What were the best/worst 'Dues Ex Machina' moments in ASoIaF?

[a free shadow]

Not a DEM - it's largely the backstory behind that part of the plot. The buried object was a weapon designed to bring down that enemy, and was (probably) for recovery later on when that enemy reappeared.

It is not like in DEM moments elsewhere butterflies bite manticores to death. It is about a designed object surfacing randomly and solving big problem/mystery. I agree some of the backstory will be explained, but at that moment it wasn't.

That is a plot twist. She actually ends up kidnapped by the BwB first, and then by the Hound, trying to ransom her back to her family. After the fight at the Inn, she rides away by herself. Where would she have gone? The Wall doesn't accept women. And it was HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY. It made more sense to go to the Saltpans and catch a ride out of Westeros.

Instead of going to find the only person she loves and her uncle she just turns around and goes in the opposite direction. Why? Because she has some coin. The Wall does not allow women to live there, but she would have seen them and thought things out (Well, not Benjen, but how would she know?). And Arya was never shy of hundreds of miles. Additionaly, those miles could have been taken by ship, like those to Braavos. When she is going to Bravvos, she is not going to the House of Black and White. She is just going your hundreds of miles away. To find nothing at all.

[chrisdaw]

Also, if "Aegon" is actually the real deal, that's a weird plot issue/poor writing. But it isn't a DEM.

Aegon is the culmination of the Varys/Illyrio plot line that has been built up from the beginning of the series and if he is real or not is largely irrelevant.

Varys/Illyrios involvement with Dany seems to have the greatest potential for a plot hole, we'll have to wait and see if he can tie it all that together.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

This series doesn't really have that many plot holes, at least none as glaring as "Why didn't they just ride the eagles to Mordor?"

It was debated on many forums. To put it shortly - because it is explicitly stated Tom Bombadil is the only entity in Middle-Earth immune to the power of the ring. Gwaihir (or any other eagle) would as much tempted to claim the One Ring to himself as anyone else. You know, the eagles are sentient beings, not living airplanes, and giving the ring to Gwaihir wouldn't be any better than giving it to Gandalf or Galadriel.

A great bird as an evil overlord of Middle-Earth would certainly be fun, OTOH. I guess it is mammal chauvinism or something which makes many readers blind to this possibility ;)

[Revan Baratheon]

It's already stated Mel has powers. We just happen to learn what her powers CAN DO when Renly is killed via Stannis-shadowbaby. That's not DEM. It's expanding on details of Mel's

abilities (and confirms that Stannis and she are sleeping together, at least after Ser Courtnay Penrose "mysteriously" dies via "shadowbaby" - Davos says in his POV - "He knew that shadow." Obviously implying it was Stannis.

Magic is NOT always a DEM, guys. It's

FANTASY for the love of god(s) (old, new, drowned, and fiery).

Silmarien i think what duke means is that the show might simply show Mel's powers without its repercussions-namely the cost that it took to

make those shadow babies.I know its fantasy but dont you think that the tv viewers might start asking why dosent Mel use her shadow things to

assasinate every king-Joffrey,Robb,Balon-and every threat-Tywin,Varys etc to stannis? Hell why dosent she create a shadow army?(like in

lotr the ghost army)

As long as they explain that making those things literally sucks the life out of stannis and could kill him,and that she needs to have sex with men "whose fire burns bright"(like Jon/Davos whom she tries to seduce) its fine and it wont be considered a DEM.

Btw ur getting a like for that last sentence lol.Why did ueven include drowned god? Rather god-fearing huh? :)

[Silverin]

Unsullied, and the fact that the merchants sold all of them to Dany.

Ever since I can't take Dany's trials caharcter development and plot seriously.

[Silmarien]

It is not like in DEM moments elsewhere butterflies bite manticores to death. It is about a designed object surfacing randomly and solving big problem/mystery. I agree some of the backstory will be explained, but at that moment it wasn't.

Instead of going to find the only person she loves and her uncle she just turns around and goes in the opposite direction. Why? Because she has some coin. The Wall does not allow women to live there, but she would have seen them and thought things out (Well, not Benjen, but how would she know?). And Arya was never shy of hundreds of miles. Additionaly, those miles could have been taken by ship, like those to Braavos. When she is going to Bravvos, she is not going to the House of Black and White. She is just going your hundreds of miles away. To find nothing at all.

Wait, Arya has never MET her uncle (Blackfish I assume?). Who would even recognize her? The Vale is unreachable at this point, recall, as the Hound tried ransoming her to Lysa, but the mountain clans were too strong with their armor and weapons from the Lannisters.

Her whole family was dead. No relatives who'd know her were reachable. She couldn't have possibly made it all the way to the Wall by herself. It was HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of miles North. She thought she had "no one" left. What would Jon have done with her? She couldn't have stayed with the NW. She's a girl!

[Silmarien]

Unsullied, and the fact that the merchants sold all of them to Dany.

Ever since I can't take Dany's trials caharcter development and plot seriously.

I don't think greed and the promise of one dragon of the three in existance is that unbelievable. Plus, they were not the brightest bulbs. Clearly.

I mean it's not like Dany let on that she was anti-slavery. Why would they think she was?

[Silmarien]

Silmarien i think what duke means is that the show might simply show Mel's powers without its repercussions-namely the cost that it took to

make those shadow babies.I know its fantasy but dont you think that the tv viewers might start asking why dosent Mel use her shadow things to

assasinate every king-Joffrey,Robb,Balon-and every threat-Tywin,Varys etc to stannis? Hell why dosent she create a shadow army?(like in

lotr the ghost army)

As long as they explain that making those things literally sucks the life out of stannis and could kill him,and that she needs to have sex with men "whose fire burns bright"(like Jon/Davos whom she tries to seduce) its fine and it wont be considered a DEM.

Btw ur getting a like for that last sentence lol.Why did ueven include drowned god? Rather god-fearing huh? :)

Well I hear rumors of sex scenes between Stannis and Mel in the series, so I doubt there'll be problems representing the cost of magic. :cool4: Or I hope not. I don't know how they'll do it, but causing an actor to look more haggard as time passes with Mel shouldn't be difficult (sleep deprivation + makeup).

In any fantasy series one could argue "well why doesn't X use their Y power to kill all the bad guys?" It's a dumb argument. Especially with GRRM. I hope they show the cost of magic. The producers do seem keen on downplaying the "magic" element, anyway. I hope they keep doing it too! ;)

ETA: Well, I just figured I'd cover my bases with the gods, you know. Wouldn't want the drowned god to get pissed and flood my apartment, or Rh'llor to cause a fire, the old gods to....um, warg my cat and wreak havoc, or the new gods to.....um....send the Faith Militant after me for my evil torrent downloading ways? Not that I'm admitting to that. You know. :leaving:

[a free shadow]

Wait, Arya has never MET her uncle (Blackfish I assume?). Who would even recognize her? The Vale is unreachable at this point, recall, as the Hound tried ransoming her to Lysa, but the mountain clans were too strong with their armor and weapons from the Lannisters.

Her whole family was dead. No relatives who'd know her were reachable. She couldn't have possibly made it all the way to the Wall by herself. It was HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of miles North. She thought she had "no one" left. What would Jon have done with her? She couldn't have stayed with the NW. She's a girl!

Her uncle Benjen. She had Jon AND Benjen on The Wall. That is more of the reson to go there as all the rest of her family was dead. And it is repeated again and again that what she wants most is her "pack". And Arya was never scared of difficulties. She ran to her death to the Twins for the chance to see Catelyn. It is against all we know about her character to ditch Jon and go nowhere. If you insist on your hundreds and hundreds of miles being more important than anything else, well, she could have caught a ship there like she did to Braavos. It would be more difficult, but once again, when was Arya scared of difficulties?

[Silmarien]

It was debated on many forums. To put it shortly - because it is explicitly stated Tom Bombadil is the only entity in Middle-Earth immune to the power of the ring. Gwaihir (or any other eagle) would as much tempted to claim the One Ring to himself as anyone else. You know, the eagles are sentient beings, not living airplanes, and giving the ring to Gwaihir wouldn't be any better than giving it to Gandalf or Galadriel.

A great bird as an evil overlord of Middle-Earth would certainly be fun, OTOH. I guess it is mammal chauvinism or something which makes many readers blind to this possibility ;)

And those Fell Beasts could have taken out the Eagles EASILY. Not such an easy theory. You can see Eagles from a mile away, Sauron could sense the Ring was with them and send his Fell Beasties after the Eagles. FAIL, for the good guys,

[Silmarien]

Her uncle Benjen. She had Jon AND Benjen on The Wall. That is more of the reson to go there as all the rest of her family was dead. And it is repeated again and again that what she wants most is her "pack". And Arya was never scared of difficulties. She ran to her death to the Twins for the chance to see Catelyn. It is against all we know about her character to ditch Jon and go nowhere. If you insist on your hundreds and hundreds of miles being more important than anything else, well, she could have caught a ship there like she did to Braavos. It would be more difficult, but once again, when was Arya scared of difficulties?

Benjen WAS NOT AT THE WALL! The Wall wouldn't have kept her because she's a GIRL. :bang: She had no way of knowing things would change when Stannis arrived. Or that Stannis was even there. Or who Stannis was!

Oh, gee, Arya afraid of difficulties? Um, maybe because she got captured by Gregor's sadistic minions, forced to work at Harrenhal as a virtual slave, then kidnapped by the BwB, then kidnapped again by the Hound. I'd have been ready to GTFO of Westeros after that shit, too. It's a smart thing to do.

[Silmarien]

[snip]

Drogon appearing in the fighting pits to singlehandedly destroy the peace between Yunkai and Meereen when he was out of the picture for half the book was a deus ex machina moment.

But - it didn't shatter the peace. It actually made Hizdahr sole ruler of Mereen, and more likely for the peace to continue. Or would have, if he hadn't been highly implicated in the poisoned locusts issue.

The most glaring moment for me was Varys killing Kevan in order to put Cersei back in charge.

That isn't a DEM. Where did you think Varys went? He didn't leave with Tyrion. And he knows the tunnels better than anybody in that whole dang city. He'd want to remain and prepare for "Aegon" to return. I didn't see him popping up and killing Kevan (a relatively minor character) as a DEM. It certainly implies that Cersei will take power again, or that the Tyrells will be in conflict with Cersei, but it ends with Kevan's death, so we don't know how it affects the plot yet.

For all we know Cersei will blame Tyrion!

The rest is story arcs intersecting with timing that verges on the improbable for dramatic effect. For example Matin could have had Stannis arive at the Wall a few days earlier. The difference would be that we wouldn't have Jon put in that precarious situation nor would we have eyes on the battle. The most improbable for me is Jon coming across Summer on his way to Castle Black . Considering the vastness of the landscape it's really, really unlikely that those groups would come across each other. It resulted in one of my favorite scenes in the books (Then death lept down among them).

Yes, but odd coincidences DO happen in real life. It's not like Jon was 500 miles away and suddenly appeared there at the right moment via teleporting (CoTF power!....maybe?).

On that note. Mance never trusted Jon. He kept him on a short leash and managed to coax usefull information from him on multiple occasions. Without Summer Jon would not have been able to escape.

Wasn't Bran warging Summer at this point? That's hardly a DEM, unless we're going to call all warging and magic DEMs. That would get tiresome.

[Knez Snow]

Stannis attacking the wildlings was a good one.

Mance trusting Jon after the Fist: awful one.

I don't count Mance trusting Jon as Deux ex machina, but i agree that it was kind of bad. Maybe plot hole. Tho he did not actually trust him, he send him with Styr because he knows stuff about Wall and NW, and told him to kill him on first sight of treason. But still, it was kind of lame. Jon should have just told him about fist- Mance would find out anyway, i see no reason for Jon not to just say it.

I agree on Stannis attacking Mance as good one, and ofc timing of it is what makes it kind of DEM.

There were not many Deux ex Machinas in series IMO. At least not that i remember of

[Iceborn]

Um Brienne being alive somehow and the inevitable not-dieing of Jon are the glareing ones

[Silmarien]

It Stannis at the Wall were truly a DEM:

No one would've mentioned the NW plea letter to him.

Edric Storm wouldn't matter

He would have appeared out of nowhere, perhaps the night the Wildlings stormed the Wall with only about 20-30 brothers there to defend it.

[Silmarien]

Um Brienne being alive somehow and the inevitable not-dieing of Jon are the glareing ones

After Lady Stoneheart, you think Brienne being alive is a DEM? Huh?

They didn't hang her via breaking the neck. That requires 9 feet and a platform that kicks out. They just strung her up on a branch to die of strangulation. Which obviously, she didn't after yelling "WORD" or "SWORD" or "ARYA" or "SANSA" or whatever.

ETA: Actually would require about 10 feet and a kickout platform for someone as tall as Brienne to break their necks being hanged.

[The Drunkard]

- Stannis appears at the Wall the very minute Jon's life is in serious danger.

- Summer appears and saves Jon's life the very minute he's in serious danger.

That's all I've got.

[The Sleeper]

But - it didn't shatter the peace. It actually made Hizdahr sole ruler of Mereen, and more likely for the peace to continue. Or would have, if he hadn't been highly implicated in the poisoned locusts issue.

That isn't a DEM. Where did you think Varys went? He didn't leave with Tyrion. And he knows the tunnels better than anybody in that whole dang city. He'd want to remain and prepare for "Aegon" to return. I didn't see him popping up and killing Kevan (a relatively minor character) as a DEM. It certainly implies that Cersei will take power again, or that the Tyrells will be in conflict with Cersei, but it ends with Kevan's death, so we don't know how it affects the plot yet.

For all we know Cersei will blame Tyrion!

Yes, but odd coincidences DO happen in real life. It's not like Jon was 500 miles away and suddenly appeared there at the right moment via teleporting (CoTF power!....maybe?).

Wasn't Bran warging Summer at this point? That's hardly a DEM, unless we're going to call all warging and magic DEMs. That would get tiresome.

I was actually making a point that there are few such moments and when they do occur they tend to result in awesome scenes. It's part of story telliing. An account of every-day occurences is a story of a different scope.

[a free shadow]

Benjen WAS NOT AT THE WALL! The Wall wouldn't have kept her because she's a GIRL. :bang: She had no way of knowing things would change when Stannis arrived. Or that Stannis was even there. Or who Stannis was!

Oh, gee, Arya afraid of difficulties? Um, maybe because she got captured by Gregor's sadistic minions, forced to work at Harrenhal as a virtual slave, then kidnapped by the BwB, then kidnapped again by the Hound. I'd have been ready to GTFO of Westeros after that shit, too. It's a smart thing to do.

For all Arya knew Benjen was at The Wall. And Jon. And Wall is not a closed monestary, people can visit and stay for a while (see Tyrion). She is a Stark, she would have been recieved properly. And had time and help to figure this all out. With no joining the Night's Watch, she would have found some place else not on the Wall, but close to Jon. But if you so insist of banging your head into a wall when there is a dozen doors, it is your choice of exercise.

Arya never was the one to run away from what is dear to her (see Mycah, Eddard's beheading, Red Wedding), so for her to turn around and go nowhere is absolutely not what we were told her character is all about.

Might I recommend you use less capital letters and give a try to "Multiquote" function?

[Howling Mad]

Ramsay Bolton somehow manages to fight and slaughter an army of northmen, roughly five times the size of his own force... and loses only "twenty or thirty" men.

Eh. The element of surprise can be great and everything, but those odds are dubious.

:agree: :agree: