Really?

[7V3N]

That makes me sad seeing as I may be the only person who has read the books and finished ASOS and couldn't STAND Daenerys. I feel like she's completely lost sight of her initial goal, and has gotten too caught up in "saving" everyone and everything.

When I finished ASOS I felt like I could lay a rabbit with a broken leg in front of her with armor, and a sign that says "I used to be a warrior, but that guy over there trapped me for days without food and is trying to capture me again and use me for food" and she would take it and claim it as one of her "people."

Sorry, the frustrations of Dany came out. I really did used to love her and her chapters, but eh... the love went away. I'm hoping she redeems herself. I'm halfway through AFFC, so she has ADWD to redeem herself and get her crap together before I go postal.

Trust me, you are not the only one. So many fans have been frustrated with Dany and want her to just get her ass (with dragons, Unsullied, etc.) to Westeros and get the "real" war started.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

Trust me, you are not the only one. So many fans have been frustrated with Dany and want her to just get her ass (with dragons, Unsullied, etc.) to Westeros and get the "real" war started.

EXACTLY! I mean, if she doesn't hurry up and get her Westeros war on, and win... then she'll never have a damn kingdom ready for the attack of white walkers. Yeah, Stannis is up there and all with his little crazy woman, and the Night's Watch. However, I just don't think they'll be enough if something big happens. I think they're going to need a whole ton of people working together if things go bat shit.... yeah.

Either way, Dany just needs to do what she originally set out to do, and stop getting sidetracked with all these other idiots.

[Xtopher]

But how is she supposed to do that if she is that far away from Westeros and with no ships to get their army there?

and even if she does, they arent enough to win the throne. She cant hurry this, its the only thing she has left in her life, i would have done exactly the same.

I think that you all want her to die already cause that´s the only reason you´d want her to arrive at Westeros knowing that right now she cant win.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

But how is she supposed to do that if she is that far away from Westeros and with no ships to get their army there?

and even if she does, they arent enough to win the throne. She cant hurry this, its the only thing she has left in her life, i would have done exactly the same.

I think that you all want her to die already cause that´s the only reason you´d want her to arrive at Westeros knowing that right now she cant win.

No, I don't want her to die. Also, she could have managed to get her ships if she didn't keep getting sidetracked. She needs to focus on GETTING to Westeros, but instead she's been in this "save everyone" mode instead. Not all of the people that she's acquiring are good for an army. Even Jorah made a comment on it prior to his being sent away, if I remember correctly.

I would like to see her succeed, but I want her to stop making stupid decisions, and yes, she's made many stupid decisions.

[Xtopher]

"I will have this city, Ser Jorah".

[dark sister]

I don't think things got necessarily better. You find out some thing but I feel like nothing makes up for the Red Wedding debauchery.

:agree: TOTALLY. I loved Robb, Cat, and all the northern lords who were loyal.

[ServantOnIce]

Just finished a "re read" of Storm of Swords and while it is a great book one of the best I have read in my life, I will say that Martin did a great job in preparing folks for the "Red Wedding" the mistakes made by Catelyn (releasing Jaime), Robb (marrying J. Westerling and rushing off into the Riverlands, leaving the North unguarded), and Edmure (letting everyone know that Jaime had escaped) those things did them in, they were doomed. Robb knew they were doomed, Cately knew they were doomed . . .

[Drowsey Dragon]

:agree: TOTALLY. I loved Robb, Cat, and all the northern lords who were loyal.

I also agree with this. The series has never been the same since the RW. Robb was taken out way to soon.

[Xtopher]

Its all part of the big plan He has... have faith in Rh´llor, He will light the way.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

Its all part of the big plan He has... have faith in Rh´llor, He will light the way.

Meh, there's one religion I'd like to see disappear, buuuuut it won't. I just feel like it's so evil, like there's something really wrong there that nobody is quite seeing. More often then not those following it are using it for the wrong purpose. There have only been a couple of exceptions. I've yet to see something GOOD come out of this.

[Xtopher]

Meh, there's one religion I'd like to see disappear, buuuuut it won't. I just feel like it's so evil, like there's something really wrong there that nobody is quite seeing. More often then not those following it are using it for the wrong purpose. There have only been a couple of exceptions. I've yet to see something GOOD come out of this.

You WILL!

[Hear Me Roar!]

Sounds like some of you don't want a good story, but rather a "rah rah good guy goes and kicks bad guy's ass" guilty pleasure type of gig. That isn't what ASOIAF is. It's a genuinely well-crafted story. Personally, I take great satisfaction from books that elicit emotions from me, even if they are ones of sorrow or grief. At the end of the day, it's a story. Not a vessel for you to live out your empowerment and jump up and down with glee as your favorite cliche good guy archetypes kill the big bad villain.

Plenty of great characters are still alive at present day in the series.

If you kept reading to find out what happens to the Young Wolf, well, that kept you reading for about two novels, and then you finally found out what happens to him. There you go. The story changed, it adapted, shit hit the fan. I'll never get the people that lose interest because a character died.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Sounds like some of you don't want a good story, but rather a "rah rah good guy goes and kicks bad guy's ass" guilty pleasure type of gig. That isn't what ASOIAF is. It's a genuinely well-crafted story. Personally, I take great satisfaction from books that elicit emotions from me, even if they are ones of sorrow or grief. At the end of the day, it's a story. Not a vessel for you to live out your empowerment and jump up and down with glee as your favorite cliche good guy archetypes kill the big bad villain.

Plenty of great characters are still alive at present day in the series.

If you kept reading to find out what happens to the Young Wolf, well, that kept you reading for about two novels, and then you finally found out what happens to him. There you go. The story changed, it adapted, shit hit the fan. I'll never get the people that lose interest because a character died.

I'm with you here. I love GRRM's willingness to gut-punch his readers. It makes the story very Shakespearian, sometimes sinking to the level of tragedy rather than some heroic fantasy cliche

[The Roaring Bear]

Sounds like some of you don't want a good story, but rather a "rah rah good guy goes and kicks bad guy's ass" guilty pleasure type of gig. That isn't what ASOIAF is. It's a genuinely well-crafted story. Personally, I take great satisfaction from books that elicit emotions from me, even if they are ones of sorrow or grief. At the end of the day, it's a story. Not a vessel for you to live out your empowerment and jump up and down with glee as your favorite cliche good guy archetypes kill the big bad villain.

Plenty of great characters are still alive at present day in the series.

If you kept reading to find out what happens to the Young Wolf, well, that kept you reading for about two novels, and then you finally found out what happens to him. There you go. The story changed, it adapted, shit hit the fan. I'll never get the people that lose interest because a character died.

1. A good story does not necessarily mean the opposite of the ra-rah good guy kicking ass thing that you mentioned, but can include both (as ASOIF has), please dont take the elitist "Well you just dont enjoy a good story" ground because thats just pretentious bullshit.

2. Fantasy has traditionally been a vessel to live out the fantastic/ experience another world. This series is still meant to do that. The difference is that it is not the absolute good vs absolute evil, good guy triumphs over all like most fantasy tends to be. Thats nice because its new and different and a wonderful thing. The second that we stop rooting for the character that we want to kick ass happens, is the second that the shock value of killing off good characters goes away, as well as some of the enjoyability because it because just as predictable as all the other high fantasy novels.

3. Now what do you mean you dont understand why people lose interest? That seems like you were just trying to be pretentious again. Of course interest is diminished when your hero dies, thats part of why GRRM does it, to give you that knot in your stomach and make it feel like there is a hole in the story because that helps give the sense of loss, misery, and no hope that the characters in the story feel. That loss makes the rest of the journey more interesting because it stays with you as you read on, helping the reader feel like he is trudging through the misery just like the characters. Now, if you meant a loss of interest to the extent that someone stops reading, yes I agree, I dont understand that either, but there should be some interest lost.

[Hear Me Roar!]

1. A good story does not necessarily mean the opposite of the ra-rah good guy kicking ass thing that you mentioned, but can include both (as ASOIF has), please dont take the elitist "Well you just dont enjoy a good story" ground because thats just pretentious bullshit.

2. Fantasy has traditionally been a vessel to live out the fantastic/ experience another world. This series is still meant to do that. The difference is that it is not the absolute good vs absolute evil, good guy triumphs over all like most fantasy tends to be. Thats nice because its new and different and a wonderful thing. The second that we stop rooting for the character that we want to kick ass happens, is the second that the shock value of killing off good characters goes away, as well as some of the enjoyability because it because just as predictable as all the other high fantasy novels.

3. Now what do you mean you dont understand why people lose interest? That seems like you were just trying to be pretentious again. Of course interest is diminished when your hero dies, thats part of why GRRM does it, to give you that knot in your stomach and make it feel like there is a hole in the story because that helps give the sense of loss, misery, and no hope that the characters in the story feel. That loss makes the rest of the journey more interesting because it stays with you as you read on, helping the reader feel like he is trudging through the misery just like the characters. Now, if you meant a loss of interest to the extent that someone stops reading, yes I agree, I dont understand that either, but there should be some interest lost.

1) To me, it does.I don't enjoy that type of story anymore because I've read it 500 times before. If you do, that's fine, but ASOIAF is a bit less linear and cliche. I like that. Let me put it this way: if Robb, Eddard, and whoever else people are complaining about dying, did NOT die in the story, it would be infinitely less interesting to me. And I'm guessing to a lot of other people as well. I've seen the "Good guys get attacked. Good guys fight back. Good guys fight a big war full of tough times but ultimately win the day to live happily ever after" many times before. I'm not interested in that at all, I don't think it is very captivating storytelling anymore.

2) Nobody said don't root for them. Don't whine on forums about how GRRM is making a mistake by killing your favorite character or act like the story isn't as good because he killed your hero, is all I ask. I'd argue it's better because of those.

3) I'm being unfair by disagreeing with you? Well, that's a rock solid viewpoint to have. I apologize that I do not understand why somebody loses interest in a great story because their hero died, unless that hero was all you liked about the story. I do question how somebody got through 3000 pages of literature when their favorite character was someone that doesn't even have a single POV chapter, but okay, to each their own.

And no, GRRM doesn't kill characters to make his readers lose interest, he kills them because that is the direction he wants to take his story and he feels that direction will make the story better.

For the record, yes, I was referring to people who stop reading. Obviously people will be upset by the RW. I was too. My interest, if anything, SOARED after reading it though.

[The Roaring Bear]

1) To me, it does.I don't enjoy that type of story anymore because I've read it 500 times before. If you do, that's fine, but ASOIAF is a bit less linear and cliche. I like that. Let me put it this way: if Robb, Eddard, and whoever else people are complaining about dying, did NOT die in the story, it would be infinitely less interesting to me. And I'm guessing to a lot of other people as well. I've seen the "Good guys get attacked. Good guys fight back. Good guys fight a big war full of tough times but ultimately win the day to live happily ever after" many times before. I'm not interested in that at all, I don't think it is very captivating storytelling anymore.

2) Nobody said don't root for them. Don't whine on forums about how GRRM is making a mistake by killing your favorite character or act like the story isn't as good because he killed your hero, is all I ask. I'd argue it's better because of those.

3) I'm being unfair by disagreeing with you? Well, that's a rock solid viewpoint to have. I apologize that I do not understand why somebody loses interest in a great story because their hero died, unless that hero was all you liked about the story. I do question how somebody got through 3000 pages of literature when their favorite character was someone that doesn't even have a single POV chapter, but okay, to each their own.

And no, GRRM doesn't kill characters to make his readers lose interest, he kills them because that is the direction he wants to take his story and he feels that direction will make the story better.

For the record, yes, I was referring to people who stop reading. Obviously people will be upset by the RW. I was too. My interest, if anything, SOARED after reading it though.

So it seems you missed the entire point of what I was saying, lets see if the following clarifies:

1. I was saying dont state your personal subjective view as if it were objective fact.

2. It's more grieving than whining.

3. Reread this because you clearly did not understand what I said (Notice the majority of the time my personal opinions actually agree with yours - enjoying the tragedy that is Robb's story, liking that you dont know what to expect).

GRRM does want you to feel a loss from the death fo Robb and Ned (and therefore a loss of some interest - making the story seem bleak and hopeless (which it is - and makes for a better immersion into the world of ASoIF).

[Hear Me Roar!]

1) I wasn't. It's a forum. I shouldn't have to preface every post of mine with big bold lettering saying "THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION."

2) That wasn't the vibe I get from a variety of posts on here. Lots of people whining about it. Lots of people simply grieving but pledging to keep moving forward because the story is so good, too, so props to them.

3) I understood perfectly. Everything I'm posting is obviously not just directed at you. I'm using your post to reply to and expound upon my thoughts regarding the deaths of major characters in ASOIAF, and those who like it and those who complain about it. Don't take everything I say as if it was directed at you personally, just because I quoted your post. I'm assuming you've read the whole series and anxiously await TWOW, so it isn't directed at you.

[Ser Edwyn of Castermere]

You're bloody right, that would be such a bad trick to do us

I hope so, the hope remains in Jon Snow who would be a perfect Lord of Winterfell as Bran is crippled, Sansa useless and Arya not even Lady like, I just hope GRRM won't kill this one as well as he seems to despise the good people.

Another hope would be that some magic give Bran his legs back, it seems there's more and more magic in the story

Hehehe. Boy oh boy. Some dead, some alive. But which ones? Keep reading, guys. It just gets better. Or worse, depending on your loyalties to certain houses.

[LadyJSnow]

GRRM in one of his most recent interviews with TIFF in Canada said that his books are not for people who "don't want to get kicked in the crotch." And he certainly does give us all a good crotch kicking with the Red Wedding. I loved Robb and hope that something good comes to the Starks to make up for the loss of both Robb and Eddard.

As far as Dany goes... meh. There are things I like about her and things that make me crazy. I've just started ADWD, so I know there's tons of stuff about her in there. Here's hoping that she turns out to be a better character. I don't, however, really want to see her as the ruler of Westeros. I want a Stark on that throne more than I can express! ;)

[Lord Yarwyck]

Personally speaking, I feel it is to GRRM's strength that he is prepared to have things like the Red Wedding. In real life, people don't die when it is most dramatically convenient, but when it is most likely. Personally, by the end of A Clash of Kings, I already suspected that Robb was going to lose - against the combined power of the Westerlands, the Stormlands, the Reach and Dorne, and with Winterfell fallen and the Neck cut, he really didn't have a chance. I expected it to end like this.