Sensitive Topic Right Here!

[lostinwesteros]

Thank you for the thread, and for treating it with sensitivity.

I guess for me it's a matter of looking at all of the violence in these books as characteristic of the times for those people who operate without honor. In medieval times [and perhaps even today], that would be the vast majority. It makes the characters who do operate with honor that much more refreshing and awe inspiring.

In terms of 'rape' today, aside from literal rape [including date rape and incest, for example] in our society, I look at many other kinds of 'rape', covert non-physical rape between couples, 'rape' of the 99% by the 1%, for just a few examples. We may not carry swords and spears in this country today, but we definitely continue to wreak violence of all kinds, and across the world, as we all know, there continue to be atrocities that rival those perpetrated by Rorge, Gregor CIegane, etc. in the series. My hope is that for at least part of the world now, it is not a 'given' that a 'husband' has the right to rape or treat violenty his wife or partner. Nor vice versa, as much of the violence is female on male, too, it's just perhaps not as common and not discussed as much.

I really, really like Post #20 by Keep Shelly in Athens.

[Nukelavee]

You can't judge an alien society by your society's laws, morals, or ethics.

Westeros does include the concept of rape as a crime, but, that doesn't include a wife being forced to have sex with her husband.

Robert didn't feel badly because he had sex with Cersei against her will, he feels badly because he was brutal, or rough. It was uncouth, not immoral.

My opinions on the legality of it don't have any weight, in Westeros. Neither does my distaste for the lack of choice on teh part of the wives.

[Lord Godric]

Personally, I think this topic is pointless. Applying modern concepts onto fictional realities that are based historical realities just doesn't work. We, as readers, can condemn Tyrion for "raping" the slave, but a slave's body was considered the master's body and there was nothing wrong with it in the historical context. We can say that Drogo "raped" Dany, but in a historical context political marriages occurred all the time and the women had no say. And once they were married their body belonged to their husband.

According to our modern ideas of rape and morality, of course both of these actions are wrong. But I'm not sure what purpose this thread has as we are removing the "historical" context and applying modern one's. We can judge them and condemn them all we want, but there really is no point.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Personally, I think this topic is pointless. Applying modern concepts onto fictional realities that are based historical realities just doesn't work. We, as readers, can condemn Tyrion for "raping" the slave, but a slave's body was considered the master's body and there was nothing wrong with it in the historical context. We can say that Drogo "raped" Dany, but in a historical context political marriages occurred all the time and the women had no say. And once they were married their body belonged to their husband.

According to our modern ideas of rape and morality, of course both of these actions are wrong. But I'm not sure what purpose this thread has as we are removing the "historical" context and applying modern one's. We can judge them and condemn them all we want, but there really is no point.

why thank you

[Fire_Kiss]

But she didn't consent to the marriage-she explicity tells Viserys so:

'Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her. "I don't want to be his queen," she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. "Please, please, Viserys, I don't want to, I want to go home."'

You know, that's a good point. I generally took this as showing how young and scared she was. There are many experiences I've had in my life where I said. "I don't want to, I want to go home." (as an exact example, when I was 11, I was sent off to live with my dad, who I hadn't seen in 6 years. I really didn't want to go, but I ended up enjoying it.)

So, perhaps we see this in different lights due to our experiences.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Personally, I think this topic is pointless. Applying modern concepts onto fictional realities that are based historical realities just doesn't work. We, as readers, can condemn Tyrion for "raping" the slave, but a slave's body was considered the master's body and there was nothing wrong with it in the historical context. We can say that Drogo "raped" Dany, but in a historical context political marriages occurred all the time and the women had no say. And once they were married their body belonged to their husband.

According to our modern ideas of rape and morality, of course both of these actions are wrong. But I'm not sure what purpose this thread has as we are removing the "historical" context and applying modern one's. We can judge them and condemn them all we want, but there really is no point.

I think that's probably accurate and what I was trying to communicate. The reason the topic exists is because I think its quite frequent that a character is condemned for a set of actions that is completely in keeping with the norms of the broader society. Usually it seems that the basis for these condemnations are personal preference. When first we meet Ned he's decapitating a man for running away from a magical enemy capable of reanimating the dead. Yet some assert that he's noble while Sandor Clegane is some sort of monster.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

When first we meet Ned he's decapitating a man for running away from a magical enemy capable of reanimating the dead. Yet some assert that he's noble while Sandor Clegane is some sort of monster.

I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I never thought Ned was noble for behedding that boy. he was being a judgmental arrogant noble arse and refused to see beyond. Same as he viewed Jaime for slaying the man who burned his father and brother alive.)

[Winter's Knight]

I think that's probably accurate and what I was trying to communicate. The reason the topic exists is because I think its quite frequent that a character is condemned for a set of actions that is completely in keeping with the norms of the broader society. Usually it seems that the basis for these condemnations are personal preference. When first we meet Ned he's decapitating a man for running away from a magical enemy capable of reanimating the dead. Yet some assert that he's noble while Sandor Clegane is some sort of monster.

Except that the action I am speaking of is recognised as wrong in-world by a perpretater.

Robert is ashamed of raping Cersei.

Tyion recognises that bedding Sansa against her will would not be right.

[Winter's Knight]

You know, that's a good point. I generally took this as showing how young and scared she was. There are many experiences I've had in my life where I said. "I don't want to, I want to go home." (as an exact example, when I was 11, I was sent off to live with my dad, who I hadn't seen in 6 years. I really didn't want to go, but I ended up enjoying it.)

So, perhaps we see this in different lights due to our experiences.

I only brought it up because earlier you said that Dany agreed to the wedding recognising that she would have to consummate it.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

...but no one else would have viewed Tyrion as being "bad" if he had chosen to bed her anyways.....

and no one thought ill of Robert

[Fire_Kiss]

I only brought it up because earlier you said that Dany agreed to the wedding recognising that she would have to consummate it.

Yeah, I know. you brought up a really good point, and I...don't really have anything smart to say after that.

I haven't changed my opinion, but I think I can at least see where you're coming from, which IMHO, is more important that agreeing with you. (hope you can respect that. :) )

[Lord Godric]

When first we meet Ned he's decapitating a man for running away from a magical enemy capable of reanimating the dead. Yet some assert that he's noble while Sandor Clegane is some sort of monster.

I think that is a poor example to use to illustrate your point. Ned didn't know that the Others were actually back, he was doing his job and deserting the Night's Watch which is a crime punishable by death.

As for Clegane...well I do think he is a monster even by Westerosi standards.

[Winter's Knight]

...but no one else would have viewed Tyrion as being "bad" if he had chosen to bed her anyways.....

and no one thought ill of Robert

What I'm saying is, can we continue to make the "It's a different society" argument when the very perpetrator recognises that he is in the wrong?

Robert is not one to muse long upon equal rights and morality after all.

[Lord Godric]

...but no one else would have viewed Tyrion as being "bad" if he had chosen to bed her anyways.....

and no one thought ill of Robert

Right. Sansa and Cersei were property of their wives, they were socially expected to give sex to their husbands whenever they wanted them. Whereas Tyrion and Robert may be having breakthroughs of modern morality, in their society their actions are/would have been entirely accepted. That is how we have to look at these events first and foremost.

[Maroucia]

Except that the action I am speaking of is recognised as wrong in-world by a perpretater.

Robert is ashamed of raping Cersei.

Tyion recognises that bedding Sansa against her will would not be right.

It shows that those people have some sort of conscience, which is good and give some hope on the regard of westeros society, but that does not change that their scale on morality is based on their society.

[Fire_Kiss]

...but no one else would have viewed Tyrion as being "bad" if he had chosen to bed her anyways.....

and no one thought ill of Robert

Like, Jamie? He definately thought ill of Robert.

Or how about Lyanna, who said she knew he'd never keep to one bed?

And I bet folks would have considered Tyrion a bad person for bedding Sansa. I'm not one of them, but I think it may have been a huge point of contention. Personally, I think Tyrion having sex with the slave after puking all over the place was a brilliant scene. It was brilliantly disgusting-showing Tyrion at the (possibly) lowest point in his life.

I don't think Tyrion raped the slave whore in the westerosi standards...but he was being needlessly crude, ruthless, and mean.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I think that is a poor example to use to illustrate your point. Ned didn't know that the Others were actually back, he was doing his job and deserting the Night's Watch which is a crime punishable by death.

As for Clegane...well I do think he is a monster even by Westerosi standards.

Sandor Clegane? What does he ever do to anyone? As for Ned, yes he was doing his job, that's precisely my point. Its ok with him to just kill this guy without even ascertaining what's going on with him. What Ned does is ok because it fits within the context of his role within the society but when Drogo has sex with his wife its rape? Sandor is a monster because for acting as the Crown Prince's personal shield, and acceptable role with in his society? Sandor is a monster by Westerosi Standards and so is Jamie but Robert or Hoster Tully are perfectly acceptable. What seems to make someone a monster in Westeros is their appearance rather than their actions.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

What I'm saying is, can we continue to make the "It's a different society" argument when the very perpetrator recognises that he is in the wrong?

Robert is not one to muse long upon equal rights and morality after all.

Where does this happen in the text?

[Machinist]

Everything that we perceive as human being is relative; there is NO logic in life! Nothing is good or wrong; it’s us as human being that try to make some logic of the world, so, yes, the good and the bad only exist in the mind of the person who does it.

exactly, we are evolved from monkeys for christ sake, we only got to the stage to work together peacefully under the rules of law because it benefits us the majority of the time

Except that the action I am speaking of is recognised as wrong in-world by a perpretater.

Robert is ashamed of raping Cersei.

Tyion recognises that bedding Sansa against her will would not be right.

robert did it because he had to be drunk and he used her as a object and to fore fill his role as husband/king and to make a heir he felt guilt because it was a loveless marriage, she loved him, he never loved her and couldnt because he still loved neds sister even though shes dead and basicly as you put it "raping" her is the only way he could preform, hes in his full right considering the society and the subject matter of the books as its a medieval fantasy.

tyrion never did it because he actually felt guilt and morse for sansa and the starks even trying to get some revenge and justice for them, he had a conscience yet again hes in his full right considering the society and the subject matter of the books as its a medieval fantasy.

slaves are used as a object and dont have the same level of rights, they have no say.

if you went back in a time machine, all this stuff happened in reality in periods in history, you cannot write a book on this subject without sticking to the subject matter, that doesnt mean its wrong. they are following westeros laws similiar to what they would be back in the day, rapers still get punished and it happens in the book, obviously times have changed but it doesnt matter, the books arent based on the 21st century.

[Lord Godric]

And I bet folks would have considered Tyrion a bad person for bedding Sansa. I'm not one of them, but I think it may have been a huge point of contention.

I very highly doubt this. There is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort. If anyone was going to hate Tyrion for his relationship with Sansa it would simply be just for marrying her. But bedding her after they were married, no one would hold against him. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.