Let's Talk About The Lannisters

[The Storm Queen]

I like how Tyrion grows up in a misogynistic world, is surrounded by misogyny and lives in a culture where its acceptable, and we single him out for being a misogynist. Really, I feel like Tyrion's attitude towards women comes more from his dwarfism and a sort of self-loathing/narcissism back and forth psyche than it does from actually hating women.

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You are right that it is a mysogynistic world, yet at the same time there are enough men who treat women just fine: Ned, Robb, Jon, Davos, the Tyrell men, Balon Greyjoy, the Dornish as a whole etc,

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

1. Shae doesn't have the money to go around hiring fancy singers, since Tyrion never pays her.

what makes you think he never pays her?

2. It's pretty clear she's not an idiot, considering how she picks up on things and her convos with Tyrion.

I didn't say she was an idiot. I said she has a big mouth and doesn't realize how much danger she could be in. I think that's pretty obvious. She suggests Tyrion kill Cersei (not a bad idea in and of itself) but she says she's not afraid of Cersei and thinks Tyrion could kill her openly with repercussion.

3. Tyrion is the Master of Coin. He can get a singer into a wedding if he really wants.

Tyrion is master of nothing. Cersei is intimately involved in arranging the wedding. The only way for him to get Symon to sing at the wedding would be to harm one of the other singer and then Varys put put him forward as a replacement. Anything else would raise too many questions. And again, that doesn't eliminate the problem. There's nothing to stop Symon from asking for something else as soon as the wedding is over.

4. Go reread Tyrion's POV when he talks to Symon. Hell when they first meet Tyrion insults him with provacation.

Yes. Because Tyrion went through a lot of effort to keep Shae's identity a secret. To that end he visit her alone. What's to stop Symon from hiring some sell swords and smuggling Tyrion out of the city in a sack to be sold to the Starks? That's why Tyrion to scare him. He should have just killed him then. But because Shea liked his singing Tyrion stays his hand.

(And regarding if they're friends or not, Shae asks Tyrion immedietly afterwords not to harm Symon because he makes her feel happy when he's not there.)

Yeah by singing.

Really. You think someone deserves to be strangled to death because they lied well under duress/threats? That's kind of disturbing.

If you're the mistress if a mafioso and the police bring you in for questioning and you testify against said mafioso, do you expect there to be violent retribution should said mafioso ever catch up with you? Was that not the life you chose? Were you not told of the fate which had befallen Tysha?

No, no one deserves to die. Everyone should live forever in a summer that never ends with a castle in the clouds so they can look down over all the world.

“Aye, men are dying. More will die before we see Winterfell. What of

it? This is war. Men die in war. That is as it should be. As it has always been.”

Ser Corliss Penny gave the clan chief an incredulous look. “Do you want to die, Wull?”

That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts

a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to

be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night.

What men want does not matter.

“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for

the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their

cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last

winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when

my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on

my tongue.”

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Thank you :blushing:

I am afraid that I am generally quite unable to grasp the life nobility led in that world, especially sons who were not heirs, so maybe Tyrion simply studied when other boys were training at arms.

This was probably the golden blackmailing deal Tywin, even more than other fathers of high nobility, had with his sons (daughters weren't free to decide anyway): behave and you have infinite access to family wealth, you can drink and whore and spend a fortune on horses and armour. Seek independence and shame the House and you get severely punished, the golden cage. And Tyrion was not independent emotionally, he wanted Daddy's approval and he needed some money for virtually every human contact.

Whereas Jaime was, in a way, able to free himself of his father's blackmailing by entering the kingsguard, although he did not realize back then that he was a pawn of both the king and Cersei.

That's a little simplistic. Some daughters are free to chose. All of the sands snakes are free to do as they want. Brienne certainly is as well. So is Asha. Genna Lannister does as she pleases. As do the Mormont women. Brendan Tully has to leave the Riverlands in order to escape the authority of his brother, while Mage Mormont was free to never marry. And of course Tyrion was Tywin's heir, which bought him little freedom.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

##

You are right that it is a mysogynistic world, yet at the same time there are enough men who treat women just fine: Ned, Robb, Jon, Davos, the Tyrell men, Balon Greyjoy, the Dornish as a whole etc,

Ned isn't a good example of anything. And he betrothed his daughter to inbred psychopath. Robb in Nedd both let their treatment of women they have little relation to get many people they care deeply for, killed. We really don't know any anything about Davos' treatment of women. Getting 4 sons killed and leaving her alone in the midst of a war doesn't seem that kind. Especially after he doesn't burn on te blackwater. He could have at least gone home before heading back to Stannis. We don't know anything about the Tyrell men and their treatment of Women, except Ser Garlan. And the Tyrell household is run by Lady Olena. Balon Greyjoy? He wants Asha to inherent and his wife leaves him. But I'm not quite sure that amounts to kindness. He doesn't seem to object to the Iron Born taking salt waves or begrudge Euron making his

, music video.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I like how Tyrion grows up in a misogynistic world, is surrounded by misogyny and lives in a culture where its acceptable, and we single him out for being a misogynist. Really, I feel like Tyrion's attitude towards women comes more from his dwarfism and a sort of self-loathing/narcissism back and forth psyche than it does from actually hating women.

I think Tyrion treats women well by Westorossi standards. With the caveat that Tywin had Tyrion's first wife sent to entertain his guards and Tyrion told that she was hired. Causing Tyrion to think no woman could ever love him, so he doesn't try to have non-contractual relationships with them,

[Faint]

. . .

Would it kill you to use 'MultiQuote'?

Really, it's more efficient and it conserves space.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Would it kill you to use 'MultiQuote'?

Really, it's more efficient and it conserves space.

what do you call?

[Dark Rider]

Ned isn't a good example of anything. And he betrothed his daughter to inbred psychopath. Robb in Nedd both let their treatment of women they have little relation to get many people they care deeply for, killed. We really don't know any anything about Davos' treatment of women. Getting 4 sons killed and leaving her alone in the midst of a war doesn't seem that kind. Especially after he doesn't burn on te blackwater. He could have at least gone home before heading back to Stannis. We don't know anything about the Tyrell men and their treatment of Women, except Ser Garlan. And the Tyrell household is run by Lady Olena. Balon Greyjoy? He wants Asha to inherent and his wife leaves him. But I'm not quite sure that amounts to kindness. He doesn't seem to object to the Iron Born taking salt waves or begrudge Euron making his

, music video.

Woooh, you can't hold Davos's inability to run home to comfort his wife in the middle of a war against him. Yes, his sons have died on the Blackwater, but his duty has not ended and Stannis isn't going to grant him leave to run home to grieve. Besides even if Davos could go home to grieve for his dead sons with his wife Stannis his Lord and King is in great peril and the fate of Davos's entire family, wife included, are tied to Stannis's success. I think it is very clear that Davos would rather be at home with his family, but his family isn't high born and is greatly dependent on his connection to Stannis to live a life better than the life Davos lived as a child in flea bottom.

[Silverin]

I think Tyrion treats women well by Westorossi standards. With the caveat that Tywin had Tyrion's first wife sent to entertain his guards and Tyrion told that she was hired. Causing Tyrion to think no woman could ever love him, so he doesn't try to have non-contractual relationships with them,

Tywin was a great father to Tyrion by Westerossi standards as well. After all most men wouldn't even let him live. Yet I don't see post that try to make his behaviour towards tyrion seen as ok, just because in that society treating dwarfs like that is accepted.

Westeros is s shitty world, dwars or women are treted horribly. But just like we can call those who treat tyrion badly because he is a dwarf (despite the fact in that society it is normal) out on their wrong doings, we can do the same with tyrion when he does that against women.

tyrion is only as nice to women in westeros, as good father tywin is to a dwarf in there.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Woooh, you can't hold Davos's inability to run home to comfort his wife in the middle of a war against him. Yes, his sons have died on the Blackwater, but his duty has not ended and Stannis isn't going to grant him leave to run home to grieve. Besides even if Davos could go home to grieve for his dead sons with his wife Stannis his Lord and King is in great peril and the fate of Davos's entire family, wife included, are tied to Stannis's success. I think it is very clear that Davos would rather be at home with his family, but his family isn't high born and is greatly dependent on his connection to Stannis to live a life better than the life Davos lived as a child in flea bottom.

Oh I don't care about him comforting her. What are all of Stannis' knights and lord obsessed with when they get North? Marrying into norther nobility or otherwise finding a method to procure lands and titles. Davos' wife and two sons are in the south, in small keep. On lands known to belong to Davos who either died fighting for Stannis or is his hand of the king, depending on what time you're referring to. Under what scenario do they not need to be evacuated to Braavos or somewhere?

[Woman of War]

I think some posts in this thread have established that Tyrion is, because of that father and family background in combination with his physical handicaps ( short summary, as it had just been discussed) a rather damaged person concerning his interactions with other people, as is, for different reasons, Cersei and, to a lesser extent, Jaime.

Tyrion has learned all his life that closer relationships had to be bought, that most people, even close family members, met him with disgust because of the superstitions that come with that quasi medieval timesetting. Apart from Jaime few people, maybe his uncles, have been nice to him and you can be sure that he was bullied by other kids as soon as he was not protected by his status as a lord's son. So what will happen to a child, think of RL, that is constantly bullied and disrespected by his or her environment?

I also wonder how a small child is influenced if even the first person he interacts with, his wetnurse, is paid to hide her disdain and the sister shows outright hatred. It must be rather challenging to learn normal emotional relationships under those circumstances.

What we get presented in these books is not a childhood development but the result, what came from an upbringing that went disastrously wrong: an emotionally deeply insecure person where the emotional development does in no way go along with the intellectual abilities.Tyrion would be an equally, say complicated, person if he were born a girl, he might be even more sarcastic and bitter because he would have far less outlet for his frustration and were even more limited to live the life he wants.

His behaviour, that may be perceived as misogyny, is the symptom of a certain inabitlity to evaluate others peoples' and especially womens' reaction towards him. By assuming the worst and the following aggressive and cynical reactions Tyrion tries to protect himself from disappointment, while he again and again wants to believe in being proven wrong, misinterpreting every single hint. Curiously this goes along with a high ability to emphatic reactions and to analysis of interactions as long as Tyrion himself is not part of them.

Apart from that I am not willing to interpret sexual attraction a man has towards a woman as misogyny. The other way round would not misandry either. If there follows disrespectful or agressive behaviour, then this would be true. But flirting and showing interest is not offensive in itself. And Septa Lemore obviously was a self confident woman who liked her body the way it was, with signs of life and attractive. She bathed naked and everybody was free to enjoy, which Tyrion did as we know from his POV. Thoughts are free and he never offended the lady, on the contrary, he was quite prude and did not want to be seen naked by her. And we do not know if not all the other men on the ship didn't react the same way, not indifferent but polite. Being sexually attracted is not offensive or misogynist in itself, even if you don't know the object of your fancies and maybe will never be seriously interested. We all, men as well as women, (hopefully) have our fantasies and there is nothing wrong with it even if we are seriously happy that the object of those fantasies wiil never know about their content.

[Dark Rider]

Oh I don't care about him comforting her. What are all of Stannis' knights and lord obsessed with when they get North? Marrying into norther nobility or otherwise finding a method to procure lands and titles. Davos' wife and two sons are in the south, in small keep. On lands known to belong to Davos who either died fighting for Stannis or is his hand of the king, depending on what time you're referring to. Under what scenario do they not need to be evacuated to Braavos or somewhere?

They are likely protected from criminals and so forth with their own small guard. As you point out they likely stay at some small keep of no strategic significance whatsoever and highly unlikely to be taken when all the fighting is in the northern part of the realm. In fact, his counsel to put Stannis up north insures that the conflict will be fought far, far from his family's home.

In Braavos who knows who would betray them or take them as slaves or whatever? Home is the safest place for them to be in this unsafe world.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Tywin was a great father to Tyrion by Westerossi standards as well. After all most men wouldn't even let him live. Yet I don't see post that try to make his behaviour towards tyrion seen as ok, just because in that society treating dwarfs like that is accepted.

Westeros is s shitty world, dwars or women are treted horribly. But just like we can call those who treat tyrion badly because he is a dwarf (despite the fact in that society it is normal) out on their wrong doings, we can do the same with tyrion when he does that against women.

tyrion is only as nice to women in westeros, as good father tywin is to a dwarf in there.

Oh but I have made just such a post.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

They are likely protected from criminals and so forth with their own small guard. As you point out they likely stay at some small keep of no strategic significance whatsoever and highly unlikely to be taken when all the fighting is in the northern part of the realm. In fact, his counsel to put Stannis up north insures that the conflict will be fought far, far from his family's home.

In Bravos who knows who would betray them or take them as slaves or whatever? Home is the safest place for them to be in this unsafe world.

No no no. Its not the conflict that'as the problem. The lands will be seized and given to some Tyrell banner men. Just as Brightwater Keep was taken from the Florents.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I think some posts in this thread have established that Tyrion is, because of that father and family background in combination with his physical handicaps ( short summary, as it had just been discussed) a rather damaged person concerning his interactions with other people, as is, for different reasons, Cersei and, to a lesser extent, Jaime.

Tyrion has learned all his life that closer relationships had to be bought

I know lots of people who feel that way today. They're called econ majors, all human behavior is based upon response to incentive.

[Woman of War]

Tyrion has learned all his life that closer relationships had to be bought, that most people, even close family members, met him with disgust because of the superstitions that come with that quasi medieval timesetting.

I know lots of people who feel that way today. They're called econ majors, all human behavior is based upon response to incentive.

What do you want to say, sorry, I may be a bit thick tonight.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

They are likely protected from criminals and so forth with their own small guard. As you point out they likely stay at some small keep of no strategic significance whatsoever and highly unlikely to be taken when all the fighting is in the northern part of the realm. In fact, his counsel to put Stannis up north insures that the conflict will be fought far, far from his family's home.

In Braavos who knows who would betray them or take them as slaves or whatever? Home is the safest place for them to be in this unsafe world.

There's a better chance of them being taken as salves in Westeros than Braavos. The Braavosi don't play when it comes to slavery.

[Ser Lepus]

Oh I don't care about him comforting her. What are all of Stannis' knights and lord obsessed with when they get North? Marrying into norther nobility or otherwise finding a method to procure lands and titles. Davos' wife and two sons are in the south, in small keep. On lands known to belong to Davos who either died fighting for Stannis or is his hand of the king, depending on what time you're referring to. Under what scenario do they not need to be evacuated to Braavos or somewhere?

Stannis´ bannermen are stupid. If Stannis wins, they will receive nice fiefdoms in the south, and if they lose, they are dead. Even if the war still takes several years, those castles in the Wall and the lands in the Gift are worth nothing until the next spring, when they will be able to bring peasants and sow the land.

The winter is expected to be about ten years long or more, what´s worth a chunk of land you can´t use for anything for the next ten years? A fiefdom in the Gift would only be of value if they expect to spend the rest of their lives there, and that´s impossible; if Stannis doesn´t win, whoever take control of the North will exterminate them.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

What do you want to say, sorry, I may be a bit thick tonight.

Tyrion's point of view is one that many people hold to this day. The field of economics is based on that idea. I basically feel that way. We just think most people don't want to except the way human nature inherently works. There are no selfless acts anymore than there are "true knights".

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Stannis´ bannermen are stupid. If Stannis wins, they will receive nice fiefdoms in the south, and if they lose, they are dead. Even if the war still takes several years, those castles in the Wall and the lands in the Gift are worth nothing until the next spring, when they will be able to bring peasants and sow the land.

The winter is expected to be about ten years long or more, what´s worth a chunk of land you can´t use for anything for the next ten years? A fiefdom in the Gift would only be of value if they expect to spend the rest of their lives there, and that´s impossible; if Stannis doesn´t win, whoever take control of the North will exterminate them.

Well that's not exactly true. Wyman Manderly fought for Robb Stark and didn't get exterminated, ect, ect. In all likely hood they'll be dead even if Stannis does manage win the throne. There's no reason for them not to try to win new lands in the North. And its not just the gift. Justin Massey wants to marry Asha. Some of them wanted to marry Alys Karstark. ect. ect. If Stannis does win they can just give the land to someone else as a reward. As far as they know there aren't any dragons any more. There's a very good chance the North will end up being it own country. Without the tully-stark alliance there's no reason a northern army need to go south of the neck. Lastly, unlike Bronn, these guys are already knight and lords. Their entire conception of themselves is based on being land holders. Without any holdings they're just hedge knights, which is a morale issues more than anything else. Contrast that to Gregor Clegane's men who when offered land refuse it.