Lesbian Sex Encounters in Books...and Renly/Loras

[Winter's Knight]

I just realised but the one direct mention of m/m sex in the books is when Victorian's crew gang raped his maestar remember?

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

ACOK? Haha maybe the abbreviated name is a hint? :P

there is also a mention of one of the lords of the vale "liking boys" by Baelish, I think that also hinted at something more sinister though. I can't remember his name but he came to try and overthrow Peter after lysa'sdeath.

[SeanF]

LF provides Ser Lyn Corbray with gold and boys, in return for his (secret) support. We don't know what age the boys are.

Tyrion also encounters a soldier from King's Landing among the Second Sons, who left a boyfriend behind in the city.

[Roose Seal]

ACOK? Haha maybe the abbreviated name is a hint? :P

there is also a mention of one of the lords of the vale "liking boys" by Baelish, I think that also hinted at something more sinister though. I can't remember his name but he came to try and overthrow Peter after lysa'sdeath.

I got the impression that if Littlefinger had to 'supply' him with boys it meant that Corbray couldn't find what he wanted in regular brothels, so I took it to mean that he liked young boys.... that would make him not gay but a paedo. But maybe it just meant he likes "boys" in the general meaning of the word, not specifically young boys.

There's also the infamous Whoresbane...

[Jon WintryMix]

With Cersei, I think it just shows her total dis-link from societal norms. She is truly a sociopath and no taboo is too much for her.

Dany is lonely and does not wish to take any man (aside from Daario).

[Jon WintryMix]

Double post.

[Alia of the knife]

In a world/time when it was common practice for highborn girls to have bedmates (which was the case in real life as well), I would imagine that some experimentation was probably fairly common. *Most* highborn girls were pretty ignorant about what all was entailed in marriage duties, but that does not mean that they did not have curiousity when it came to their own maturing bodies. The practice of bedmates was in part to ensure virginity until marriage, and I would imagine the parents would rather have their daughters goofing around with each other, than finding some squire with whom to satisfy their curioisity. I will not be surprised if we see Sansa further shocked by Randa when it comes to being her new bedmate.

I saw Dany's experimentation as a simple need for physical release and human contact, no more. Cersei's encounter with Taena was definitely something uglier; a chance (from Cersei's viewpoint) to see what it had felt like to be Robert all those times when she was powerless to stop him from doing as he would. Although I think Taena may have had some genuine physical attraction to Cersei, I think from Cersei's end it was just an opportunity that presented itself: she was somewhat drunk, she trusted Taena as much as she ever trusts anyone, and she believed that Taena was loose morally and therefore sure to comply (Cersei thought of Taena, "you're all whores from the east, or something along those lines, when Taena confessed that she was not a virgin when she married). Which was almost hilariously but perfectly in-character hypocritical, considering that Cersei herself was quite well broken in prior to her own marriage.

As for why we do not see more of Renly/Loras' relationship, I guess it is probably because there was never really a POV to describe it; and they seem to have been much better at discretion in the books than they are shown in the HBO series (where it appears from LF's public insults that their relationship is rather well known, or at least suspected/gossiped about). Another bizarre departure from Book Renly that seems to present problems in his becoming this charismatic, easily adored, much followed and well married candidate for the throne.

Thats true.

My Husband and were talking about the possible miscasting of Renly.

Whatever Renlys sexual preferrences were, he's portrayed in the series as more like the stereo-typical fashion diva, rather than the Knight he was.

I read Renly in the book as more of a nod to an Alexander the Great archetype, (as well as Loras).

[thor1215]

Cersei wishes that she had been born a man and likes to do as Robert did to her. As with many other things she does, it's a perverse power thing. She needs to feel she is powerful (in bed) and she also feels powerful when she acts like Robert acted towards her. She is a person who likes to abuse people and feels more powerful when she does so.

you said it all Qhorin. One of the themes of Cersei's chapters in AFFC is that she wants to be a man. She keeps wishing she was born a man so she could inherit the world. In this case I believe she was reliving what Robert did to her. The interesting part is that it means she thought Robert was a good "man" since she wanted to be like him.

I just realised but the one direct mention of m/m sex in the books is when Victorian's crew gang raped his maestar remember?

To me this was the most disturbing sexual information in the book. I think the exact words the maester said was "used me as a woman." I took it to mean that the Ironborn have no respect for those unable to fight for themselves. Victorian even threatened to bend the maester of the rail of the ship and let the crew have him. It appears raping unworthy men is part of Ironborn culture.

Also the Tattered Prince mentioned having to a deserter who left because "the other men make me suck their cocks." Maybe some Ironborn got abandoned by Euron and joined with the Tattered Prince?

With Cersei, I think it just shows her total dis-link from societal norms. She is truly a sociopath and no taboo is too much for her.

Dany is lonely and does not wish to take any man (aside from Daario).

I agree that Cersei sees herself as above all of the social norms (like incest is bad, or killing the high septon is bad). I wouldn't call her a sociopath, as much as she is a woman who has witneseed power but never been apart of it. She was always in the shadows of the men around her; Tywin, Rhaegar, Robert, Jaimie, even her brother Tyrion who is rightful heir to Casterly Rock. In AFFC she was finally the one calling all of the shots. That power trip, her life long ambition, went straight to her head and she began imagining she was a man so she could hold that power forever. What better way to prove your manhood than by having a woman?

I think with both Dany and Cersei, their sex scenes with women were to show their 'power'. With Cersei, she is trying to emulate Robert and her 'fucking' Taena is her mimiking what Robert did to her. With Dany, it shows that she is so powerful she doesn't even need to masturbate herself, she has slaves to do it for her. Plus it is meant to emphasis her loneliness despite her rank and power.

Couldn't agree more with Cersei.

With Dany, I don't think it was a power thing, as much as a "I am a lonely teen" thing. I agree with your second part, emphasizing loneliness despite being Queen of the 7 Kingdoms and all her other fancy titles. I think Martin was trying to show us that she is still young and has wants for companionship. This was probably to make the transition into Dario easier to follow. And to get us thinking that a hand maiden is no rightful lover to the Mother of Dragons.

[Alia of the knife]

In works like these, I can deal with these issues if they are portrayed as a natural part of the character.

Cersei: Its natural for her, because she's engaging in an act of cruelty really, becoming the thing she hated- Robert.

Dany: Young, not really sure of herself, but perhaps a touch of arrogance in relation to her servant.

Renly/Loras: It's who they were.

Speaking beyond early sexual experimentation as mentioned as reasons for some of these behaviors, and talking specifically of more mature personalities like Renly and Loras, I hope the book treats these relationships if there are anymore as genuine, and not for just the sake titilation.

These genres are reaching a broader base now, (i.e, females, people with different sexual orientations and preferences), instead of just the general male population that scifi and fantasy used to only attract.

The last thing thing a person wants to see in a work ,(if the writers intention is to draw people in by relatable characters), is just another stereo-type of themselves.

[PatrickStormborn]

lack of gay scenes... I'm guessing its because GRRM is straight.

Imagine if Martin was gay and only wrote male/male sex scenes... Would "it's because he's gay" be a valid excuse for not having any other kinds of sex scenes?

If gay writers can write heterosexual sex scenes, then I expect straight writers to be able to write gay sex scenes.

[Gurkhal]

Imagine if Martin was gay and only wrote male/male sex scenes... Would "it's because he's gay" be a valid excuse for not having any other kinds of sex scenes?

If gay writers can write heterosexual sex scenes, then I expect straight writers to be able to write gay sex scenes.

I think it would be a justification for him to write all his heterosexual sex scenes like crap while doing the gay ones good.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Dannister - yeah that scene with Cersei is quite disturbing really. The total lack of care, using another woman with total indifference about what she's doing! And the whole fantasising that she is a boar forcing her friend on her tusks? Shades of American psycho lol

To whoever said Dany scene was "pornographic" . . Are you serious? It was pretty tame imo . . Just a bit of hand action, unless im forgetting something. i found it a bit uncomfortable from the perspective that her hand maid had previously shown no interest in girls but noticing her lady going at it offered herself up. Imagining that level of servitude bothers me.

I must be so silly to have missed the whole Renly\Loras thing. . I haven't seen the show yet though. Is there even any pointed hints in the novel? Or are we just reading between the lines?

More than pointed hints. They frequently "pray" at the sept together. Jamie's threat to Lora, he will shove his sword so deep to a place than Renly never found, paraphrasing.

[Jory]

With Dany, I think it was partially to show how she had changed culturally. Being with the Dothraki, who took a far more bestial attitude towards sex (no shame in it as such), it just becomes about pleasing each other, regardless of gender. I can't remember who it is she has pleasure her, but I'm pretty sure it was part of her role as a slave to please the khaleesi, there being no gay/straight thought in it. As for why GRRM chose to write the scenes, I'm not really sure. I think gay scenes may have been more laughable than erotic, every time I read someone mention Sam's stiff pink mast I still laugh as hard as I did the first time I read it in the book.

These freaking forums. :stillsick: Why did GRRM choose to write the scenes? Why is this some great mystery? He's a straight guy. The lack of gay sex scenes tells you all you need to know when the series features: dwarf sex, incest, lesbian sex, etc. all described in... gratuitous detail, as the "stiff pink mast" suggests. It's honestly a little offensive to say that gay sex scenes would be "laughable" - no more laughable than all the other straight sex scenes featured.

[Gurkhal]

the "stiff pink mast"

If I could reach you I would punch you for writing this quote. Just let that shit die. :(

[Pliny]

I'm sure I'm not remembering all of them, but are there many sex scenes that are actually romantic and erotic? I recall that Drogo's and Dany's first time was both, but after that... aren't they (the instances in the book) more gritty and mechanical? Jaime taking Cersei beside their dead son, during her period, Dany disconnecting while her Meerenese husband does his thing, Shae obvious (and painfully pathetic, if you think about it - we know she's just using him) flattery with Tyrion, Tyrion's vomiting escapades with a prostitute...

I suppose Jon's grotto scene with Ygritte could be considered romantic and erotic (I just have a hard time with that one, because I remember that neither has bathed in a while... sorry. That's just my hangup. I think this scene is genuinely meant to be romantic).

I think the most touching "sex" scene is when Tyrion and Sansa are preparing to consummate their marriage, and he's telling her he "could be good to her" and "in the dark, he's the Knight of Flowers."

As far as the "lesbian scenes" - which I'm not sure is the correct terminology. I don't mean to be nit-picky, but I don't think Cersei or Dany are lesbians, but rather that they had a female-female experience - I think most posters have the right of it. Dany was lonely, and Irri was there at the right time. For Cersei, it was most certainly about power. It satisfies her immediate need, but ultimately she is still alone.

In the ancient Mediterranean world, especially in Classical Greece, our labels of hetero or homosexual would have no place. It was all about power, and power meant penetrating as opposed to being penetrated. These roles never reversed. With Cersei, she and Lady Merryweather don't pleasure each other- Cersei fucks her, on a power high. Pardon the language. Cersei reminds me a lot of Olympias, the mother to Alexander the Great... I wonder if GRRM had her in mind at all...

[Sarnius]

I think I will go buy ADWD(Just finished ACOK) just because of that.

Thank you.

I will look forward to seeing it on the TV series whenever that part of the story is made.

Thank you, I think I like Cersei now.

[Sarnius]

I think I will go buy ADWD(Just finished ACOK) just because of that.

Thank you.

I will look forward to seeing it on the TV series whenever that part of the story is made.

Thank you, I think I like Cersei now.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I remember how Dany had some sexual relationship with her handmaid and Cersei with Taena. If these books were written for television, I would totally understand the point of them. Lesbian sex on television is always a good seller. But what was the purpose of it in the book? Was this common for bored and sexually frustrated nobility? Regardless of my sexual preferences, I have never just been bored with life and decided to try to sleep with my friend. And I'm assuming GRRM just didn't write them for attention. You're not going to read over an entire book in a series just for some brief lesbian sex scenes. And they're not really scenes either. I also wonder if HBO is going to incorporate them into the series. I would think YES, because it would most likely be hot, but I almost think no because they don't really have any significance and might seem really, really gratuitous and confusing (HBO loves it, hence why they added Loras/Renly in the series, but adding in random lesbian sex scenes from out of nowhere might look cheap, and HBO is anything but cheap [*usually*])

I guess Dany and Cersei were just bored out of their minds. Dany hadn't been with a man since Drago died and Cersei...well... um. I don't know. I also wondered why GRRM never gave us a closer look at Renly and Loras. It could have been very interesting to see more of what their relationship was like. Maybe he just didn't know how to write it. He's not that great of a romance writer, in my opinion (and that's not a bad thing), and he may especially not feel confident writing romance gay scenes (with or without sex).

Anyway...opinions?

Well wasn't Dany just going to town on her self when one of her hand maid's woke up? I mean how much time do you spend sleeping the same beds with your friends? I would assume probably not that much, where as they seem to do it every night. One would imagine that eventually some situation like this might occur. I remember reading Christopher Hitchens' memoir and during the time when he was in boarding school the boys all ended up engaging in various relations due more to proximity than preference.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I'm sure I'm not remembering all of them, but are there many sex scenes that are actually romantic and erotic? I recall that Drogo's and Dany's first time was both, but after that... aren't they (the instances in the book) more gritty and mechanical? Jaime taking Cersei beside their dead son, during her period, Dany disconnecting while her Meerenese husband does his thing, Shae obvious (and painfully pathetic, if you think about it - we know she's just using him) flattery with Tyrion, Tyrion's vomiting escapades with a prostitute...

I suppose Jon's grotto scene with Ygritte could be considered romantic and erotic (I just have a hard time with that one, because I remember that neither has bathed in a while... sorry. That's just my hangup. I think this scene is genuinely meant to be romantic).

I think the most touching "sex" scene is when Tyrion and Sansa are preparing to consummate their marriage, and he's telling her he "could be good to her" and "in the dark, he's the Knight of Flowers."

As far as the "lesbian scenes" - which I'm not sure is the correct terminology. I don't mean to be nit-picky, but I don't think Cersei or Dany are lesbians, but rather that they had a female-female experience - I think most posters have the right of it. Dany was lonely, and Irri was there at the right time. For Cersei, it was most certainly about power. It satisfies her immediate need, but ultimately she is still alone.

In the ancient Mediterranean world, especially in Classical Greece, our labels of hetero or homosexual would have no place. It was all about power, and power meant penetrating as opposed to being penetrated. These roles never reversed. With Cersei, she and Lady Merryweather don't pleasure each other- Cersei fucks her, on a power high. Pardon the language. Cersei reminds me a lot of Olympias, the mother to Alexander the Great... I wonder if GRRM had her in mind at all...

Not really, with the exception of Jon Ygritte. Asha and Carl the Maid is pretty good but also kind of rapey.

[ChromeWeasel]

The reader is going to interpret a lot in the sex scenes. In all the 'lesbian' scenes mentioned there was very little lesbianism going on. Cersei fools around with her servant for a minute and decides that she doesnt like it. I wouldnt even consider that lesbianism. That's experimentation and it didnt go anywhere. Dany's scenes are a bit more involved, but I don't recall them being a big deal either. In some cases she is being trained to please the Khal. In other scenes her servants were showing her how they could please her, and it didnt go all that far either. I recall Dany laying with her servants for companionship, not for erotic girl-on-girl action.

If the reader wants to he can read more into that than there is, or blow things up into a big anti-homosexual conspiracy. It's pretty ridiculous to think that Martin should give us blatant Renly/Loras activity when neither one of them has a point of view chapter. The only way we'd get to see them is if a PoV hero walked in on the two of them. That would then suggest that Renly and Loras as so stupid as to get caught in the act. That would be a far more negative connotation than the way Martin subtly suggests that people know what's going on in the story. As it stands you can tell that Loras and Renly genuinely care about one another. Whether it's homosexual or not doesnt have to get into graphic detail. It's really a sad commentary on readers that don't appreciate that on its own merits.