Odds of Jaime and Brienne Ending Up Together

[Dunk the Drunk]

Please No! By the old gods and the new! If I wanted to read about a reckless man seeking redemption who had been injured and a plain woman who defys gender roles for her time getting together, I'd look out my battered old copy of Jane Eyre and be done.

[Le Cygne]

So how much do you want me to tear apart that comparison? Totally different stories.

[Dunk the Drunk]

So how much do you want me to tear apart that comparison? Totally different stories.

Indeed. It was intended to be glib.

But seriously I do hope the odds are poor.

[Kittykatknits]

Arianne, Asha, Dany, Jeyne, ... Highborn ladies need loving, too. And people got carried away then as now.

Sounds intriguing! That's another good story. And love is big throughout the books, what people do when they don't get enough, when they get too much, when they finally find it, ...

Here is a post from Lyanna Stark: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70772-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-viii/#entry3408532

Scroll down just a bit and you will see links to her two writeup on similarities. They are really well done.

Also, your listing of women, you are talking to about a very big theme within the books. Women's erotic desire and need for agency, something denied them in marriage, is reoccurring in some fashion in the storyline of every single female characters in the books.

[Le Cygne]

Also, your listing of women, you are talking to about a very big theme within the books. Women's erotic desire and need for agency, something denied them in marriage, is reoccurring in some fashion in the storyline of every single female characters in the books.

I wish we had seen some of that reflected on the screen.

[Currawong]

The surest way for something to not be a secret is for someone to know about it. I have no doubt that word will eventually get out that Jaime decided not to go help Cersei out. It may be that word reaches Jaime's troops about the WoS and then connections begin to be made. Dunno on the how, but the secret will come out. They always do. :)

Actually, it would be very interesting to see how it would be interpreted by the troops. If Jaime had rushed back to Cersei when he received the letter, that would be seen to confirm all the rumours, or at least prove that he cared more for his sister than doing his duty and carrying out the job that he was sent to do on behalf of the king. Neither of which would do him any credit. Instead, Jaime stays on and proceeds to carry out his orders as LC in the Riverlands. If his sister was stupid enough to send him a begging letter when he was too far away to do anything in time, then more fool her. The secret may come out eventually, but by ignoring the letter and carrying on with 'business as usual', Jaime has done his best to defuse things and keep the lid on. And of course, Cersei herself has not admitted to the incest, even in the WoS.

Far more interesting to me is what he has told the troops when he took off with Brienne :) He had finished the mopping up before he left, and was on his way back to Riverrun. Who did he leave in command and with what instructions? Leaving a large Lannister army in the RIverlands without its commander seems rather strange for the newly responsible and 'thinking' Jaime, so what happened between that one Jaime chapter in ADWD, and Kevan's chapters at the end, when first he tells Cersei of Jaime's disappearance, and the last one where he reflects a bit more about Jaime.

I also think that ASOIAF is more about love and relationships than people care to admit. These aren't Harlequin romance novels at all but just as relationships are a fundamental part of real life, they are a fundamental part of Westeros as well. I sometimes dwell on the idea that these are nihilistic works with a depressing ending but I really don't think that will happen. Martin has said that LotR matches his definition of a bittersweet ending. If we look to that as inspiration, there were still marriages and couples still feel in love even though there was a strong bittersweet element to it. Personally, I get rather annoyed when I see readers associate the idea of any marriage with HEA as I don't think it's an accurate statement. It's a part of life so I think it would be rather unrealistic for this not to be a part of the conclusion, you know?

Yes, and of the relationships mentioned or established in LOTR, which we know GRRM loves, three key ones came to pass - Aragorn/Arwen, Faramir/ Eowyn, and Sam/Rosie. There was a bittersweet element to the first because of Arwen's immortality, but the other two were normal and happy, even though there had been losses of loved ones during the war. If we look at the Sansa/Sandor and Brienne/Jaime relationships, there are parallel opportunities for three of them to lose at least one person whom they love (not sure about Sandor having anyone left!) And GRRM certainly has many more female characters in his world than Tolkein did in LOTR, and has taken more time with the relationships.

Brienne has just got to be de-maidened by Jaime, no matter what, though. You can't just drop lines like I dreamed of you on a bunch of readers and not go there!

ROFL, but I do agree with Joelene Brown who suggested that because Brienne is a highborn lady, Jaime may have a few more 'issues' about deflowering her, especially given the views about the importance of maidenhood on a first marriage! Not to mention that Jaime himself seems to be on a new path of honour towards his KG oath, which includes celibacy - he's certainly not had any sex with Cersei since that one frantic time in the sept when he first returned.

EDITED last line with 'not', as Le Cygne pointed out!! :D

[Le Cygne]

I think you mean he hasn't, hate sex in the sept was the last time. Some guys may be cut out for celibacy, but I don't think Jaime is one of them.

[Jolene Brown]

I think we can see that celibacy is wearing on Jaime. He does complain that Cercei "hadn't let him near her since that time in the sept" a POV or so after the sept scene, but then he turns her down twice (in the lord commander's tower and at his vigil over Tywin) and then once he finds out about the Lancel, Osmund, maybe Moonboy thing, there is more and more conflict between them and I think he begins to desire her less and less. However, once he gets out into the Riverlands, he starts to awaken to other women - he notices Pia's figure and is sort of titillated by Janos Bracken's camp follower Hildy. He also thinks back to Brienne/Harrenhall when he is taking a bath.

I think we're meant to see that he is moving toward a readiness to be with someone other than Cercei, for the first time in his life. But I do think Brienne's "honor," will be a stumbling block, although one that they can probably get over. And I agree that he seems to be recommitting himself to taking his Kingsguard obligations/vows more seriously, so that may be a stumbling block as well.

[Le Cygne]

Come on ladies, don't overthink it. It's a love story. Everyone around them is getting some loving. Why not them.

The Kingsguard is pretty much in shambles, needs a complete revamp. I don't see Tommen staying on the throne, and Jaime's going to have to step down anyway.

[Jolene Brown]

Come on ladies, don't overthink it. It's a love story. Everyone around them is getting some loving. Why not them.

The Kingsguard is pretty much in shambles, needs a complete revamp. I don't see Tommen staying on the throne, and Jaime's going to have to step down anyway.

I guess I'm just trying to avoid setting myself up for disappointment! Trust me, I want it to happen BAD, and SOON. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

I guess I'm just trying to avoid setting myself up for disappointment! Trust me, I want it to happen BAD, and SOON. :)

Well Brienne is a compassionate woman right? And we all know what happens when women "comfort" men in the Riverlands and nearby (Jeyne Westerling, Lysa Tully).

[Le Cygne]

That's the angle we needed. The Riverlands. :)

[Jolene Brown]

And where are Brienne and Jaime right now, one asks? Off together in the Riverlands... I just hope she doesn't have some BWB members trailing her from afar... that would put a damper on the sweet sweet loving I am hoping for.

[Lyanna Stark]

And where are Brienne and Jaime right now, one asks? Off together in the Riverlands... I just hope she doesn't have some BWB members trailing her from afar... that would put a damper on the sweet sweet loving I am hoping for.

Brienne has a broken arm, some broken ribs, half her cheek recently chewed off and has also been semi hanged, so she's probably not in a good shape for anything. The poor woman could probably use a holiday on the QI with some care from the Elder Brother.

[Jolene Brown]

Maybe that's where they've been for the past several weeks? Chilling on the quiet Isle, recovering? That would be a lot more relaxing than whatever GRRM probably has planned for them.

I'm actually really curious about how much time passed between the semi-hanging in AFFC and Brienne's arrival at Jaime's camp in ADWD. A day? A week? He's at Riverrun, I think, when she is being hanged, so enough time for him to wrap things up there, ride to Raventree, negotiate the surrender, then ride to Pennytree. I would guess maybe 4-5 days?

[Lyanna Stark]

Maybe that's where they've been for the past several weeks? Chilling on the quiet Isle, recovering? That would be a lot more relaxing than whatever GRRM probably has planned for them.

I'm actually really curious about how much time passed between the semi-hanging in AFFC and Brienne's arrival at Jaime's camp in ADWD. A day? A week? He's at Riverrun, I think, when she is being hanged, so enough time for him to wrap things up there, ride to Raventree, negotiate the surrender, then ride to Pennytree. I would guess maybe 4-5 days?

Brienne said one day's ride to wherever they needed to go. Kevan mentions that Jaime has been missing for weeks, so perhaps up to a month? (I don't know if "weeks" means more three weeks, or up to 5-6 weeks). Should Brienne survive, I think she will need some time to recuperate. She was injured pretty badly and broken bones takes at least a couple of months to heal properly, and to train the body again takes a while, especially with multiple fractures (I had that myself once, and ouch it took a long time for it to feel normal again).

[NotSoSilentSister]

I've said it before and will again. Why, oh why, does Brienne have to love the best-looking guys in the Realm? First, Renly, who both Brienne and Sansa thought was the best-looking guy in the kingdom, then Jaime (my fave POV). It drives me as nuts as does Tyrion's desire for only gorgeous women. I want to reach through the book and give Brienne a copy of Smart Women, Foolish Choices.

Well, it's not like Brienne is rejecting other decent, but less gorgeous guys left and right in favor of her pipe dreams. If my choice will be unattainable anyway, because guys seem to unversially loath me, I might as well go for the prettiest guy. It will never be more than a dream anyway, so why not dream big? And before Jaime, guys would not even give her the time of the day, so she had no chance to learn to appreciate them for less shallow reasons.

The same applies to Tyrion, but unlike Tyrion, Brienne never has uncharitable thoughts about men for their lack of conventional beauty (compare Tyrion who derides the poor Stokeworth girls). So we don't know if she would reject them, if they made a move. Brienne seems to have been quite susceptible to Hyle Hunt's initial flatteries, when she took them as genuine and we never get the impression that Hyle is particularly gorgeous, do we?

Also, when Brienne finally falls for Jaime, he's already a cripple - wounded and dirty and derelict, not exactly at the height of his beauty. When they are prisoners of Vargo, she has to clean off his sh*t - that would turn off a superficial person pretty fast, wouldn't it?

Sure, Jaime will always be beautiful, cripple or not. But he was beautiful before, yet Brienne did not fall for him immediately. It's plausible to assume that there must have been other reasons for her change of mind about him. I guess the whole "revealing the true motivation for killing Aerys"/ "coming back to save her life" thing might have something to do with it.

[Kittykatknits]

Maybe that's where they've been for the past several weeks? Chilling on the quiet Isle, recovering? That would be a lot more relaxing than whatever GRRM probably has planned for them.

I'm actually really curious about how much time passed between the semi-hanging in AFFC and Brienne's arrival at Jaime's camp in ADWD. A day? A week? He's at Riverrun, I think, when she is being hanged, so enough time for him to wrap things up there, ride to Raventree, negotiate the surrender, then ride to Pennytree. I would guess maybe 4-5 days?

Brienne said one day's ride to wherever they needed to go. Kevan mentions that Jaime has been missing for weeks, so perhaps up to a month? (I don't know if "weeks" means more three weeks, or up to 5-6 weeks). Should Brienne survive, I think she will need some time to recuperate. She was injured pretty badly and broken bones takes at least a couple of months to heal properly, and to train the body again takes a while, especially with multiple fractures (I had that myself once, and ouch it took a long time for it to feel normal again).

I figured it was somewhere between three and six weeks too. If it's closer to eight week, then wouldn't Kevan say months instead of weeks?

My guess is that they are still with the BWB at this point, for something, I just don't know what. I can't see them releasing Brienne to go to the QI. Or perhaps what was supposed to happen with these two already did and they are on there way somewhere? This story line for the two of them is going to nag at me until WoW comes out.

Well, it's not like Brienne is rejecting other decent, but less gorgeous guys left and right in favor of her pipe dreams. If my choice will be unattainable anyway, because guys seem to unversially loath me, I might as well go for the prettiest guy. It will never be more than a dream anyway, so why not dream big? And before Jaime, guys would not even give her the time of the day, so she had no chance to learn to appreciate them for less shallow reasons.

The same applies to Tyrion, but unlike Tyrion, Brienne never has uncharitable thoughts about men for their lack of conventional beauty (compare Tyrion who derides the poor Stokeworth girls). So we don't know if she would reject them, if they made a move. Brienne seems to have been quite susceptible to Hyle Hunt's initial flatteries, when she took them as genuine and we never get the impression that Hyle is particularly gorgeous, do we?

I agree. Brienne may like the pretty guys, just as Tyrion likes beautiful women. But she's much more mature and realistic in her expectations too.

[NotSoSilentSister]

People have argued that the long time Jaime has been away in combination with the BWB's lack of motivation to keep his execution quiet speaks against the "delivered to Uncat and executed" hypothesis and I can see the logic behind that reasoning.

But I can't see Jaime team up with the BWB either: losing Lannister/Frey control over the Riverlands would drastically reduce Thommen's life expectancy and I feel that new improved Jaime takes his King's Guard Duties quite a bit more seriously this time around. Also, as some have mentioned, he's discovering his paternal side. He might no longer be loyal to Cersei but he's certainly still loyal to Thommen and therefore most likely still deeply comitted to the Lannister cause.

Of course, all of this conflict of interest might be less of a problem for UnJaime, since the Red-Priest-revenants are all characterized by a certain single-mindedness.

[Currawong]

Brienne has a broken arm, some broken ribs, half her cheek recently chewed off and has also been semi hanged, so she's probably not in a good shape for anything. The poor woman could probably use a holiday on the QI with some care from the Elder Brother.

And a bit of tender loving from Jaime! :D Don't forget that - I mean, if women are allowed to comfort men in the Riverlands, surely there should be some equal opportunity there ;) It might help heal them both, though he'll have to go easy with those broken ribs of hers, which tend to scream at you when you laugh or take a deep breath :( Been there, done that myself when I've come off horses ...

I wonder how long it took for Jaime to suss out that she'd been hurt quite badly. He's a soldier, and he'd be quick to recognise the signs of someone trying to hide injuries. And once he realised that she was hurt, I don't think he'd settle for just anything less than the truth about what happened to her. Actually, that could be what tips him off that her Sansa/Hound story is not the truth: just as she knew him well enough to know that he did not believe Tyrion killed Joffrey, I think he knows her well enough to suss out when she is lying to him.