Sensitive Topic Right Here!

[Machinist]

I very highly doubt this. There is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort. If anyone was going to hate Tyrion for his relationship with Sansa it would simply be just for marrying her. But bedding her after they were married, no one would hold against him. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

didnt that quote mean from the POV of the reader?

[Winter's Knight]

Where does this happen in the text?

A Feast For Crows:

'For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so hewould have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced herdispleasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” '

[Lord Godric]

Sandor is a monster because for acting as the Crown Prince's personal shield, and acceptable role with in his society? Sandor is a monster by Westerosi Standards and so is Jamie but Robert or Hoster Tully are perfectly acceptable. What seems to make someone a monster in Westeros is their appearance rather than their actions.

Well, I don't want to go off on too large of a tanget about Sandor Clegane, but it is pretty clear that Ned was disgusted that Sandor ran down and violently killed Mycah, only to joke that he didn't run very fast. Their society certainly was brutal and murdering people happened, but Ned was visibly shocked at Sandor's actions which shows he was excessively brutal even by Westeros standards. Sandor does appear much softer later on, but this image has always stuck with me.

And I take great offense that you would think I give a damn about Sandor's appearance and use that to judge him.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Except that the action I am speaking of is recognised as wrong in-world by a perpretater.

Robert is ashamed of raping Cersei.

Tyion recognises that bedding Sansa against her will would not be right.

I don't recall Robert saying he'd raped Cersei or feeling bad about having sex with her. Do you have a quote?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Well, I don't want to go off on too large of a tanget about Sandor Clegane, but it is pretty clear that Ned was disgusted that Sandor ran down and violently killed Mycah, only to joke that he didn't run very fast. Their society certainly was brutal and murdering people happened, but Ned was visibly shocked at Sandor's actions which shows he was excessively brutal even by Westeros standards. Sandor does appear much softer later on, but this image has always stuck with me.

And I take great offense that you would think I give a damn about Sandor's appearance and use that to judge him.

No I don't think you're judging him based on his appearance, I think that's why westerosi treat him as a monster. I think Mycah is the one situation is the one thing he's done that's questionable but as is pointed out when he's put on trial by Brotherhood without Borders the Crown Prince and his betrothed are lying to him about what Mycah is accused of doing. I think this is more acceptable than what Ned does.

[Maroucia]

Well, I don't want to go off on too large of a tanget about Sandor Clegane, but it is pretty clear that Ned was disgusted that Sandor ran down and violently killed Mycah, only to joke that he didn't run very fast. Their society certainly was brutal and murdering people happened, but Ned was visibly shocked at Sandor's actions which shows he was excessively brutal even by Westeros standards. Sandor does appear much softer later on, but this image has always stuck with me.

And I take great offense that you would think I give a damn about Sandor's appearance and use that to judge him.

Well, I don't want to go off on too large of a tanget about Sandor Clegane, but it is pretty clear that Ned was disgusted that Sandor ran down and violently killed Mycah, only to joke that he didn't run very fast. Their society certainly was brutal and murdering people happened, but Ned was visibly shocked at Sandor's actions which shows he was excessively brutal even by Westeros standards. Sandor does appear much softer later on, but this image has always stuck with me.

And I take great offense that you would think I give a damn about Sandor's appearance and use that to judge him.

The Westerosi sociaty do have a morality code, no one will argue about that. But about the Micah killing, nobody seems to be offended by it apart from Ned (and Arya). It was commended by the QUENN!

So I don’t think Sandor is to blame…

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

A Feast For Crows:

'For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so hewould have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced herdispleasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” '

OK. Well reading that I did not interpret that as rape but just that Cersei was not attracted to Robert. The thing that Robert expressed regret about was hurting her. Which I don't think is inconsistent with consentual sex.

[Winter's Knight]

OK. Well reading that I did not interpret that as rape but just that Cersei was not attracted to Robert. The thing that Robert expressed regret about was hurting her. Which I don't think is inconsistent with consentual sex.

Perhaps.

She does continue though:

'The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.'

[childofsummer]

I very highly doubt this. There is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort. If anyone was going to hate Tyrion for his relationship with Sansa it would simply be just for marrying her. But bedding her after they were married, no one would hold against him. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

Didn't GRRM say that, while marriages were often contracted between younger people for political reasons, bedding a bride under 16 or so would be considered perverse? I seem to remember reading that he said (maybe in a SSM?) most Westerosi husbands wedded to young girls waited, and were expected to wait, to consummate the marriage until the girl had reached majority, and that doing otherwise would be frowned upon.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Perhaps.

She does continue though:

'The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.'

Yeah. I think she'd need to say something to him, less like "you hurt me" and more like "I don't want to have sex with you" in order for it to be rape, in the context of them being married.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Didn't GRRM say that, while marriages were often contracted between younger people for political reasons, bedding a bride under 16 or so would be considered perverse? I seem to remember reading that he said (maybe in a SSM?) most Westerosi husbands wedded to young girls waited, and were expected to wait, to consummate the marriage until the girl had reached majority, and that doing otherwise would be frowned upon.

I thought it was that they had to consummate the marriage once and then wait until later.

[Winter's Knight]

Didn't GRRM say that, while marriages were often contracted between younger people for political reasons, bedding a bride under 16 or so would be considered perverse? I seem to remember reading that he said (maybe in a SSM?) most Westerosi husbands wedded to young girls waited, and were expected to wait, to consummate the marriage until the girl had reached majority, and that doing otherwise would be frowned upon.

I cannot speak for SSMs but in text it is stated that over and over that consumation is required for a wedding to be valid.

If one were to wait till the bride reached majority, a betrothal would suit just as well-unless you're Robb Stark.

[Maroucia]

Didn't GRRM say that, while marriages were often contracted between younger people for political reasons, bedding a bride under 16 or so would be considered perverse? I seem to remember reading that he said (maybe in a SSM?) most Westerosi husbands wedded to young girls waited, and were expected to wait, to consummate the marriage until the girl had reached majority, and that doing otherwise would be frowned upon.

Didn't GRRM say that, while marriages were often contracted between younger people for political reasons, bedding a bride under 16 or so would be considered perverse? I seem to remember reading that he said (maybe in a SSM?) most Westerosi husbands wedded to young girls waited, and were expected to wait, to consummate the marriage until the girl had reached majority, and that doing otherwise would be frowned upon.

Remember old Walder Frey wedded a 15 year old girl, and he was old… I don’t think he waited… ewww

[Fire_Kiss]

I very highly doubt this. There is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort. If anyone was going to hate Tyrion for his relationship with Sansa it would simply be just for marrying her. But bedding her after they were married, no one would hold against him. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

Really? The fact that we're having (a surprisingly civil discussion) about weather or not Drogo raped Dany is the best evidence I have toward saying that some folks would take issue with Tyrion having sex with Sansa. :cool4:

[Raksha the Demon]

I think that is a poor example to use to illustrate your point. Ned didn't know that the Others were actually back, he was doing his job and deserting the Night's Watch which is a crime punishable by death.

As for Clegane...well I do think he is a monster even by Westerosi standards.

There was no evidence to sustain the deserter's claim that the Others were back; Ned had no reason to believe a man who had apparently run from his duty. Hasn't the death penalty been used on at least some deserters in our world for millenia, though mercifully it is employed less often now? Sadly for the men of the Night's Watch, desertion is a crime punishable by death; and as the Warden of the North, it was Ned's duty to enforce that penalty. He didn't do it because he enjoyed decapitating people, or had some personal vendetta against the poor guy.

[childofsummer]

I cannot speak for SSMs but in text it is stated that over and over that consumation is required for a wedding to be valid.

If one were to wait till the bride reached majority, a betrothal would suit just as well-unless you're Robb Stark.

I'm not sure it's required for a wedding to be valid, just that an unconsummated marriage *may* be annulled by the High Septon at the request of one of the parties.

Found the reference: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1050/

According to GRRM, while flowering technically makes a girl eligible for wedding/bedding, the common practice is to wait until the girl is 15 or 16 due to increased mortality in childbed at younger ages.

[Winter's Knight]

Really? The fact that we're having (a surprisingly civil discussion) about weather or not Drogo raped Dany is the best evidence I have toward saying that some folks would take issue with Tyrion having sex with Sansa. :cool4:

I believe Lord Godric was talking about people in world?

I'm not sure it's required for a wedding to be valid, just that an unconsummated marriage *may* be annulled by the High Septon at the request of one of the parties.

Found the reference: http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1050/

According to GRRM, while flowering technically makes a girl eligible for wedding/bedding, the common practice is to wait until the girl is 15 or 16 due to increased mortality in childbed at younger ages.

So there was a concept of majority for girls.

Then I suppose one could argue that Tyrion is a paedophile in-world as well as by modern standards.

[Lord Godric]

I'm not sure it's required for a wedding to be valid, just that an unconsummated marriage *may* be annulled by the High Septon at the request of one of the parties.

Found the reference: http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1050/

According to GRRM, while flowering technically makes a girl eligible for wedding/bedding, the common practice is to wait until the girl is 15 or 16 due to increased mortality in childbed at younger ages.

How about we directly quote Martin on this:

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

<snip>

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.

Again, if Tyrion had decided to bed Sansa he would have been entirely within social norms. "Maidens may be wedded and bedded" as Martin says. The only reason to wait until a bride is a little older is because she will have a better chance of surviving childbirth. Not because morally it is wrong. The only thing that is considered "perverse" is bedding a girl who had not yet 'flowered.'

[Lord Godric]

Then I suppose one could argue that Tyrion is a paedophile in-world as well as by modern standards.

I, actually, don't think one could argue that. Not only does the quote from Martin argue otherwise. Marriages, and one can assume beddings, of girls that young happens frequently in Westeros.

[Maroucia]

I was really surprised he actually didn’t do it. Pleased but surprised.