Syrio to return?

[Leto]

Not strange at all, Martin likes leaving the audience to spell some things for themselves, he has said it a few times.

As I said, there are some important things separating the two:

• The immediacy of the threat is different, one will kill as soon as the blade finds the flesh, minutes at most, there is a will behind that threat; the other is some vague thing that depends on luck and immune system and would have to be measured in days
  
• The possibility of getting help is quite different: when in one case you're in the enemy fortress and all you will get as wanderers is more enemies, in the countryside you can actually find non-hostile guys, as you point yourself. It's not because there isn't a 100% assured help than it's not better than the 0% of the Red Keep.
  
• The outcome is obviously quite different: in one case the danger (pursuit, fever) is soundly beaten, in another the danger is shown some pages after without a scratch.
  

"Vanishing among the chaos" is a pretty saying, but there isn't much chaos to vanish into, in that room: there's Trant, and there's Syrio, and Syrio is pressed enough to need to parry (thus getting his stick shorn in half) instead of always dodge. And Trant walks from that scene alive and unharmed.

- urgency doesn't equal severity , regardless if sandor was to die the next minute or in 2 days the chance of survival was slim.

- syrio could help himself he was able and unharmed, sandor could not and thusly required outside assistance.

- outcome. sandors is unknown, but the case for him being alive is strong. trant: he survived without major injury, this doesn't mean he won.

I just can't see how sandor is left in a state where it is reasonable to assume he lives and syrio in a stat that it is impossible for him to live. both were hopeless situation.

my point all along was that grrm left syrios fate open to the reader, and this point was made in response to rude comments aimed towards people who thought him alive. it is obviously more likely he is dead but there is no solid proof either way and the sandor example was to show that likely doesn't cut it as proof.

[pourthedamhypocras]

So after reading fascinating theories involving everything from martial arts training, "strategery" and just plain "the odds of his dumb luck". I'm ready to commit to why I really think Martin hasn't killed Syrio. His name is too good. Why did GMMR pick that name anyway? There's always his first name "Syrio" hmmm.... sounds a lot like Cyrano, a very famous literary "duelist" whom despite overwhelming odds, seems to survive scrapes with whole armys. I used to teach, so I can't just give everyone the significance of his last name...hands up..who's got it?

[Errant Bard]

However,he defeats5armoured men before he gets to Trant.Theres swords all around.Could Trant have defeated all5of the other men?I doubt it.

They were not armoured, they just had chainmails, and thus plenty of very vulnerable areas, which incidentally was where Syrio struck. Of course he could have killed them, he's a tank: he takes a hit, armour stops it, he strikes, and there is no armour on his opponent to stop it: the opponent dies, repeat.

Remember Barristan's fight in Meereen where the opponent actually has his weapon of choice and was like, the bloody equivalent of a first sword, only in another city?

I think it's fairly ridiculous to assume Meryn Trant could have bested Syrio and I don't see how anyone could disagree.

You see it now. Armour and weapon and training, even without talent, win against no armour and no weapon. Brienne actually makes that very point repeatedly in AFFC, though of course in her case it's only a dagger versus a rock, instead of full armour and sword versus broken stick, but the dagger always wins.

[Wright]

I'm normally the first person to not believe someone is dead unless I see a body, but ... I think Syrio is dead. I think he served his narrative purpose — train Arya and toughen her up and protect her from the Lannister guards — and he was killed. In order to escape, he would have had to have killed or severely maimed Meryn Trant. Trant is shown later alive and without any injuries of note, the insinuation being that he did dispatch Syrio. I think it's just that Syrio really was just a minor character — his popularity grew after the fact, when Martin had already closed the book on him — and thus didn't really necessitate the on-screen death that would otherwise (and later in the series) be necessary to prove a death.

ETA: And I don't think he's Jaqen. Jaqen had been in the cells for, what, a few years? I don't think he could have been in the cells and roaming free giving sword-fighting lessons. I think Jaqen's interesting (did he intend to land in the black cells, knowing he'd be taken north, or was he caught at something?), but I don't think he's Syrio.

Perhaps the original Jaqen had been there for years, but Syrio (going with the possible Sryio = FM theory) could have taken on his persona and taken his place.

[Light a wight tonight]

Too much importance is being gven to Sryio fighting a man in full armor. I don't get the impression that he was fighting. He hit trant several times on the helmet with his weighted stick. You think he was dumb enough to think that would harm Trant? He was letting Trant know that he was able to hit him at will, and maybe ring his ears a little. He could have evaded Trant all afternoon if he wanted to. Trant was slow anyhow, and in armor he was slower, and would have been exhausted soon. The Bronn and Oberyn duels show how to deal with a slower opponent.

Syrio almost certainly got away clean. No need for a Syrio/Arya meetup later.

[Ashen Shugar]

people seem to be discounting the Braavos - FM connection as well. Under most circumstances this would be considered a clue.

Yes, not everyone from Braavos is an FM, but he is not just a random Braavosi. We are told he is the former first sword, he shows the skill to back that up and he just happens to show up when Ned is looking for someone to train Arya. Arya who is now training with the FM who seem to have picked her out as having potential from early on(could of been even earlier than originally thought). It is by no means a stretch to consider the possibility of him being a FM.

Syrio instructs Arya to see with her eyes, he has also shown that he is not above lying to her to teach her the appropriate lesson. Basically he could of easily been telling her what she needed to hear.

Also I highly doubt Trant could of taken out the 5 Lannister guards and the opponent barristan faced was a hot head, in a Syrio vs kraz(was it?) duel, I'd have my money on Syrio.

I agree with most that purely based on odds, he is dead. However this is a fantasy series where MUCH stranger things have happened and this particular case has no overwhelming evidence either way.

Is there an explanation of how jaquen knows Arya?

[Errant Bard]

Non random braavosi have less chance to be FMs than random ones. Syrio has even less, considering his occupation. Showing up to "train" Arya implies a level of seeing into the future that makes certain other decisions implied by the theory utterly stupid.

He could have evaded Trant all afternoon if he wanted to.

And he never needed to parry and never got his stick cut in half three mere strikes into the fight, too.

[Grip]

You see it now. Armour and weapon and training, even without talent, win against no armour and no weapon. Brienne actually makes that very point repeatedly in AFFC, though of course in her case it's only a dagger versus a rock, instead of full armour and sword versus broken stick, but the dagger always wins.

I think this is a very good point. What we saw at the final moments of the fight was a Syrio who was more or less cornered and who was forced to try and parry Trants strike, the strike that broke his stick in two. I am sure that if Syrio had any other trick up his sleeve he would have pulled it out, but he didnt. He had already dodged and whatnot, using his stick was his last resort as he must have known that his stick couldnt compete with Trants sword..

[Lummel]

...Yes, not everyone from Braavos is an FM, but he is not just a random Braavosi. We are told he is the former first sword, he shows the skill to back that up and he just happens to show up when Ned is looking for someone to train Arya. Arya who is now training with the FM who seem to have picked her out as having potential from early on(could of been even earlier than originally thought). It is by no means a stretch to consider the possibility of him being a FM...

Why would someone whose job it is to protect someone from assassination and attack be associated with an order of assassins? The Kindly Old Man is not impressed by Braavos - their philosophies are opposite. One is about duel and choosing who you kill the other is about service and killing those that God has selected to die.

So yes it is a stretch to consider that Syrio was a faceless man.

Is there an explanation of how jaquen knows Arya?

Yes a man puts one fact after another and reaches a conclusion. A man sitting in the back of a wagon with only the scintillating conservation of Rorge and Biter sees one thing after another and has a lot of time to think.

A 'boy' who always goes off to where 'he' can't be seen to pee, who has a sword, well spoken, who thinks he is wanted by Queen Cersei and who is being kept safe by the Night's Watch.

Not too hard to guess that it is one of Lord Stark's daughters in disguise. Two to choice from and this one calls herself Arry. Tricky. Could it be Sansa Stark?

[Errant Bard]

A 'boy' who always goes off to where 'he' can't be seen to pee, who has a sword, well spoken, who thinks he is wanted by Queen Cersei and who is being kept safe by the Night's Watch.

Also a "boy" who screams "Winterfell" in battle, who prays to the old gods, who is openly resentful because they didn't save a man who also prayed to the old gods, who wants Jaqen to bring him to Riverrun and who knows water dancing (only taught to noble brats in westeros)

Also, noticing the peeing patterns a man certainly did, but a girl wasn't pretending to be a boy anymore by the time a man came to Harrenhal with Lorch's company.

[Errant Bard]

- urgency doesn't equal severity , regardless if sandor was to die the next minute or in 2 days the chance of survival was slim.

Actually it does. You have more chances to live if you have a window of days to get help, and what is eating you has no will, than when you have seconds to get help and what is attacking has a will bent on your death.

syrio could help himself

Not really, he was unarmoured and unarmed, and showed he had to forgo dodging and try to parry early on, too. He has about as much opportunity of fleeing than Sandor had to get onto his horse.

outcome. sandors is unknown, but the case for him being alive is strong. trant: he survived without major injury, this doesn't mean he won.

Huh, how does it not?

I just can't see how sandor is left in a state where it is reasonable to assume he lives and syrio in a stat that it is impossible for him to live. both were hopeless situation.

One was more hopeless than the other. And it's more than what happens when we leave them, it's what's written in the books afterwards. We know what goes on beyond it: Everything contradicts a Syrio living, while a lot points at Sandor living.

Also, if Syrio's idea of protecting Arya is giving her a few minutes headstart before disappearing somewhere in a puff of smoke because screw Westeros, he can go through walls, then my consideration for the character would match the one I have of Dontos.

[mormont]

Now, I know a fair bit about using a sword, having used rapiers, falchions, bastard swords, langseaxes, and various others against armour ranging from padding to plate. So if we're arguing realism in the Trant/Syrio fight, I feel qualified to say that Syrio realistically stood little to no chance against even an inferior fighter if they were armoured as Trant was. Even if he picked up a discarded sword, which is actually quite a difficult and dangerous thing to do when someone is trying to kill you, by the way.

However, I also know that all arguments based on whether Syrio could or could not have beaten Trant are meaningless. This isn't real life, it's a book: fights come out the way the author says they did. If GRRM decided to have Syrio win, he won, and vice versa. We have to go on other evidence instead, and practically all of that tends towards the notion that Syrio is dead - though I know it's not conclusive enough for some. ;)

[Leto]

Actually it does. You have more chances to live if you have a window of days to get help, and what is eating you has no will, than when you have seconds to get help and what is attacking has a will bent on your death.

Not really, he was unarmoured and unarmed, and showed he had to forgo dodging and try to parry early on, too. He has about as much opportunity of fleeing than Sandor had to get onto his horse.

Huh, how does it not?

One was more hopeless than the other. And it's more than what happens when we leave them, it's what's written in the books afterwards. We know what goes on beyond it: Everything contradicts a Syrio living, while a lot points at Sandor living.

Also, if Syrio's idea of protecting Arya is giving her a few minutes headstart before disappearing somewhere in a puff of smoke because screw Westeros, he can go through walls, then my consideration for the character would match the one I have of Dontos.

What are you arguing? That when Arya denied Sandor the gift of mercy, that so kindly was given to the soldier earlier, he wasn't left in a scenario that implies he would die?

Of course that was the intention of that scene, just like the Syrio scene.

As for not killing trant, why would death of trant be the one and only way? simply getting him to fall would be enough to get away.

The fact of the matter is that the death of Syrio is not conclusive. So why tell people they are wrong in how they interpret the story they read?

Is Syrio likely dead? yes

Was Sandor likely dead? yes

Did a light go up for sandor being alive? yes

Will a light go up for Syrio? probably no, but who knows.

[Ashen Shugar]

Why would someone whose job it is to protect someone from assassination and attack be associated with an order of assassins? The Kindly Old Man is not impressed by Braavos - their philosophies are opposite. One is about duel and choosing who you kill the other is about service and killing those that God has selected to die.

So yes it is a stretch to consider that Syrio was a faceless man.

Except, if he is an FM he probably isn't really the first sword of Braavos. So, no it is not a stretch. He has the skill to pass of as such yet we have absolutely no evidence that he is who he says he is.

I've said several times he is most likely dead, there is simply no conclusive evidence.

Thanks for clearing up how jaquen may have known Arya, I have only read each book once and except for ADwD they were a year or two ago, so I couldn't remember.

Not too hard to guess that it is one of Lord Stark's daughters in disguise. Two to choice from and this one calls herself Arry. Tricky. Could it be Sansa Stark?

lol, no need to be an arsehole about it. :D

Though you gotta admit, from your description Jaquen does seem to be someone who sees with his eyes. Syrio would be proud. ;)

[redraike]

And Trant walks from that scene alive and unharmed.

This could also be used as evidence that Syrio didn't engage in combat, and quickly lept out a window or otherwise escaped. The fact that Trant is unharmed proves only that he wasn't injured.

[corbon]

This could also be used as evidence that Syrio didn't engage in combat, and quickly lept out a window or otherwise escaped. The fact that Trant is unharmed proves only that he wasn't injured.

:rolleyes:

Fine.

That makes Syrio a pompous liar full of braggadocio though, not a cool, heroic, badass swordsman.

"The First Sword of Bravos Does Not Run."

It also completely ignores the Arya recapture angle.

[The Imp With A Pimp Limp]

I think that Syrio is dead, yes he cold be alive, the ending s a bit ambiguous but there's not a lot of chances he survived. I mean you don't see people saying Balon didn't die because we didn't see it, that he escaped in a little boat to infiltrate Oldtown.

My opinion on this issue is that GRRM miggghhhtt have wanted to make Syrio return, so he left a wiggle room so he could do that if he needed too. He didn't though, later we see Trant and he's fine, Martin said you know what, I don't need him, I could have used him but I dont want to. He served his purpose thats all. It's said that he died but that's the way it goes. I think we would have seen him by now, also if Syrio turned into Trant I doubt that Pod would have killed him.

I also don't think that Syrio=FM, why would a FM train a girl water dancing in KL, like come on, I understand it couuld happen but it's very unlikely.

[redraike]

:rolleyes:

Fine.

That makes Syrio a pompous liar full of braggadocio though, not a cool, heroic, badass swordsman.

"The First Sword of Bravos Does Not Run."

It also completely ignores the Arya recapture angle.

Arya recapture angle?

[redraike]

My opinion on this issue is that GRRM miggghhhtt have wanted to make Syrio return, so he left a wiggle room so he could do that if he needed too.

Agree.

I think we would have seen him by now, also if Syrio turned into Trant I doubt that Pod would have killed him.

I also don't think that Syrio=FM, why would a FM train a girl water dancing in KL, like come on, I understand it couuld happen but it's very unlikely.

From what we know of Braavos, it's rather clear that Syrio is of a different class of Braavosi society than the Faceless Men.

[Jorge Danger]

:rolleyes:

Fine.

That makes Syrio a pompous liar full of braggadocio though, not a cool, heroic, badass swordsman.

"The First Sword of Bravos Does Not Run."

It also completely ignores the Arya recapture angle.

Can I mail you five dollars for using the word braggadocio in a conversation?