Thrice the Hound Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Good conversation. A lot of good arguments on both sides.I'm of a mind that Blackfish is misleading Jaime on his opinion of Jon, and that after he escaped from Riverrun he is in fact heading for the wall. I have to imagine that a guy as prodigious as the Blackfish, he would have found out about Robb naming Jon his heir. Robb may have even discussed it with him previously. I think he is heading towards the wall because odds are no one is heading that way to tell Jon that he even is the heir. Also, no one expects him to do it. If you're trying to evade your enemies, doing the unexpected is the best course of action.Him contacting the Brotherhood without Banners is the popular theory, but other than proximity, there isn't too much of anything to point to that definitively. He definitely won't go to the Vale with Littlefinger there.I like this. It would be a very smart idea indeed. Even if Jeyne Westerling is with the Blackfish as others suggest he would probably think Jon is their safest bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Grylls of Skagos Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 He has the same stupid over assuming Tully mentality as Catelyn and Lysa where every bastard and Lannister is an evil asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeyouintee Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 He is a sign of Ned being unfaithful to his niece, and Ned raising him as a son could be seen as a mild insult to House Tully. Plus, any information he would have received about Jon would have come through Cat's skewed opinions.I think people forget when they're reading fiction that the old adage is true: "the simplest explanation is often the correct one." and if used well, it makes the fiction more believable. The huge extravagant plot conspiracies that a lot of people here come up with cheapen it, until it feels like a daytime soap opera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrice the Hound Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Since when has aSoIaF been about simple explanation? I know my conspiracist brain winds up in overdrive because of the lack of straight forward throughout this series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeyouintee Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Since when has aSoIaF been about simple explanation? I know my conspiracist brain winds up in overdrive because of the lack of straight forward throughout this series.A lot of it is the simplest explanation. You're probably confusing predictability with simplicity. People over-dramatize, which is the daytime soap opera effect I mentioned earlier. A point can come completely out of left field and be extremely simple and not needlessly sappy. Martin does this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summerqueen Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 This is the Blackfish we're talking about. His own struggles against being forced into marriage lead me to presume he would be nothing but tolerant of any difficulties Ned may have had adjusting to his own marriage, including the getting of a bastard. Do we really have reason to believe the BLACKFISH is so in line with house thinking re: Jon? No, i really don't think so. It makes much more sense that there's a new development he's been made aware of or it's a diversionary tactic. My bet is on diversionary tactic.ETA: Martin makes so much use of shocking sexual violence, baby-daddy concerns, and revenge, how is this series NOT overly dramatic? It's got drama coming out it's nose. Turn the page. Lya's baby daddy. Turn the page. Incest. Turn the page. Infidelity. Turn the page. Fall down an elevator shaft . . . Erm, a tower... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrice the Hound Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 A lot of it is the simplest explanation. You're probably confusing predictability with simplicity. People over-dramatize, which is the daytime soap opera effect I mentioned earlier. A point can come completely out of left field and be extremely simple and not needlessly sappy. Martin does this.I get it :D but no I am not confusing the words lol I would not say that this series is free from complexity and guile and the rest. I just don't agree that we all come up with these ideas for no reason I think Martin's writing encorages it. :) It makes it more popular because you have to think and examine things to find the clues even if we end up way off and soap operaish. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeyouintee Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 lol @ "shocking violence = overly dramatic."BTW:You're using "shocking" as a synonym for "unpredictable," which does not = dramatic. Thanks, try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Grylls of Skagos Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 wtf?Sons kill father, Brother fucks sister, Man dies trying to save his friend, Man dies trying to get revenge for his sister,heroes die in wedding like rats and ASOIAF is not dramatic? :-/You must be a woman :DNo offense meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I think people just like the Blackfish, and they like Jon, and they want the two to like each other. Tough shit.I like Sandor Clegane, and I also like Tyrion. But it's still very clear to me that the Hound has a deep, irrational hatred for the Imp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summerqueen Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 lol @ "shocking violence = overly dramatic."BTW:You're using "shocking" as a synonym for "unpredictable," which does not = dramatic. Thanks, try again.Um. I think you need to try again. Considering that one meaning for dramatic is "sudden and striking." lol or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Baratheon Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 He has the same stupid over assuming Tully mentality as Catelyn and Lysa where every bastard and Lannister is an evil asshole.And you have the same prejudice like most readers that a Tully=Stupid idiot.The Blackfish is not Edmure or Lysa,he fought in the war of the ninepenny kings,distinguishes himself thoroughly in it,fought against the kingswood brotherhood,was responsible for Robb's victories in the war.He is badass.Even ur beloved Jaime used to drool all over The Blackfish as a kid(see AFFC jaime's POV right before he confronts brynden)I feel sad that u cannot appreciate the greatness and badassery that is The Blackfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Maybe the Blackfish read Jon's chapters and got bored out of his mind. Totally understandable. Seriously - I think he was honest there. Jon was chosen as LC at a really young age when Tywin was the main power in the realm. It's normal to assume he was likely bought by Tywin and became LCC thanks to his influence. It's the most logical explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a free shadow Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 How would the Blackfish have seen Robb's Will? As someone said, he was holding Riverrun, not present at the signing.What do you mean, prodigious? It's not because you're a good soldier that you can read something on a paper held by folks hundred of kilometres North of you. Especially if you are on the run.Edmure was at the signing and he talked to Blackfish planning his escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Edmure talked to the Blackfish after Brynden's chat with Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a free shadow Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Edmure talked to the Blackfish after Brynden's chat with Jaime.That is absolutely correct. Unless, unless ... they have a secret sign language, you know, Edmure was in perfect exposition for days to show signs for Blackfish :lol:How do you think he portrayed Jon for Blackfish to understand who he has is mind?No, I understand. And you are right, I am wrong. Thanks ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 It's a small point, but it sticks in my craw because (1) I really respect Blackfish, and (2) I hate the idea of someone like him holding Catelyn's grudge against Jon without good reason. I know it's silly, but there you have it.I think the thing is that Jon as a bastard is an insult to Catelyn and by extension the Tully House, and that for some reason the Blackfish is compelled to transfer his dislike of Eddard for getting a bastard to the bastard itself, rather than Eddard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 During that whole conversation anything positive that Jaime tries to suggest, the Blackfish responds negatively to. So when Jaime suggests that Brynden can join Ned's Starks bastard as if it is a good thing, of course the Blackfish is going to say that Jon must be untrustworthy. He obviously knew Cat's opinion, but I doubt he had ever actually given enough thought to Jon to form his own opinion of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Edmure was at the signing and he talked to Blackfish planning his escape.That event occurred after the Blackfish's confrontation with Jaime, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Duke Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The Blackfish was Robb's right hand man. Robb has the Greatjon for protection and intimidation (he didn't take his direwolf evrywhere with him), but the Blackfish was his most trusted agent, his primary councilor in strategy, and not to mention his own blood. That he would never talk of Jon or possibly naming him his heir with his right hand and Uncle seems far fetched to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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