R+L=J v.22

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The thing about Lyanna, She was so tough, a she wolf. i understand that giving birth, including a first child was dangerous for the mother in medeval society. After reading ADwD I was hit by the possibility that maybe she gave birth to twins and that trauma, being her first birth would be enough to kill such a strong woman. "Whylla" is a name that might be more than a red herring or maybe not. Switching babies seems to be something that could have been pulled off but not here. Jon is definitely a Stark either through Lyanna as mother or Ned or Brandon as a father. Ned never calls directly to Jon as "son" in AGoT and that is signifigant. I am paranoid of twists in this series after Aegon/Young Griff that it would not surprise me if GRRM has Jon as Brandon's boy with Ashara Dayne and Lyana might still be alive with Rheagar's kid (maybe he is Aegon/Young Griff and she is Septa Lemore), who the f knows. What about the Kingsguard? Did all of them die or was there a solution offered that included them as faking their deaths and taking the pince into exile to save him? Or did it all go down as the peices of this story have suggested they did. Until Howland Reed reveals himself, drinks a large stein of ale and finds someone to talk to, we may never know.

Childbirth doesn't care how tough you are. Once an infection sets in, in that situation without modern medicine, that's it. She was also only 16 when she died, if I remember, and it's possible that her body simply wasn't developed enough yet through the hips to have a stable delivery.

I think that if Martin tosses in twins or another baby switch, it'd be too much. It's almost too much now as it is. I think it was Jon and just Jon. And Brandon can't be his father, given that he was conceived when Brandon was already dead.

yes i remember the bed of blood. but only the reader is privy to that right? is this what the rest of the characters in the book believe? she died in childbirth? where does everyone think the child is?

We don't know exactly what Ned told everyone about what Lyanna died from. The important thing is, whatever he told people, they believed it and it appears that no one in this present day is suspicious of anything.

And no one wonders where the child is because no one but the people who were there know there was a child at all.

[Knight of the Crying Bush]

Childbirth doesn't care how tough you are. Once an infection sets in, in that situation without modern medicine, that's it. She was also only 16 when she died, if I remember, and it's possible that her body simply wasn't developed enough yet through the hips to have a stable delivery.

I think that if Martin tosses in twins or another baby switch, it'd be too much. It's almost too much now as it is. I think it was Jon and just Jon. And Brandon can't be his father, given that he was conceived when Brandon was already dead.

We don't know exactly what Ned told everyone about what Lyanna died from. The important thing is, whatever he told people, they believed it and it appears that no one in this present day is suspicious of anything.

And no one wonders where the child is because no one but the people who were there know there was a child at all.

Ah. I see. It'd be a shame if Ned had to claim murder on a part of the KG he admired so much. It'd be another hit to his honor too. But he made a promise.

[Ygrain]

You need to convince the Kingsguard, not me. They are the ones who said they don't flee when asked about Viserys on Dragonstone, which is the point I'm trying to convey.

It is stated repeatedly throughout the series the the rule no.1 about KG is that at all times, at least 1 of them MUST protect the king, and they are bound to protect the king at any cost, which definitely sets their task higher than their personal sense of honour.

yes i remember the bed of blood. but only the reader is privy to that right? is this what the rest of the characters in the book believe? she died in childbirth? where does everyone think the child is?

As it seems no-one else knows there was a child.

Cersei's words about Ashara point to the fact that everyone knows he went to Starfall (to return Dawn) and came away from Starfall with Jon (and Lyanna's bones), and left Ashara apparently having committed suicide.

1. Ned is known to have 'reappeared' after the war at Starfall.

2. Jon's first public appearance is at Starfall.

3. Ned takes Jon away from Starfall.

4. Ashara of Starfall commits suicide when Ned does this (or so people believe).

5. There may be old rumours of Ashara Dayne being dishonoured at Harrenhal, possibly by a Stark.

1+2+3+4, possibly+5= Jon is a Stark bastard that Ned takes home to be raised as a Stark, against Ashara's will, causing her suicide.

6. Rumour of Ashara being Jon's mother are shut down by Ned at Winterfell. But never denied.

No need to hunt further. Ashara is the mother, who cares which Stark is the father. Nothing particularly interesting to delve deeper here.

Its very simple. People have worked out on their own a naughty, delicious, salacious, romantic, tragic tale that fits everything perfectly. And is later confirmed by Jon having the Stark look.

They don't push further because they believe they have already worked out the answer, and it wasn't force-fed them either.

Is this actually stated explicitely that Ned brought Jon from Starfall? Could it not be that people put together Ned's journey there, Ashara's suicide and Ned's bastard, without actually knowing the child was ever there or not?

The thing about Lyanna, She was so tough, a she wolf. i understand that giving birth, including a first child was dangerous for the mother in medeval society. After reading ADwD I was hit by the possibility that maybe she gave birth to twins and that trauma, being her first birth would be enough to kill such a strong woman. "Whylla" is a name that might be more than a red herring or maybe not. Switching babies seems to be something that could have been pulled off but not here. Jon is definitely a Stark either through Lyanna as mother or Ned or Brandon as a father. Ned never calls directly to Jon as "son" in AGoT and that is signifigant. I am paranoid of twists in this series after Aegon/Young Griff that it would not surprise me if GRRM has Jon as Brandon's boy with Ashara Dayne and Lyana might still be alive with Rheagar's kid (maybe he is Aegon/Young Griff and she is Septa Lemore), who the f knows. What about the Kingsguard? Did all of them die or was there a solution offered that included them as faking their deaths and taking the pince into exile to save him? Or did it all go down as the peices of this story have suggested they did. Until Howland Reed reveals himself, drinks a large stein of ale and finds someone to talk to, we may never know.

As Apple Martini has said, being strong has nothing to do with contracting an infection. If the child was in a wrong position, Lyanna would be badly torn and weakened by blood loss, and if an infection set in, there is nothing the Westerosi medicine could have done.

One thing concerning the Wylla part: one of the puzzles seems to be why a northern name should be associated to a servant in the south. However: do we know any other bearer of the name in the North than Wylla Manderly? Because, Manderlys are originally a SOUTHERN house, from the Reach, which is just above Dorne.

ETA: Jon can't be Ashara + Brandon, that would make him considerably older than Robb (almost two years), which makes a big difference in babies. In order to be passed off as Ned's bastard conceived during the Rebellion and after Ned's marriage to Catelyn, he really must be more or less the same age with Robb when Catelyn arrives at Winterfell

[Ygrain]

Bump!

pin pin pin pretty please!

[Peach Fuzz]

The thing about Lyanna, She was so tough, a she wolf. i understand that giving birth, including a first child was dangerous for the mother in medeval society. After reading ADwD I was hit by the possibility that maybe she gave birth to twins and that trauma, being her first birth would be enough to kill such a strong woman. "Whylla" is a name that might be more than a red herring or maybe not. Switching babies seems to be something that could have been pulled off but not here. Jon is definitely a Stark either through Lyanna as mother or Ned or Brandon as a father. Ned never calls directly to Jon as "son" in AGoT and that is signifigant. I am paranoid of twists in this series after Aegon/Young Griff that it would not surprise me if GRRM has Jon as Brandon's boy with Ashara Dayne and Lyana might still be alive with Rheagar's kid (maybe he is Aegon/Young Griff and she is Septa Lemore), who the f knows. What about the Kingsguard? Did all of them die or was there a solution offered that included them as faking their deaths and taking the pince into exile to save him? Or did it all go down as the peices of this story have suggested they did. Until Howland Reed reveals himself, drinks a large stein of ale and finds someone to talk to, we may never know.

I like this alot. I was thinking maybe Lyanna gave birth to twins . The thing with the R + L = J is how could Ned no he wouldnt grow up to look like rhaegar? Was he born with black hair black eyes, i mean i was full blonde till i was 2 then went dark haired and a babys eye colour dosent show straight away.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think that's why Ned planted the Ashara Dayne rumours. The Daynes have Valyrian features, too, so if Jon turned out to look like Rhaegar, there was already a theory floating around that could explain the silver hair away.

[Towel]

If it's twins then R+L=J has officially jumped the shark.

[FuzzyJAM]

I assumed "R+L=J" when I read Game of Thrones first time. The later books just pile on so much evidence that it's incredibly obvious that it's either true or GRRM is deliberately leading readers to believe it despite it being false. There's really no other way to read it.

If it's twins then R+L=J has officially jumped the shark.

Jumped the Stark, perhaps?

[Towel]

Bahahahaha! +1 internetz for you sir

[Buried Treasure]

Cersei's words about Ashara point to the fact that everyone knows he went to Starfall (to return Dawn) and came away from Starfall with Jon (and Lyanna's bones), and left Ashara apparently having committed suicide.

I don't think anyone knows any more than that. There is an inference that he probably fought Arthur Dayne, but I don't think that possibility automatically transfers to the rest of the missing KG. Arthur Dayne was initially separated from them, and probably always presumed to be alone with Lyanna, since Rhaegar reappeared without him.

W.r.t. whether it is known that Ned fought the Kingsguard. All people at KL need to know was that at some point whilst in the South Ned came across the kingsguard. They don't need to ask what the kingsguard were guarding or even whether the KG were trying to make for Viserys. It is enough to know that the the first time they confronted any of Robert's forces they fought a battle and died - because 'surrender or die' is the choice given to all Targaryen loyalists at this point in the war. Everybody else chose to surrender, including Barristan the Bold, but Kingsguard honour is supposed to be different from other mens and it would suprise no-one that they would refuse to kneel.

[Teal'c]

The thing about Lyanna, She was so tough, a she wolf. i understand that giving birth, including a first child was dangerous for the mother in medeval society. After reading ADwD I was hit by the possibility that maybe she gave birth to twins and that trauma, being her first birth would be enough to kill such a strong woman. "Whylla" is a name that might be more than a red herring or maybe not. Switching babies seems to be something that could have been pulled off but not here. Jon is definitely a Stark either through Lyanna as mother or Ned or Brandon as a father. Ned never calls directly to Jon as "son" in AGoT and that is signifigant. I am paranoid of twists in this series after Aegon/Young Griff that it would not surprise me if GRRM has Jon as Brandon's boy with Ashara Dayne and Lyana might still be alive with Rheagar's kid (maybe he is Aegon/Young Griff and she is Septa Lemore), who the f knows. What about the Kingsguard? Did all of them die or was there a solution offered that included them as faking their deaths and taking the pince into exile to save him? Or did it all go down as the peices of this story have suggested they did. Until Howland Reed reveals himself, drinks a large stein of ale and finds someone to talk to, we may never know.

I had Lyanna on my list of suspects for Lemore's true identity. I ruled her out because Ned SAW her die. Ned's characterization is that he is so honorable that he has trouble lying out loud even when there are consequences for telling the truth. I believe Varys had trouble getting him to make his false confession, which was supposed to save his own and Sansa's lives. And Ned tells us he saw Lyanna die in his thoughts. Lyanna is dead, I am convinced.

[Screaming Knight]

Welcome KotCB. It seems you inadvertently fanned the flame of my curiosity concerning

Lyannas death. I'm changing my stance that people would have left Ned alone about his sisters death. She was too young and what happened to her too important. He had to have said rhaegar killed her and he found her in the tower already passed away after the fight with the KG. This would give Ned more cause to feel guilty for it really tarnishes the legacies of some really acclaimed knights... As im typing this I realize that none of this is in the white book so I'm wrong. I was going to apply this theory to a way jons parents could come to surface. Ned may have told the daynes, while he was returning dawn, of how Arthur died doing his duty and maybe told them the truth of what happened( if they didn't already know). And possibly send word to the wall at some point revealing to Jon his true parents.

[Lady Octarina]

I came to R + L = J a while back on my own, and I had to say that I actually felt disappointed over the prospect. I'm not 100% sold on "fire and ice" being the ultimate endgame of the plot, and I innately want to believe that whatever balance must be restored will not be done so through the properties of genetics (i.e. that Jon is in a unique position to accomplish whatever he does because of his bloodline). I know that free will versus prophesy/ bloodline is an ongoing theme of the series, and I suppose I would find it disappointing if everything suddenly resolved itself in Jon's arc because "he's blood of the dragon, and thus has both a huge advantage in destroying the Others and, oh, by the way, Westeros suddenly acknowledges him as having the best claim to the Throne" or something.

But it's not purely a matter of genetics, of him being a Targaryen. Daenerys is a Targ, and I just can't imagine her saving Westeros after the mess she did in Mereen. A prophecy can refer to anyone, really, since it's always so vague, but it can only be fulfilled if the person is competent enough for that, and I believe that's Jon's case. His experience in the NW was essential to whatever role he'll have to play afterwards, and I do think that will be as king, because the Others must be defeated, and him and Stannis are the only ones on leadership places who care about that. But no one likes Stannis. And people need to follow a leader into battle - who better than a king, and one as competent (at least compared to the other contestants) and not as hard to love (being Rhaegar's son will certainly gain people's support to his cause)?

You know before I joined this forum I never even suspected that Jon was anything other then Ned's bastard. Why?

Well because Ned was like the perfect person Honorable, True, and and Sincere...so for him to have a "Skeleton" in his closet makes him more human and I believe that is why eveyone accepted his story because They wanted to believe that he is not such a goody-goody but Now that I have had time to think and with the Kingguard being at the ToJ and Ned's promise to Lyanna before she died it really makes sense and another thing is Ned's adversion to killing off all the Targaryens...Dany and her baby...If he condoned killing them then he would have no excuse for protecting Jon the way he did ....I mean even if Jon wasn;t there I don't think he would have doen it still but I also believe that Jon being half Targ had an influence on his response to Robert about Killing them.

I agree with this, especially considering that killing off the last heirs to a dynasty is the best way to secure the new one. I mean, it was dangerous to keep them alive, especially after their alliance with the dothraki - that was the only time I actually felt Robert was right about anything. Ned was honorable, but I do think he was practical as well (even if slow, sometimes); the only reason strong enough to make him object to sheer rationality would be the knowledge that by doing that, he protected and justified (to himself, at least) keeping Jon alive.

The thing about Lyanna, She was so tough, a she wolf. i understand that giving birth, including a first child was dangerous for the mother in medeval society. After reading ADwD I was hit by the possibility that maybe she gave birth to twins and that trauma, being her first birth would be enough to kill such a strong woman. "Whylla" is a name that might be more than a red herring or maybe not. Switching babies seems to be something that could have been pulled off but not here. Jon is definitely a Stark either through Lyanna as mother or Ned or Brandon as a father. Ned never calls directly to Jon as "son" in AGoT and that is signifigant. I am paranoid of twists in this series after Aegon/Young Griff that it would not surprise me if GRRM has Jon as Brandon's boy with Ashara Dayne and Lyana might still be alive with Rheagar's kid (maybe he is Aegon/Young Griff and she is Septa Lemore), who the f knows. What about the Kingsguard? Did all of them die or was there a solution offered that included them as faking their deaths and taking the pince into exile to save him? Or did it all go down as the peices of this story have suggested they did. Until Howland Reed reveals himself, drinks a large stein of ale and finds someone to talk to, we may never know.

But you see, YG's appearance wasn't as much of a plot twist as it appears. Unless he truly is Aegon Targaryen, which less than 10% of this fandom believes. But if the main theory is correct and he's simply a Blackfyre used as a puppet by Illyrio and Varys, well... the signs that they were plotting something goes back to AGoT and remained through the books (but mainly AGoT, just like the signs of R+L=J). Not just their conversation in those tunnels at the Red Keep, but also Illyrio's obvious amusement at Viserys' innocence and confidence that he would regain the Iron Throne in Daenerys' first chapter, suggesting he never was that much into the Targ cause. So Young Griff is not a twist, just a new element to old signs that things weren't what they seemed.

[Ser Justin Scummy]

Im just gonna bumb away

[Noelle Snow]

*bump*

[Dragonfish]

Welcome KotCB. It seems you inadvertently fanned the flame of my curiosity concerning

Lyannas death. I'm changing my stance that people would have left Ned alone about his sisters death. She was too young and what happened to her too important. He had to have said rhaegar killed her and he found her in the tower already passed away after the fight with the KG. This would give Ned more cause to feel guilty for it really tarnishes the legacies of some really acclaimed knights... As im typing this I realize that none of this is in the white book so I'm wrong. I was going to apply this theory to a way jons parents could come to surface. Ned may have told the daynes, while he was returning dawn, of how Arthur died doing his duty and maybe told them the truth of what happened( if they didn't already know). And possibly send word to the wall at some point revealing to Jon his true parents.

I thought of this at one point as well, but then I remembered that Ned tells Robert in his first chapter that he was with Lyanna when she died. So whatever story he gave, it definitely didn't involve her dying before Ned got there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Someone with the mod powers please pin this, thanks.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Bumping to the top for pinning. 21 is still pinned but this isn't.

[Sasha Steelsong]

How did Barristan know? He had gone over to Robert's side around the time of the ToJ fight.

In one of the conversations with Dany (I believe in ADWD but it could be SOS) Barristan talks of Rheagar's love for his Lady Lyanna and how thousands died for it. I think Barristan definitely knew there was a romance between them (v.s. the hostage/rape theory that seems to be the majority opinion) but not necessarily that a child resulted from it.

[Screaming Knight]

I thought of this at one point as well, but then I remembered that Ned tells Robert in his first chapter that he was with Lyanna when she died. So whatever story he gave, it definitely didn't involve her dying before Ned got there.

I see. Robert is under the assumption Lyanna was raped and murdered by rhaegar I suppose. I guess Ned probably gave Robert the information he felt he deserved and him being king protected Ned from any outside suspicions since Robert was willing to buy it and his judgement was so clouded by love and pride that he would see that as fact before what we presume to be the truth. I'll stop my complaining now.