrescence, meaning "a distinct outgrowth, especially one that is the result of disease"), so we cannot draw any conclusions from that, sadly. Also, Bredon asks upon seeing the wooden ring if Meluan sent it to Kvothe as a summons. He then almost immediately contradicts himself, claiming that they "aren't used at all anymore," and that she considers Kvothe not "worth recognizing as a human being." Hardly someone you send a summons to.

Wow. Serves me right for assuming excrescence was a poop joke at Kvothe's expense instead of looking it up. That actually looks like Meluan's figured out, or decided, that Kvothe's a canker on the family tree. And Bredon lampshades it. His question might be interogatory, wondering if Kvothe gets it; or it might be an indication he doesn't know Meluan's figured it out. I'll need to chew on that for a bit.

I'm with your take on Taborlin. That or the oft put forth Taborlin-as-Jack-figure. I think Felurian's ignorance about Taborlin and the Amyr while having some of Illien is an intentional triangulation for the reader.

“I heard from a boy in Temper Glen that if your arm’s cut off they can sew it back on at the University. Can they really? Some stories say Taborlin the Great went there to learn the names of all things. There’s a library with a thousand books. Are there really that many?”

That does a lot to corroborate your notion. It's nothing definite, but it's another coordinate. If he's more contemporary, then the Scyphus story is comforting in a way. It suggests the Chandrian are capable of acting on the same scale as the Amyr and the Singers, affecting national politics within recent history rather than being seven ineffectual bogeymen.

Tze, that's a clever take on the wooden ring. Cold Pie's connection to the other wooden ring seems even more likely. Makes me thing of "the final ring was without name." Whose secret does it keep? Auri's or Kvothe's? Interesting.

[Tears of Lys]

Really enjoying all the theories. Here's a crackpot one of my one...

We've all wondered at one time or another why Bast stays with Kvothe. Bast is constantly bored, is ostensibly with Kvothe to learn arcane arts, but in actuality learns nothing, (and why he needs to learn from Kvothe is questionable), does very little besides watch Kvothe and try to reawaken Kvothe's powers, in fact, arranges for extremely dangerous encounters that are supposed to awaken Kvothe's latent powers.

What if Bast is NOT, in reality, a student to Kvothe, but someone sent to keep an eye on Kvothe and when Kvothe regains his powers, to report back? Bast is impatient that Kvothe isn't responding as quickly as he might have hoped, thereby extending Bast's stay in this podunk town where there's nothing to do but dally with the young women of the town.

He's introduced, by Kvothe, to Chronicler (NotW) as the son of the Prince of Twilight and the Telwyth Mael. (Whether this means his father is the Telwyth Mael or Bast is, is not clear.) But later (NotW) after the incident where the Demon/Mercenary kills Shep at the inn, when Kvothe is questioning him as to what he thinks the creature was, saying "Isn't it one of your kind?" Bast responds angrily, "It was not 'my kind, the Mael doesn't even share a border with us. It's as far away as anywhere can be in the Fae." What's up with that?

I find it difficult to ascribe evil intentions to Bast (for one, I like his character, and two, if Bast and Co. just wanted to get rid of Kvothe, they could have let the Demon get him and be done with it. But who or what is Bast reporting to? The Kingdom of Fae, I'm presuming, who apparently have a horse in this race and are extremely interested in the outcome.

ETA: On second thought, this is not as crackpot as I may have originally thought and it's probably already been discussed waaaay back. :P

[Nisheeth]

On second thought, this is not as crackpot as I may have originally thought and it's probably already been discussed waaaay back

I don't think so. I don't remember it ever being discussed in this forum alteast. And it is a convincing one at that.

[Sci-2]

What if Bast is NOT, in reality, a student to Kvothe, but someone sent to keep an eye on Kvothe and when Kvothe regains his powers, to report back? Bast is impatient that Kvothe isn't responding as quickly as he might have hoped, thereby extending Bast's stay in this podunk town where there's nothing to do but dally with the young women of the town.

Wow. Yeah, there really isn't a reason for him to be learning from Kvothe. Unless Bast has to learn magic that differs from his innate abilities for some reason.

What's interesting is in the framing device Bast says:

“I swear it by my tongue and teeth,” Bast said crisply. “I swear it on the doors of stone. I am telling you

three thousand times. There is nothing in my world or yours more dangerous than the Cthaeh.”

Does this mean that the doors are not actually opened by the end of the third book. Seems strange to swear on the doors, without any remark on them, if the Creation war has started up again because Iax is freed.

[thistlepong]

sciborg2, that's a good catch that also confirms a lot of the work done in previous threads. The moon is still moving, the war is likely a Vintic civil war, and the doors of stone aren't propped open.

[Tears of Lys]

And that would negate Faen interest, I would think, in the outcome of a Vintish civil war. The moon is still moving between Mortal and Fae, the doors are still closed. So I come back to, Why is Bast still hanging around?

[Sci-2]

Well, given the title of the last book, perhaps the war is actually a war between varied powers - The Amyr, the Faen, the Seven - to open or keep shut the Doors of Stone.

ETA: There's still a civil war, but the cause is really the varied supernatural forces pushing their pawns around.

It may be that underlying the war is a search for the items necessary to open the Doors, and that Kvothe is someone who could - if he had his powers back - turn the tide.

But I do agree Bast is almost certainly there for more than chilling with his Reshi.

[thistlepong]

None of that dismisses Kvothe's potential importance. Bast is just a mystery to me. I spent some time wondering if he was Denna ffs.

We linked and copypasta'd the Suvudu cage match Rothfuss wrote between Kvothe and Jaime threads ago. I'll see if I can link it again when I'm not phoning this in. You might find the portrayal of Bast interesting.

[thistlepong]

Tears, here's the text of the "fight," spoilerized to avoid a wall of text.

It was midmorning, and the autumn sun was hot as Jaime Lannister opened the door of the Waystone Inn. The place was oddly quiet, and he peered through the door, one hand resting lightly on his sword.

The taproom was empty except for a dark-haired young man lounging behind the bar. “Can I help you?”

Jaime stepped inside. “I’m looking for the owner. We have… business.”

The young man stood up straighter. “He’s stepped out for a moment. You’re Jaime?”

Jaime frowned slightly as he looked the young man over. “I am. And you are?”

“Bast.” The young man said with a grin. “He said I’m to make you comfortable if you showed up early. He shouldn’t be more than an hour or two. Can I get you something to drink?”

Jaime moved to sit at the bar. “I don’t suppose you have any decent wine out here in the ass end of nowhere?”

“What do you mean by decent?” Bast asked.

Jaime waved a hand dismissively. “Why don’t you bring out your best bottle? I’ll tell you if it’s something worth drinking.”

Bast looked offended as he headed down the basement stairs, returning a moment later with a dusty bottle.

“Something off the top shelf, I hope,” Jamie said.

“Something from behind the shelf,” Bast said proudly. “I can’t keep track of what the wines are called in these parts, but I’m guessing when you hide a bottle, it’s the good stuff.”

Bast worked a corkscrew and opened the bottle with a deft flourish. Then he brought out a tall wineglass, poured an inch of deep red wine into it, and held it out with an ingratiating smile.

Jaime made no motion to take it. “You drink half.”

Bast glanced down at the glass, then back up, his smile fading. “It tells you a lot about a man when he says something like that.”

Jaime showed his teeth in a sharp, joyless expression that had the shape of a smile. “It says a lot about you,” he said smugly, “that you aren’t willing to drink it.”

Bast gave a dismissive sniff, picked up the glass, and took a mouthful of the dark wine. Then he raised his eyebrows and made an appreciative noise as he picked up the bottle and eyed the engraving on the neck. “I can see why he hid this one,” Bast said, pouring more into the glass. “That’s just lovely.”

Jaime shrugged. “Ah well,” he said. “You know what they say. Better safe than sore,” he held out his hand.

Bast brought the glass close to his chest, his blue eyes icy. “This is my drink now.” He took another sip of the wine. “Rude guests go thirsty. Drink your own piss for all I care.”

Jaime’s expression went dark. “I’m not here for you,” he said. “But killing you wouldn’t be far out of my way.”

They stared at each other for a while across the bar. After a moment, Bast set the bottle down hard on the bar. “Fine,” he said, nudging it so it slid forward. “I won’t insult you by offering you a glass or anything. I could poison that, too. You’ll just have to drink it right from the bottle…” Bast grinned. “Like an unlettered cretin.”

Jaime picked up the bottle. “Boy,” he said. “If it makes you feel brave to show your teeth to me, go right ahead. But I’ll only tolerate so much.” He took a drink straight from the bottle, paused, and took another slower drink as if to make sure of something. He looked surprised. “Well, that is good, isn’t it?”

Bast nodded and took another sip.

“Did he say when he’ll be back?”

Bast looked down at his feet. “A couple hours,” he said with an odd tone in his voice. “He wasn’t expecting you until noon.”

“Don’t look so glum, boy,” Jaime said. “Look at the bright side. In a couple hours I’ll be on my way and you’ll be the owner of this fine inn.”

Bast looked up and his eyes were anxious. “I don’t suppose I could convince you to call this off?”

Jaime gave a humorless laugh and took another drink. “Good lord, boy. Why on earth would I do that?”

“Human decency?” Bast said.

Something about this struck the golden-haired man as funny, and he erupted into a great belly laugh that lasted for nearly a minute. Eventually he trailed off, wiping the water from his eyes. “You just earned yourself a tip, boy.” He shook his head in disbelief and took another drink.

“It’s just that…” Bast began.

“Look, boy.” Jaime leaned forward onto the bar. “I can tell you’re a talker. You probably learned that from him. I hear he’s got a silver tongue on him. Talked his way right out of the fight with the god-lion.” He gave Bast a serious look, his eyes hard as flint. “But that isn’t going to do him any good here.”

Jamie took another drink from the bottle before continuing. “You see, I’ve done some asking around. Your Kvothe has a bit of a reputation. Clever, quick. Devil with a sword. Strong as a bear. He can call down fire and lightning.” Jaime shook his head. “But I think all that is just stories. And the parts that aren’t just stories, he lost long ago.” He looked around the empty inn. “He wouldn’t be hiding here if he still had a scrap of power to call his own.”

Bast looked dejected, but he didn’t say anything.

“I’ll offer him a chance to surrender.” Jaime said magnanimously. “As thanks for this excellent bottle of wine.” He took one last drink and pushed it away from himself on the bar. “That’s enough of that. Start to turn my head, otherwise.”

“He might surprise you.” Bast said.

“With what?” Jaime said, laughing again. “That sword has dust on it, and his magic’s gone from what I hear. His silver tongue isn’t any good on me. He doesn’t even play music any more. What’s left?”

“I need to show you something,” Bast said. “Come here behind the bar.”

Jaime turned his shoulders, then frowned, looking down at his feet.

“Never mind,” Bast said, starting to walk around the bar. “I’ll come over to you.”

“Why can’t I move my legs?” Jaime said, his voice quiet and incredulous.

“Sethora,” Bast said simply. “It tends to start with the legs. You can probably still move your arms. But be careful or you’ll….” Jaime turned on his stool and toppled messily to the floor. “…Yeah. You’ll do that.”

Jaime writhed a bit, turning onto his side. Moving his arms sluggishly he managed to pull a long knife from his belt and throw it at Bast as came out from behind the bar. But the throw went wild and sunk into one of the thick-timbers of the tables.

Bast approached where the big man lay, stepping gracefully as a dancer. He stayed well out of arm’s reach through the man’s final struggles, waiting until he saw the tall man’s breathing grow stiff and labored.

“It was in the wine,” Bast stepped close and brushed the man’s golden hair out of his eyes. “I can’t believe you managed to drink so much of it. You must have the constitution of an ox.”

“But you…” Jaime’s mouth shaped the words though he lacked the breath to say them.

“You think I wouldn’t drink poison for him?” Bast asked. “Then you don’t know anything about him.”

Bast met the man’s glassy eyes. “You’re right. He’s not what he used to be. He’s lost everything. No magic. No music. No joy. No hope. You know what he has? You know what’s left?” Bast leaned closer, his voice low and vicious. “Me!” He practically spat the word, his eyes were wild. “He has me!”

The young man stood, took a fistful of the tall man’s golden hair, and began to drag his limp body across the floor.

[Tears of Lys]

Hmmm... well, that puts a different slant on things, doesn't it?

[Seiche]

What if Bast is NOT, in reality, a student to Kvothe, but someone sent to keep an eye on Kvothe and when Kvothe regains his powers, to report back? Bast is impatient that Kvothe isn't responding as quickly as he might have hoped, thereby extending Bast's stay in this podunk town where there's nothing to do but dally with the young women of the town.

Just wanted to bring back a note from thread Five, where Bast's loyalty to Kvothe was discussed a bit. Based on this, my take is that Bast is an earnest and loyal friend/servant/companion to Kvothe.

edit: Ack! I was Ponged 20 minutes ago :laugh:

[Cold Pie]

I remember reading that short-story when it came out during Kvothes' cage match run, but it never changed my perspective on Bast as it did now. Very interesting. Great read.

The most interesting aspect is that Bast apparently is the only friend Kvothe has left. No one else. Does all the others think that he's dead? Or perhaps they're dead themselves? Will be interesting to see a Bast/Denna encounter in the next book, I remember Bast describing her at some point in tNoTW, and stating that they've met once. I hope Bast get's introduced to young Kvothe early in the next book, that would be really interesting.

A reason to why Bast stays could be that he's somehow in Kvothes debt. Either because Kvothe helped him in some way or because he's the one responsible for fucking up Kvothes life.

[Tears of Lys]

A reason to why Bast stays could be that he's somehow in Kvothes debt. Either because Kvothe helped him in some way or because he's the one responsible for fucking up Kvothes life.

That's intriguing. I never considered that.

I must have been really busy when the WMF V thread was active. There's some really great stuff in there. Some day when I've got about a week, I may even read it all. :P

[thistlepong]

Funny thing about the threads... you could reread both books faster than going through them.

[Cold Pie]

Funny thing about the threads... you could reread both books faster than going through them.

But you would be wiser after going through the threads ;) .

That's intriguing. I never considered that.

I always got the impression that Bast acts in a bit of a guilty, protective manner towards Kvothe, which Kvothe himself finds a bit annoying, or even humiliating (maybe Kvothe doesn't even know about whatever Bast may have done, that would explain his acting towards Bast as well). Perhaps that's one of the reasons or even the reason Bast is so protective

[Cold Pie]

Double post.

[thistlepong]

But you would be wiser after going through the threads ;) .

Presumably that's a generality. I went back and looked at my first post in thread one which I made after reading the prior pages and wanted to slap myself. Though I suppose I might be wiser for it...

[two_by_two]

Wow. Serves me right for assuming excrescence was a poop joke at Kvothe's expense instead of looking it up. That actually looks like Meluan's figured out, or decided, that Kvothe's a canker on the family tree. And Bredon lampshades it. His question might be interogatory, wondering if Kvothe gets it; or it might be an indication he doesn't know Meluan's figured it out. I'll need to chew on that for a bit.

I'm with your take on Taborlin. That or the oft put forth Taborlin-as-Jack-figure. I think Felurian's ignorance about Taborlin and the Amyr while having some of Illien is an intentional triangulation for the reader.

“I heard from a boy in Temper Glen that if your arm’s cut off they can sew it back on at the University. Can they really? Some stories say Taborlin the Great went there to learn the names of all things. There’s a library with a thousand books. Are there really that many?”

That does a lot to corroborate your notion. It's nothing definite, but it's another coordinate. If he's more contemporary, then the Scyphus story is comforting in a way. It suggests the Chandrian are capable of acting on the same scale as the Amyr and the Singers, affecting national politics within recent history rather than being seven ineffectual bogeymen.

Tze, that's a clever take on the wooden ring. Cold Pie's connection to the other wooden ring seems even more likely. Makes me thing of "the final ring was without name." Whose secret does it keep? Auri's or Kvothe's? Interesting.

Sorry, what is the Taborlin-as-Jack figure? I also assumed that excrescence meant poop.

He's introduced, by Kvothe, to Chronicler (NotW) as the son of the Prince of Twilight and the Telwyth Mael. (Whether this means his father is the Telwyth Mael or Bast is, is not clear.) But later (NotW) after the incident where the Demon/Mercenary kills Shep at the inn, when Kvothe is questioning him as to what he thinks the creature was, saying "Isn't it one of your kind?" Bast responds angrily, "It was not 'my kind, the Mael doesn't even share a border with us. It's as far away as anywhere can be in the Fae." What's up with that?

Wait. So presumably the Telwyth Mael must be a separate entity from the Mael. Though that seems odd to me. Okay. From what Bast said, the Mael are the skin dancers. I'm confused now. Is it possible that his father is the prince of the Telwyth Mael = the Mael but lives in a geographically discrete area? In which case it may be possible that Bast himself orchestrated the attack by the skin dancer.

I remember reading that short-story when it came out during Kvothes' cage match run, but it never changed my perspective on Bast as it did now. Very interesting. Great read.

The most interesting aspect is that Bast apparently is the only friend Kvothe has left. No one else. Does all the others think that he's dead? Or perhaps they're dead themselves? Will be interesting to see a Bast/Denna encounter in the next book, I remember Bast describing her at some point in tNoTW, and stating that they've met once. I hope Bast get's introduced to young Kvothe early in the next book, that would be really interesting.

A reason to why Bast stays could be that he's somehow in Kvothes debt. Either because Kvothe helped him in some way or because he's the one responsible for fucking up Kvothes life.

Whoa that's a heck of a thought.

WAIT. WHOA. CRACK THEORY ALERT. What if the King that Kvothe kills is Bast's grandfather? If his father is the Prince of Twilight, a prince is the son of a king... Maybe Kvothe killed the King of Fae, causing all sorts of unrest there, unrest which is mirrored in the Four Corners.