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What does Blackfish have against Jon Snow?


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What I don't understand is why Robb would consider Jon heir at all. He knows Jon is a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, that he took an oath to hold no lands or titles. Only death can release him of these vows right? Maybe Robb named someone else heir.

He's banking on the Night's Watch releasing Jon from his oath in exchange for more men for the Night's Watch. Robb understands that the Night's Watch needs as much men as it can get and is unlikely to refuse his offer. It would be worse if he chose some cousin that the North men don't know and do not share anything in common.

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He's banking on the Night's Watch releasing Jon from his oath in exchange for more men for the Night's Watch. Robb understands that the Night's Watch needs as much men as it can get and is unlikely to refuse his offer. It would be worse if he chose some cousin that the North men don't know and do not share anything in common.

But the NW can't release sworn brothers, ever, for any reason, no matter how much the Lord Commander may want to. It's just not done. This is one of its main principles, which allows criminals and nobles who have lost wars to be send there without fear they'll be back causing trouble one day,

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He's banking on the Night's Watch releasing Jon from his oath in exchange for more men for the Night's Watch. Robb understands that the Night's Watch needs as much men as it can get and is unlikely to refuse his offer. It would be worse if he chose some cousin that the North men don't know and do not share anything in common.

Where does it say this?

But the NW can't release sworn brothers, ever, for any reason, no matter how much the Lord Commander may want to. It's just not done. This is one of its main principles, which allows criminals and nobles who have lost wars to be send there without fear they'll be back causing trouble one day,

I agree with this, which is why Robbs wish to name Jon his heir is so strange. It's the same with Tywin wanting Jaime as his heir as someone mentioned above. Jaime is a member of the Kingsguard, he can't inherit Casterly Rock.

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So to recap:

a - Brynden Tully heard all sorts of negative things about Jon from Catelyn. He may have heard something positive from Robb but if so discounts it given Robb's misreads on Bolton, Theon and Frey. He assumes that Jon's rapid rise in the NW is due to Lannister influence, and that Jon is in bed with the Lannisters.

- or -

b - Brynden Tully heard what a great guy Jon is from Robb and is faking hostility.

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Where does it say this?

When Robb spoke about his desire to name Jon heir to Cat at Oldstones he threw out a thought about buying Jon out of the Watch by sending 100 men in his place. However the viability of the idea wasn't discussed, nor is it known whether Robb tried to develop the idea into a plan. I think it would be a non-workable plan; Robb didn't have 100 men loyal to him to send and if 100 POW's were sent to buy Jon out it would openly break the neutrality of the Watch and give justification for the Lannisters insist they got sent back. However, as I don't think Robb named Jon I think it's a moot point.

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I am really find it hilarious people are trying to use Catelyn as an excuse as to why Blackfish doesn't like him. Brynden is her freakin uncle. Do you honestly expect him not to have his own preconceived notions about bastards considering his age and his experiences? So one 'cool' character doesn't like another character you think its 'cool'. Big deal, this happens all the time in real life.

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Catelyn didn't have to say anything about Jon to her family. It's made clear in the story that bringing bastards into the home wasn't done, and it's totally unsurprising to me that the Tullys as a whole are a bit cheesed about it. The Blackfish being sort of a protective patriarchal figure to Catelyn would've been outraged by any outward show of disrespect against his niece, which is what Jon's presence at Winterfell was. A low threshold for distrusting Jon isn't exactly surprising, and after Catelyn proved to be right about Theon and Jaime's new information about his sudden rise in station at the Wall, the Blackfish had all the probable cause he needed to distrust Jon.

Sucks, but it's true.

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When Robb spoke about his desire to name Jon heir to Cat at Oldstones he threw out a thought about buying Jon out of the Watch by sending 100 men in his place. However the viability of the idea wasn't discussed, nor is it known whether Robb tried to develop the idea into a plan. I think it would be a non-workable plan; Robb didn't have 100 men loyal to him to send and if 100 POW's were sent to buy Jon out it would openly break the neutrality of the Watch and give justification for the Lannisters insist they got sent back. However, as I don't think Robb named Jon I think it's a moot point.

Thanks :)

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Where does it say this?

During Cat's and Robb's conversation in A Storm of Swords. Here goes:

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

"Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them.
If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

ETA: Somebody else answered first. Thanks :)

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But the NW can't release sworn brothers, ever, for any reason, no matter how much the Lord Commander may want to. It's just not done. This is one of its main principles, which allows criminals and nobles who have lost wars to be send there without fear they'll be back causing trouble one day,

Didn't Maester Aemon say that the NW would've released him to be king?

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I am really find it hilarious people are trying to use Catelyn as an excuse as to why Blackfish doesn't like him. Brynden is her freakin uncle. Do you honestly expect him not to have his own preconceived notions about bastards considering his age and his experiences? So one 'cool' character doesn't like another character you think its 'cool'. Big deal, this happens all the time in real life.

If my niece, who I respected, loved and shared a close relationship with, told me she didn't trust someone - and we know Catelyn communicated this to the Blackfish - that's what I'd believe. I suppose Brynden might be prejudiced against bastards, but it isn't as if he disrespects Mya Stone or anything. He's probably never met Jon - why is it unlikely that the closest person he has in life he has to a daughter told him negative things helped shape his opinion?

Catelyn didn't have to say anything about Jon to her family. It's made clear in the story that bringing bastards into the home wasn't done,

It's rude, but it isn't unheard of.

Red Ronnet Connington, Walder Frey and Humprhey Hewett, all have their acknowledged natural children in their homes, and those are just the ones we know about. It's definitely a slight to your wife though: Jerks like RC and Frey could presumably care less about their wives' feelings, and Hewett lets his wife use his daughter as a servant girl.

Not to threadjack but ASOIAF related reading made me realize an historical truth about the bastards of European nobility: for practical reasons they were often closer to their parents than children born from wedlock. To the legitimate heir, their father is on some level the guy between you and a title. An illegitimate child has no claim to a title of any kind, and is dependent on a living parent with whom they share a good relationship for any temporal power.

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It's possible he thinks that Tywin bribed Jon with the Lord Commander position in exchange for ... who knows — staying at the Wall and not assisting Robb? I get the impression that the Blackfish also just has an inherent distrust of Jon in the same way that Catelyn did.

agree. Most of what he heard about Jon probable came directly from Catelyn, and we know that she hated him.

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I tend to think it was Blackfish putting on a show for Jaime's amusement. Admittedly, not much evidence to say that, but I'd think Blackfish would be aware of Robb's will which most likely names Jon the heir, and I doubt Cat was doing that much badmouthing of him. Even if she was, I'm sure Robb would be there to balance it out with praise.

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Many members of this forum seem to be obsessed that laws of succession and vows are unbreakable even when one of the themes of the books is that a powerful enough person can accomplish almost anything. Barristan was released from his vows and if Jaime had wanted to he would have been released from his.

Same for kings, maybe the Targs are the rightful rulers, maybe the Baratheons. It doesn't matter, what the people believe (or are forced to believe)matters.

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Many members of this forum seem to be obsessed that laws of succession and vows are unbreakable even when one of the themes of the books is that a powerful enough person can accomplish almost anything. Barristan was released from his vows and if Jaime had wanted to he would have been released from his.

Same for kings, maybe the Targs are the rightful rulers, maybe the Baratheons. It doesn't matter, what the people believe (or are forced to believe)matters.

The Kingsguard isn't the Night's Watch, KG answers directly to the king.

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If my niece, who I respected, loved and shared a close relationship with, told me she didn't trust someone - and we know Catelyn communicated this to the Blackfish - that's what I'd believe. I suppose Brynden might be prejudiced against bastards, but it isn't as if he disrespects Mya Stone or anything. He's probably never met Jon - why is it unlikely that the closest person he has in life he has to a daughter told him negative things helped shape his opinion?

Because the interpretation makes Blackfish appear more susceptible than he is in the books. This is the guy who has had problems with his brothers right until his death in the books. To simply assume the only reason that he doesn't like Jon is because that mean old Catelyn poisoned him against him does not take into account what his pre-existing views on Bastards are. Furthermore, his comment to Jamie shows he has some independent thinking on the matter and doesn't hate poor Won Won because of Catelyn's opinions. 'Blackfish doesn't like Jon because of Catelyn' is a narrow assessment because we don't know his feelings about bastards in general combined what he thought prior to his conversation with Jamie.

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If my niece, who I respected, loved and shared a close relationship with, told me she didn't trust someone - and we know Catelyn communicated this to the Blackfish - that's what I'd believe.

We don't actually know this, though. We've never witnessed any such conversation between Catelyn and the Blackfish regarding Jon. The Blackfish was Knight of the Gate in the Vale for practically all of Jon's life, and while it's possible that Catelyn wrote to him in the past complaining about Jon, that's far from confirmed. By the time Catelyn and the Blackfish were physically reunited, they had way too many other pressing concerns---Hoster's imminent death, the whole situation with Lysa, Ned/Sansa/Arya, Robb getting declared King in the North, etc., etc.---to logically have sat down and bitched together about Jon, someone who wasn't present and wasn't intended to ever be present (due to his joining the Watch) in the future. By the time Robb started thinking about Jon as a potential heir, Catelyn and the Blackfish were being separated---one to the Twins, the other remaining in Riverrun. It would be perfectly plausible for Catelyn and the Blackfish to have never once spoken about Jon.

And I really don't think Catelyn would have needed to expressly convey her antipathy about Jon to the Blackfish in order for the Blackfish to come to the conclusion that she disliked Jon. Jon's her husband's bastard, and if anything, it would have been far more bizarre in Westerosi culture for Catelyn to like him than for her to dislike him. But while the Blackfish loves his niece, he seems like a pretty savvy guy, and he'd have to recognize that just because Catelyn probably disliked her husband's bastard, as most women in her position would have done, that doesn't necessarily reflect on Jon's actual personality; Catelyn wasn't exactly the most neutral source when it came to Jon, so just because she didn't embrace him as her own child, that doesn't mean he was another Theon.

It seems like Ned's bastard isn't exactly a secret, even in the south, so the Blackfish could easily know about Jon via that reputation source---the fact that Ned apparently approved of Jon, given Ned's reputation (and the ease with which Ned could have just sent Jon away to be fostered) could speak very highly of him, in the Blackfish's eyes. And if the Blackfish discussed Jon with Robb---and it makes sense that Robb would have discussed the succession with someone as close to him as the Blackfish---he wouldn't be getting his information solely from Catelyn, who was pretty obviously always going to be a (negatively) biased source, no matter how much the Blackfish loved her.

It's rude, but it isn't unheard of.

Red Ronnet Connington, Walder Frey and Humprhey Hewett, all have their acknowledged natural children in their homes, and those are just the ones we know about. It's definitely a slight to your wife though: Jerks like RC and Frey could presumably care less about their wives' feelings, and Hewett lets his wife use his daughter as a servant girl.

Red Ronnet Connington isn't married, though, so bringing his bastard son to Griffin's Roost couldn't offend his nonexistent wife, nor pose a threat to his nonexistent trueborn children. Humphrey Hewett's bastard daughter, Falia Flowers, wasn't raised like a member of the Hewett family---she was treated as a servant, so her position in Oakenshield wasn't analogous to Jon's in Winterfell. And Walder Frey has such a freakishly large number of trueborn children that adding some bastards into the mix wasn't radically altering the political atmosphere of the Twins (and his many wives keep dying off---it's hard to offend them with some bastards' presences if they die after only a few years, and before they died they'd have had to deal with previous Lady Freys' trueborn children posing threats to their own trueborn children, so Walder Frey's bastards couldn't really pose the same "issues" in the Twins that Jon posed in Winterfell).

Jon was raised right alongside the trueborn Starks and was shown a huge amount of favor by Ned. Bastards don't usually get treated like "equal" members of the family, they're kept out of the family castle while trueborn heirs live (Ramsay Snow) or fostered out to bannermen (Laurence Snow). The only bastards I think we've been told were treated like trueborn children were the Great Bastards of Aegon the Unworthy, and Aegon got that nickname for a reason (and one (two, counting Bittersteel) of them did in fact end up posing a political risk to his trueborn brother). The Blackfish presumably knows the same history that Catelyn did (she expressly brought up the Blackfyre pretenders to Robb), so it wouldn't be at all odd for him to intuitively understand why Catelyn disliked Jon---paranoia, fear of what he could do, not what he necessarily would do.

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