What does Blackfish have against Jon Snow?

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Isn't it easier to assume that the Blackfish had heard the rumors about Jon being a turncloak and killing Halfhand? :dunno:

[The Duke]

Isn't it easier to assume that the Blackfish had heard the rumors about Jon being a turncloak and killing Halfhand? :dunno:

I would say it's easier to assume that they haven't heard anything from the Wall with the only possible exception being Jon's paper shield. No one has a clue about the Others, we haven't even heard anyone doubting or brining it up. I doubt they get much news from the Wall other than an official report from the Lord Commander.

[Bayard]

I don't know what Blackfish is thinking but what I am sure is that he is not fooling Jaime..... at least that is how I read the chapter. He jokes around, tries to make Jaime angry, but that until he hears of Jon Snow. His face changes, or his eyes, something..... and for me it was clear that Jaime touched a button, a sensitive subject.... he is dead serious in what he says at that moment. My interpretation is that he indeed thought that Jon had been bought by the Lannisters..... and I think he wouldn't have cared about it, he wasn't his nephew.... he wasn't friend with Ned, so why did he care so much about it?? Well, because he and Greatjon were Robb's closest advisers, and I am 100% sure he knew how much Robb loved Jon. I have no idea if he knew about the will.... probably, if Robb was planning it for a long time, he told Blackfish.... but I guess it's possible he just thought about it when he talked to Cat. Anyway, it was a spur of the moment reaction..... we don't know what he thinks now (after he surely knows about the will).

I like a lot the idea that he is moving north, it's a nice story arc for the Blackfish to end up with Jon Snow. I think that would be enough for him, a satisfactory ending for his story.... he is not such a major character. Anyway, I just thought about it.... but couldn't someone from the NW give up his oath if he manages to convince someone else to join in his place??? A life for a life??? And Blackfish is a perfect replacement for Jon.... he was kind of destined to join them, and actually become lord commander. What do you think? :)

[Thoheeks Bili]

If Tywin supported Jon For the LC why would he be helping Stannis? His executuion of Lord Janos Slynt would also seem to be an indicator that he isn't in league with the Lannisters. Its possible that the Blackfish may have been in touch with Littlefinger and been fed some misinformation. On a practical level 2 long time Tully loyalists(Ryger and Grell) are headed to the wall probaly so they can find out what is really going on there. It could also be possile that Brynden said this to draw attention away from Jon, why would he want to tell Jamie what he really thinks about Jon?

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding........we have a winner(my thoughts anyways)

[The Duke]

I like a lot the idea that he is moving north, it's a nice story arc for the Blackfish to end up with Jon Snow. I think that would be enough for him, a satisfactory ending for his story.... he is not such a major character. Anyway, I just thought about it.... but couldn't someone from the NW give up his oath if he manages to convince someone else to join in his place??? A life for a life??? And Blackfish is a perfect replacement for Jon.... he was kind of destined to join them, and actually become lord commander. What do you think? :)

By the end of the series I think the LC has to be Jorah Mormont. At the moment, I think Jon will not be too happy with the watch after the whole "trying to kill me" thing. Through one way or another Jon will go south for some reason, and I think that the interim LC will be Tormund Giantsbane. I see the Blackfish as more a tool to move the plot forward by brining the southern information of the story to the northern information in Jon.

[Bayard]

By the end of the series I think the LC has to be Jorah Mormont. At the moment, I think Jon will not be too happy with the watch after the whole "trying to kill me" thing. Through one way or another Jon will go south for some reason, and I think that the interim LC will be Tormund Giantsbane. I see the Blackfish as more a tool to move the plot forward by brining the southern information of the story to the northern information in Jon.

Well, first not even Jon Snow is so foolish to put Tormund LC of the NW..... he may put him in command of the forces at the wall, yes, but the NW will have another commander. And I guess you are right about Jorah.... how about, in the end Blackfish LC, and Jorah Mormont first ranger? :)) groomed to become the 1001 LC? :)

[LuisDantas]

Regarding the OP:

At some level the Blackfish must wish that his niece hadn't gone through so much sorrow due to the presence of a bastard at Winterfell. It doesn't really mean that he even has a personal opinion about the man - I don't think they have ever met, in fact.

I picture the Blackfish as the sort of experienced man that would use just such a turn of phrase to try and find out how much the Lannisters like the recent change of Lord Commander at the Night's Watch. After making the wrong assumptions about Roose Bolton and Walder Frey, he is entitled to a little suspicion.

Perhaps more to the point, he is not about to just follow Jaime Lannister's suggestions without a clear and good reason. Particularly when it means honor-binding himself away from the fight for the Riverlands and the resistance and revenge against the Lannisters.

That said, it _is_ true that most people dislike bastards simply because they are bastards, and as such a reminder of how fragile their social conventions are.

[livewyre]

I think the Blackfish is just trying to rile up Jaime and doesn't have any ill feelings toward Jon. It's all too convenient that Hoster Tully's two most loyal fighters join the NW after the Blackfish makes his escape.

Maybe Blackfish sees Stannis being at the wall, and decides that is the best place to continue fighting this war.

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

It's possible he was just pissed at Jaime and wanted a reason to reject whatever terms he presented.

He also only knows about Jon through Catelyn and she obviously had a very negative opinion of him.

[Ser Lepus]

Isn't it easier to assume that the Blackfish had heard the rumors about Jon being a turncloak and killing Halfhand? :dunno:

I would say it's easier to assume that they haven't heard anything from the Wall with the only possible exception being Jon's paper shield. No one has a clue about the Others, we haven't even heard anyone doubting or brining it up. I doubt they get much news from the Wall other than an official report from the Lord Commander.

I doubt the Blackfish knows anything about the Wall. The Wall is thousands of miles north, in an almost deserted near-artic zone, and the Blackfish is in the middle of a war zone surrounded by enemies, I doubt anybody has travelled from the Wall to Riverrun to tell tales, and I don't think he knows about the "paper shield" letter, either; that was sent to the Iron Throne, and I don't think many people has heard about that, at least not outside the court.

I think the Blackfish has been influenced by Catelyn. She probably told him that Robb was making a great mistake when he legitimezed Jon and named him his heir in his will because Jon would betray him...etc., and she gave the Blackfish a horrible impression of Jon's character.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I love Blackfish but this might have been the only time I ever "wtf"'d at something he said or did. I don't think it was because of Stannis - iirc most of Robbs crew was actually pulling for Stannis to win Blackwater/were disappointed when he didn't. I just think he got an unfair picture of Jon painted to him via Catelyn.

[Harlaw's Book]

I don't think what the Blackfish said to Jaime is his true opinion on Jon. I'm with those who say the Blackfish says what he says so to prevent Jaime from suspecting the Blackfish will join forces with Jon in the future.

I doubt Cat and Blackfish ever talked about Jon. Cat's way of dealing with Jon was to pretend he didn't exist. If they were in contact prior to AGOT, it doesn't sound in character for Cat to send ravens to Blackfish complaining about Jon. We never read about Cat and the Blackfish discussing Jon. And I don't see how Jon could've figured into any conversation they would've had offpage. Even if Cat and the Blackfish had a conversation about Theon's trustworthiness, I can't see Cat working Jon into the conversation.

I think it's more likely that the Blackfish would've had a conversation about Jon with Robb. Robb would've given the Blackfish a much more positive image of Jon.

[icantstandgreyjoys]

Well, maybe he is judgemental, or maybe he really was thinking of going to Wall to talk to Jon about Robb, but what would he say to Jaime, "Oh thanks for the suggestion bud, I think I'll just do that. Robb really trusted Jon by the way you know, he considered to name him as his heir." ?

[mcb]

I don't believe the Blackfish had anything at all against Jon Snow. But he opposed every thought and notion from the Kingslayer. Jaime mentioned Jon Snow - Jon Snow is therefore untrustworthy. Had Jaime said "and the winter has already came", Brynden's reply would have been: "Has it? And how much Lannister gold did it require to arrange?"

[Field of Asphodel]

It's possible he thinks that Tywin bribed Jon with the Lord Commander position in exchange for ... who knows — staying at the Wall and not assisting Robb? I get the impression that the Blackfish also just has an inherent distrust of Jon in the same way that Catelyn did.

This was my original interpretation, and still the one I find most likely. Catelyn was the Blackfish's favorite and Jon represents the rift between his niece and her husband. Also, it's common for people to distrust bastards. Brynden may distrust Jon unjustifiably the same way Kevan distrusted Tyrion (mostly) unjustifiably.

Or he might've been lying to Jaime. Perhaps during his campaigns with Robb, Robb spoke of Jon and the Blackfish developed a more rounded impression of Jon Snow. Perhaps he has some plan involving him seeking Jon out at the Wall. This interpretation borders on wishful thinking.

[Helgar]

This is one of those times where ASOIAF is too different from traditional fiction and it confuses us! Although in other works, likeable main characters may dislike each other, supporting characters tend to have a positive opinion of these main chars, because, well, they don't get as much development as main chars do. In Martinland, however, supporting characters can be as complex and realistic as main characters, and they may not automatically think well of a "good" person, just because the reader does!

In-character the Blackfish has no reason to like Jon Snow. During their time together at Riverrun, Catelyn likely spoke to Brynden about life at Winterfell. Even though we, as readers, know Jon is a pretty nice person, Catelyn doesn't; she never trusted him, and she always feared he was a threat to her children. She probably shared those fears with the Blackfish, and when the Blackfish hears mention of Jon Snow by Jaime, he assumes that it is confirmation that the boy could not be trusted, just like Theon Greyjoy couldn't.

There is no reason for all the good guys to like each other, that just makes for a very dull and unrealistic story! This way they feel like real people, and I like it more this way. We have more than enough fantasy fiction about universally loved protagonists who are only hated by the bad guys, imo.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Blackfish has in all probability never met Jon Snow. The only way he could have is if he made an official visit to Winterfell, and if he did so Ned would have had to keep Jon out of sight during that for the same reasons Jon had to sit at the far end of the hall when the royal family came to visit. In most cases its "bad manners" to invite bastards to fine company like that, doubly so in this case since Catelyn is the favorite niece of the heirless Blackfish and thus the apple of his eye in that way a daughter would have been if he had one.

So the only info Blackfish has on Jon is Catelyn's opinion of him, Robb's opinion of him, and whatever second or third hand info might have trickled down about the Night's Watch naming Jon the new LC. Catelyn's opinion is probably going to carry the most weight, since Blackfish has known and loved her much longer and, unfortunately, Robb's reputation as a judge of character is currently in the shitter as he has been proven, ah, dead wrong about Theon Greyjoy, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey, so Blackfish probably figures, or at least figured at one point, Jon sucks too, especially since Catelyn was so down on him.

Then again, if Blackfish didn't still respect Robb's judgment, why is he still fighting an apparently unwinnable battle on his deceased and purportedly heirless behalf? And more to the point why would he be honest with Jaime? Blackfish wasn't there to negotiate with Jaime in good faith, and he'd probably already hatched his escape plan. He's just there because he wants to troll Jaime... and perhaps even stall for time/create a distraction (for the Westerling switch, perhaps, if you buy that theory, but there's other possible reasons too)

I strongly suspect that Blackfish at the end of AFFC is much like Lady Dustin in the middle of ADWD; we need to take their words with a very large grain of salt and pay close attention to who their audience is and what they think/know about them. They may have some nugget of legitimate beef (Blackfish with Jon and Lady Dustin with Ned) or may be tapping into how they felt at one time, but they are greatly exaggerating their current level of animus for the person being discussed. Honestly, I'm slightly embarrassed it took me as long as it did to question the veracity of Blackfish's statement on Jon to Jaime, chalk it up as another thing I took at face value before i joined the forum.

EDIT: and to dovetail on Helgar's idea somewhat about the good guys not all getting along... The Blackfish doesn't have to like Jon in order to respect Jon and be willing to work with him for Robb's sake.

[Erudain]

I think he is only speaking Cat's opinion on Jon...of course a very biased one "wish you were the one to fall".....yup....thats what I call a totally a lovely step-mother.....also is the reason why I want all Jon's haters (in the books.....not all the Jon haters in these forums) to stay alive when R+L=J is revealed.....I can totally picture Cat's "wtf" face when she has to swallow all she has done/said about Jon and Ned.

Edit: lol that sounded pretty bad by "all the Jon haters in these forums" I meant that I have nothing against you....not that I hope you are not alive when R+L=J is revealed :cheers:

[Field of Asphodel]

I think he is only speaking Cat's opinion on Jon...of course a very biased one "wish you were the one to fall".....yup....thats what I call a totally a lovely step-mother.....also is the reason why I want all Jon's haters (in the books.....not all the Jon haters in these forums) to stay alive when R+L=J is revealed.....I can totally picture Cat's "wtf" face when she has to swallow all she has done/said about Jon and Ned.

I'll ignore the first part about Catelyn's outburst, I feel like I've talked about that a million times.

I'm a huge Cat fan but in no way would Jon discovering his true parentage excuse Cat's behavior, and from Cat's POV, she'll still have no reason to apologize for mistrusting Jon when she and he thought he was a bastard without a claim or prospects. She and Jon will never be chummy regardless of what truths are revealed, that boat has sailed. The only way the truth about R+J will affect Cat is by her finally knowing that Ned never fathered a bastard and probably never cheated on her.

[Melonica Stormborn]

I didn't really put anything into it and thought that it was Catelyn's view of Jon that was echoed by the Blackfish and he was just countering anything Jaime said. The other's arguments are also interesting to note, they do add some flavor to the Jaime/Blackfish interaction. Would be nice if he goes to the Wall, but with the current state of the NW, I imagine it'll ruin whatever he's planning.