Howl at the Moon

[Bran Vras]

Yes, Brashcandy, I'd be delighted if somebody could explain the skulls in the weirwood at Whitetree. Whitetree is interesting because it seems the largest weirwood we have seen, and therefore, perhaps, the oldest. Instead of having a face, is has a little cave inside where human remains are found. Another mystery.

However, I like very much the connection between the weirwood and the Moon. That would fit well with the weirwood pin on Val's cloak, if Val is a Moonsinger. And that would fit also with my more speculative suggestion that Morna White Mask might be related to the Moonsingers as well.

[Bran Vras]

For what it is worth, I did a bit or research on moonstones. Elaena already mentioned Sansa's fondness for moonstones, and that it seems to be the favourite gemstone in the Vale.

There is a large moonstone set on Nightfall, ancestral Valyrian sword of House Harlaw. I wonder if moonstones and rubies have a similar power, while representing opposing forces. The Valyrian sword of house Corbray is set with a ruby. Illyrio Mopatis seems fond of rubies, and wears all kind of precious stones on his fingers, but no moonstone. Finally, in the Mystery Knight, Maynard Plumm has a large moonstone (and he seems to be Bloodraven glamoured). So moonstones and rubies could be ingredients of magic but they don't mix.

Edit: And here is another symmetry between white magic and red magic: Morna White Mask and Quaithe. (We had already Val and Melisandre.)

[brashcandy]

For what it is worth, I did a bit or research on moonstones. Elaena already mentioned Sansa's fondness for moonstones, and that it seems to be the favourite gemstone in the Vale.

There is a large moonstone set on Nightfall, ancestral Valyrian sword of House Harlaw. I wonder if moonstones and rubies have a similar power, while representing opposing forces. The Valyrian sword of house Corbray is set with a ruby. Illyrio Mopatis seems fond of rubies, and wears all kind of precious stones on his fingers, but no moonstone. Finally, in the Mystery Knight, Maynard Plumm has a large moonstone (and he seems to be Bloodraven glamoured). So moonstones and rubies could be ingredients of magic but they don't mix.

Edit: And here is another symmetry between white magic and red magic: Morna White Mask and Quaithe. (We had already Val and Melisandre.)

Hmmm, I like your theory :) The rubies representing fire, and the moonstones representing ice.

[Bran Vras]

Two other things just to add to everything is Cat of the Cannals mentions, and is around, a Moon Pool in Braavos a lot. (it's probably connected to the MS) Also a cortesan called the Moonshadow, who wears white with silver only, heard Daeron, the one Arya kills for deserting the NW, singing (I think by the Moon Pool) and she gave him a kiss.

I just found a little unauthorized map of Braavos here (I guess it is by the boarder Errant Bard).

I just noticed the Moon Pool in Braavos. I have no idea about its function and importance. We just know that Braavos often duel nearby, and that the better inns of the city are located in the neighbourhood.

[Lummel]

I just found a little unauthorized map of Braavos here (I guess it is by the boarder Errant Bard)...

Other-in-Law was the boarder who did them, Errant Bard has done the fine time line. (Credit where its due :) )

[Lykos]

The way the Moonpool is depicted in this map, it´s used as a sweetwater reservoir fed by the sweetwater river aqueduct. But it´s speculation, yet I think it makes sense that the people of Braavos name important facilities after the moon, if the Moon Singers are their main religion. It would be proof how important this religion is.

[Black Crow]

Another moon reference not mentioned above is the moon door in the Eyrie. In the TV version its a circular (moon-shaped?) hatch in the floor of the throne room, but in the book it is indeed a door. Either way, was it originally used to sacrifice to the moon?

[Lummel]

Something I heard the other day and maybe not relevant at all (but I'll share anyway ;) ) is that in the far, far north there's a tendency towards moon deities being more important or the chief god because the moon is visible all the year round while the sun isn't. I'm not sure if Westeros is inhabited that far north but if it was and people enslaved from there were carried south to the mines of old valyria it wouldn't be terribly surprising if they led their people back towards the north again and thus ended up at Braavos (or the marshy site where they founded it at any rate).

[Bran Vras]

Something I heard the other day and maybe not relevant at all (but I'll share anyway ;) ) is that in the far, far north there's a tendency towards moon deities being more important or the chief god because the moon is visible all the year round while the sun isn't. I'm not sure if Westeros is inhabited that far north but if it was and people enslaved from there were carried south to the mines of old valyria it wouldn't be terribly surprising if they led their people back towards the north again and thus ended up at Braavos (or the marshy site where they founded it at any rate).

In the Wolf's Den, Ser Bartimus told the story of the slaves imprisoned there during a terrible winter. The slavers were from the Stepstones, and could have easily traded with Valyria. So it's entirely possible that people from the North, and even from beyond the Wall, ended in the mines of Valyria.

The Faceless Men have their roots in the mines of Valyria. But there is no indication that the moonsinger tradition was born among the slaves. Were the moonsingers that led the slave of Valyria from a northern tradition, perhaps beyond the wall? Has this tradition been continually alive among the wildlings? That's speculative, but that would explain that there is a moonsinger tradition present among the wildlings as well as among the slaves escaped from Valyria.

Another moon reference not mentioned above is the moon door in the Eyrie. In the TV version its a circular (moon-shaped?) hatch in the floor of the throne room, but in the book it is indeed a door. Either way, was it originally used to sacrifice to the moon?

Here is the description of the door in AGoT:

A narrow weirwood door stood between two slender marble pillars, a crescent moon carved in the white wood.

Another association between weirwoods and the moon.

[Fire Eater]

Another moon reference not mentioned above is the moon door in the Eyrie. In the TV version its a circular (moon-shaped?) hatch in the floor of the throne room, but in the book it is indeed a door. Either way, was it originally used to sacrifice to the moon?

The moon door is part of the Eyrie which was built by the Arryns who worship the Seven, the chances it was used for sacrifices to the moon is unlikely.

But one can still see the connection between the Old Gods and the moon. The moon is mentioned several times throughout the last Bran chapter. Unlike the Sun which is hot and covered in fire, the moon is cold and covered in ice; while the sun is always bright, the moon can cast light when full (I know sunlight is reflected off the moon), and there are times when the moon is completely covered in darkness instead of light, and when the moon is different parts light and dark.

The moon is also connected to water(ice) as it controls the tides, when there is a full moon the water level is highest. The CotF and the Old Gods are connected to water.

[Black Crow]

The moon door is part of the Eyrie which was built by the Arryns who worship the Seven, the chances it was used for sacrifices to the moon is unlikely.

They may be now, but were they always? It seems odd that a weirwood door dedicated to the moon should be used for tossing people out if there wasn't some connection.

[Fire Eater]

They may be now, but were they always? It seems odd that a weirwood door dedicated to the moon should be used for tossing people out if there wasn't some connection.

The Arryns are oldest and purest line of Andal nobility, the same Andals who came to Westeros with the Faith of the Seven. Plus, the moon is part of the sigil of House Arryn, which would explain the name of the Moon Door and the Gates of the Moon.

[Lykos]

I think the Andals believed in the Moonsingers before they created the Faith of the Seven. They matched the Maid, the Mother and the Crone with Father, Warrior and Smith (, who according to Illyrio must have been Rhoynish, for the Rhoynar tought the Andals how to work iron.) and added the Stranger. The question is when did they do this?

Maybe they were still worshipping the Moonsingers, when they landed at the Fingers and took the Vale. They probably named the Moon Mountains and the Eyrie is in fact a Moon Temple.

[Lummel]

Was the Vale empty before the Andals came? Quite possible that some the place names and symbols come from the first men who were there...first just as in Britain there are (or so people who study these things claim) celtic names (like The Thames) in places were there hasn't been a celtic speaking population for 1400 / 1500 years.

The Royces have bronze armour covered in runes which also suggests some cultural borrowings.

ETA also the Moon does not reflect the light of the Sun, it is made of green cheese and the light comes from the Man in the Moon's lantern. It is known.

[Lykos]

<snip> the Moon does not reflect the light of the Sun, it is made of green cheese <snip>

Ah, that´s why Hati chases the moon, I always wondered, a wolf fond of young cheese, who´d have guessed.

But seriously, Hati chases the moon while his brother Skalli chases the sun the third brother Managarm feeds on the flesh of the dead an becomes the largest of the pack. When Hati catches the moon, Managarm guzzles it and the droplets of blood eclipse the sun and it will be the end of the world, Ragnarok (according to the german Wiki page on Managarm).

[Elaena Targaryen]

Something else about the Eyrie has me curious, no weirwood in the intended godswood. The only (I think) confirmed weirwoods south of the Wall that survived the Andal invasion are in the North and at Raventree Hall. It seems the other weirwoods in the godswoods at various castles may have been a little younger and might have been a condition of some kind of pact with the Andals and the North, which is speculation of course. Or even not cutting and burning weirwoods in general, because there were enough weirwoods felled for beams and rafters for Harrenhal and Whitewalls, (for HH weirwoods that had stood for 3 thousand years) speculating again but this was probably not a good thing at all. So did the Eyrie have a weirwood before the conquest? Why did they try so hard to (replace it?) plant a weirwood in the intended godswood? Why wasn't a different tree used as the heart tree like we have seen in KL? The most likely answer is that the soil was too stoney because we have seen the deep rooted system of weirwoods through the caves of the BWB and the children, but surley another tree would have taken root.

AGOT Catelyn:

The builders had intended it as a godswood, but the Eyrie rested on the hard stone of the mountain, and no matter how much soil was hauled up from the Vale, they could not get a weirwood to take root here. So the Lords of the Eyrie planted grass and scattered statuary amidst low, flowering shrubs.

Later in ASOS (?) Sansa thinks there is no weirwood because the soil is too stoney and Bran thinks about the island of Queenscrown being too stoney for weirwoods. Now that should say it all but there is something else that I'm not sure about.

ACOK Jon:

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .A weirwood. It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Now if there was really an actual weirwood growing here that Bran manipulated then that makes me question what happened in the Eyrie. If this was a real weirwood then I wonder if the Eyrie could not grow a weirwood because they tried in the summer and it was not enough moonlight for the weirwood to live. We know they do not stay there in colder seasons so the only attempts were in warmer weather. So this fits with the theory that weirwoods need the moon to grow, or are moon trees. Well anyway that's my crackpot for the day. :)

[Lummel]

...Hati chases the moon while his brother Skalli chases the sun the third brother Managarm feeds on the flesh of the dead an becomes the largest of the pack. When Hati catches the moon, Managarm guzzles it and the droplets of blood eclipse the sun and it will be the end of the world, Ragnarok...

A pack of dire wolves chase, born of the same father, catch and eat the moon to bring about teh end of the world. Hmm. Watch out Val. The Starks are hungry.

Now if there was really an actual weirwood growing here that Bran manipulated then that makes me question what happened in the Eyrie. If this was a real weirwood then I wonder if the Eyrie could not grow a weirwood because they tried in the summer and it was not enough moonlight for the weirwood to live. We know they do not stay there in colder seasons so the only attempts were in warmer weather. So this fits with the theory that weirwoods need the moon to grow, or are moon trees. Well anyway that's my crackpot for the day. :)

You are comparing real weirwoods with a dream weirwood and somehow I don't think they would grow in the same way - although there are examples of weirwoods growing in some unlikely places - in the yard of the abandoned castle in AFFC that ground is going to be hard packed and stony and inside the nightfort which is going to be even stonier than the Eyrie. So I think your moonlight theory might be pretty good.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I read this thread yesterday then went back to rereading storm. When Jon tells Ghost to go back to Castle Black he comments on how he knew where to find him because would be up high close to the moon or something even though he had no voice. If wolves are moon singers i wonder how it relates to Jon and Ghost as Ghost has no voice to sing

[Bran Vras]

The Arryns are oldest and purest line of Andal nobility, the same Andals who came to Westeros with the Faith of the Seven. Plus, the moon is part of the sigil of House Arryn, which would explain the name of the Moon Door and the Gates of the Moon.

I haven't realized that the Arryns claimed a pure Andal nobility. I wonder if the sigil of House Arryn is not a synthesis of something that comes from the First Men and something that was brought by the Andal. I guess the falcon comes from the Andal, since, according to the legend, the falcon has defeated the earlier griffin. The mountains have been called mountains of the Moon for very long, I suppose.

As Lummel points out, there seems to be more traces of the First Men in the Vale than in any other part of the Seven Kingdoms, besides the north. I am not sure where the culture of the clans stands though. So my guess is that below the surface of the "seven worshippers, pure Andals" there are traces of old ways, the moon on the sigil being one.

I read this thread yesterday then went back to rereading storm. When Jon tells Ghost to go back to Castle Black he comments on how he knew where to find him because would be up high close to the moon or something even though he had no voice. If wolves are moon singers i wonder how it relates to Jon and Ghost as Ghost has no voice to sing

It seems likely that in the moonsinger tradition the moon serves as a guide. In ADwD, there is a remark of Jon which resonates with what you are saying. As he goes back to the Wall with the group of wildlings found in the weirwood grove, Jon thinks: "They had no moon to guide them home".

[Black Crow]

An interesting parallel with the Vale may be Scotland. According to the "official" histories the Caledonians (aka the Picts) were defeated by the Scots who came across from Ireland, with Alpin being the first king of Scotland. In fact modern scholarship now holds that there weren't too many Scots and that Alpin's line became kings of a united Scotland becase he married a Pictish princess.

The same may have happened in the Vale with the Arryns marrying rather than massacring the original nobility, which could account for survivals such as moon worship.