R+L=J v.22

[Amy Walker Gore]

If Jon Snow is R+L, then he would be 3rd in line at this pt. First would be Griff, then Dany, then Jon. If they skipped over Dany for being a girl, then he would be second, I don't think it maters if he is legit or not. Besides, Jon has chosen the wall more then once over other things, I just can't see him chosing to be king and leaving the wall. I think Jon Snow is a lot like Maester Aamon and would turn it down.

[Dragonfish]

As Rhaegar's second son, Jon would be second in line for the throne, behind Aegon and before Dany (assuming he is legitimate, of course).

Though personally, I think Aegon is fake, which would make Jon first in line.

[Lady Octarina]

If Jon Snow is R+L, then he would be 3rd in line at this pt. First would be Griff, then Dany, then Jon. If they skipped over Dany for being a girl, then he would be second, I don't think it maters if he is legit or not. Besides, Jon has chosen the wall more then once over other things, I just can't see him chosing to be king and leaving the wall. I think Jon Snow is a lot like Maester Aamon and would turn it down.

I think their situations are very different. When Aemon was to become king the realm wasn't in the middle of a war, or about to experience an invasion from the Others and their minions. Besides, there were other people (with a good claim) to take the throne, people who he loved and in whom he trusted, like Egg. In Jon's case, he is the first in line and the others with a claim would either hardly be accepted (Stannis, the Martells), or are as crazy as old Aerys (Daenerys). I don't think he will have much of a choice if he truly wishes to protect the kingdom (as even his vow to the NW suggests).

[Noelle Snow]

*bump*

I think the mods are sleeping. lol

[Screaming Knight]

I think their situations are very different. When Aemon was to become king the realm wasn't in the middle of a war, or about to experience an invasion from the Others and their minions. Besides, there were other people (with a good claim) to take the throne, people who he loved and in whom he trusted, like Egg. In Jon's case, he is the first in line and the others with a claim would either hardly be accepted (Stannis, the Martells), or are as crazy as old Aerys (Daenerys). I don't think he will have much of a choice if he truly wishes to protect the kingdom (as even his vow to the NW suggests).

Jon should claim the throne, take castle black as his seat and the royal army would be the nights watch. Many northerners would rally to his cause if he could convince them of his dual citizenship, if you will ( after having to be convinced of this himself first ). Install stannis warden of the south, aegon of the west, and dany of the east. Havent exactly mapped out when they would all meet and decide on this yet. Of course there would be a war that would ensue. After the lannisters suspect the tyrells for kevans murder, they will be weakened and vulnerable and either bend the knee or be extinguished. This would provide Jon with the money and resources to properly prepare for the war with the others.

ETA: Dorne will play their part by waging war against both the Lannisters and tyrells, with help from the free cities.

[Ygrain]

*bump*

[Serie]

would it be extremely difficult to pin this thread please, please dear mods?????

[Val the Wildling Princess]

*bump* before it gets lost in the abyss of the forum :D

[butterbumps!]

But it's not purely a matter of genetics, of him being a Targaryen. Daenerys is a Targ, and I just can't imagine her saving Westeros after the mess she did in Mereen. A prophecy can refer to anyone, really, since it's always so vague, but it can only be fulfilled if the person is competent enough for that, and I believe that's Jon's case. His experience in the NW was essential to whatever role he'll have to play afterwards, and I do think that will be as king, because the Others must be defeated, and him and Stannis are the only ones on leadership places who care about that. But no one likes Stannis. And people need to follow a leader into battle - who better than a king, and one as competent (at least compared to the other contestants) and not as hard to love (being Rhaegar's son will certainly gain people's support to his cause)?

I actually like your post and agree with almost everything. I just kind of wanted to air my own discomfort with the implications of R+L=J. Part of that is because I don't really want to see the Targ dynasty restored, nor particularly the Iron Throne still in play. The other part is that I really only see Jon as a Stark, and I think he does as well. I can't imagine him being happy about finding out that he's a Targ, even if it puts him in a position of legitimacy for power, and given what I believe about his character, I can't see him wanting to accept recognition as Rhaegar's son. So, I think what I like about R+L=J is (my hope) that when Jon finds this out, he takes that secret to his grave. A reversal of the archetypal "boy of uncertain parentage who finds out he's really a king and the discovery gives him new identity and strength."

[The Butler of Tarth]

My hopes for R+L=J are as follows:

1. It's not true and Jon's mother is really Ashara Dayne. (it won't happen but one can still have hope)

2. If it is true I hope that noone ever finds out and Jon lives out his days thinking he's a Stark.

3. If people do find out hopefully Jon will just dismiss this and pretend he never heard of it.

The ending I most dread would be Jon&Dany hooking up and living together as king and queen happily ever after.

[Charles Stuart]

The amount of evidence in the first book for Jon being Rhaegar's son has me convinced of it. Why else would the KG be at the tower?

I wouldnt be surprised if varys knew about it. He knows practically everything else there is to know after all.

[Merman of Manderly]

WHY DID HE HAVE TO DIE?? HE KNEW THE TRUTH!!

[Ygrain]

The amount of evidence in the first book for Jon being Rhaegar's son has me convinced of it. Why else would the KG be at the tower?

I wouldnt be surprised if varys knew about it. He knows practically everything else there is to know after all.

Actually, I would - while the guy appears next to omniscient in KL, where he has his seat and a thousand means to an end, he cannot know every single detail that happened outside KL.

[Alia of the knife]

I actually like your post and agree with almost everything. I just kind of wanted to air my own discomfort with the implications of R+L=J. Part of that is because I don't really want to see the Targ dynasty restored, nor particularly the Iron Throne still in play. The other part is that I really only see Jon as a Stark, and I think he does as well. I can't imagine him being happy about finding out that he's a Targ, even if it puts him in a position of legitimacy for power, and given what I believe about his character, I can't see him wanting to accept recognition as Rhaegar's son. So, I think what I like about R+L=J is (my hope) that when Jon finds this out, he takes that secret to his grave. A reversal of the archetypal "boy of uncertain parentage who finds out he's really a king and the discovery gives him new identity and strength."

Agreed as well, but the only wrench in this is that whatever Jons fate is in the North, his idenity will be found out, because if his parents married in front of a Weirwood tree, (going back to the post you originally referenced by TZE), that will be signifigant to his legitimacy as the true King of the North in the eyes of the old Gods, as opposed to Neds children born of a marriage in fealty to the gods of the seven, making Jon the only legitimate Stark (ironically), giving him their annointing.

He's still a Stark, but born of Lyanna, and it probably doesnt' hurt that his Father was Rhaegar, though that is not as signifigant to the Northerners as it is to everyone else since I suspect they've always still thought of the Starks as their Kings rather than the Targaryens.

A couple of other points.

(At this juncture, only an Aegon could truly reunify the Kingdoms, since Jon is unlikely to want to be a King, and as Aegons Brother, Jon could get the Northerners to back him, especially if Jon offered his cousins, Sansa, or Arya as Aegons bride, uniting the two Kingdoms in marriage).

But, I also agree that if Jon does end up as King of the entire Seven Kingdoms, it will be because he no longer has a choice as Aegon will not likely survive.

(IMO, I tend to think that Aegon is a pretender, or a Blackfyre, and Bloodraven, ever the trueborn Targaryen loyalist knows it, and thats why his reappearance in this story is signifigant).

[zzzNitro]

WHY DID HE HAVE TO DIE?? HE KNEW THE TRUTH!!

That is literally an epic troll.

That said, I think that the "how" in Jon's surival/revival will determine the story, I like to think that he survives the attack of his brothers and after his wounds heal he "rises harder, stronger" but in a more political way, giving him the truth about governing(sp?) and the obvious dark side of the game of thrones, making his story line going from emo-bastard to pragmatical lord to influential KitN/KotSK. The other options don't really interest me as much since we already have a fire resurrection(two actually) and a wight that's not a complete zombie and fake deaths all over the world.

Crackpot theory time: what if the song of ice and fire is about Coldhands and UnCat? Maybe we all got it wrong and its REALLY about ice and fire revivals?

[Lady Octarina]

I actually like your post and agree with almost everything. I just kind of wanted to air my own discomfort with the implications of R+L=J. Part of that is because I don't really want to see the Targ dynasty restored, nor particularly the Iron Throne still in play. The other part is that I really only see Jon as a Stark, and I think he does as well. I can't imagine him being happy about finding out that he's a Targ, even if it puts him in a position of legitimacy for power, and given what I believe about his character, I can't see him wanting to accept recognition as Rhaegar's son. So, I think what I like about R+L=J is (my hope) that when Jon finds this out, he takes that secret to his grave. A reversal of the archetypal "boy of uncertain parentage who finds out he's really a king and the discovery gives him new identity and strength."

But that's the thing, he doesn't have to be happy about it. It will give him legitimacy but he never wanted the throne. He swore in his vow he would protect the realm of men or sth like that; if becoming a king is the best way to do that and R+L=J would give him the legitimacy he needs to defeat the Others, well... so be it. I don't think for a moment he would reject that, even if that means he'll be mostly miserable for the rest of his life. None of these characters is supposed to be happy after all xD

I personally only want Westeros to remain one kingdom if Jon's to sit on the throne (I would add Stannis, but I don't think he has any chance of doing that). And I really can't imagine anyone else sitting on it if the realm is to have any kind of stability by the end of these books. Otherwise, I'd rather have 7Kingdoms once more (or 5, 3, whatever).

Edit (sorry about that, I forgot to answer your post >.<)

Jon should claim the throne, take castle black as his seat and the royal army would be the nights watch. Many northerners would rally to his cause if he could convince them of his dual citizenship, if you will ( after having to be convinced of this himself first ). Install stannis warden of the south, aegon of the west, and dany of the east. Havent exactly mapped out when they would all meet and decide on this yet. Of course there would be a war that would ensue. After the lannisters suspect the tyrells for kevans murder, they will be weakened and vulnerable and either bend the knee or be extinguished. This would provide Jon with the money and resources to properly prepare for the war with the others.

ETA: Dorne will play their part by waging war against both the Lannisters and tyrells, with help from the free cities.

I do like the idea of his placing his seat on Castle Back and having the Crows as his guard, only two problems:

1 - that would only work it he is to become king of the North, not the whole of Westeros, but even then it could be a problem because it's not a central place.

2 - that would subvert all the Night's Watch stands for, which would only mean another Julius Caesar scene...

Stannis as ne of his warden, I can see that happening. Not Aegon, because I think he might not like to learn he is a Blackfyre, not a Targ, and end up dying for that; and Daenerys, too, I think she'll either die or return to Essos and try to undo the mess she left behind. But Tyrion as warden of the westerlands and the Reach, that could happen.

[Screaming Knight]

But that's the thing, he doesn't have to be happy about it. It will give him legitimacy but he never wanted the throne. He swore in his vow he would protect the realm of men or sth like that; if becoming a king is the best way to do that and R+L=J would give him the legitimacy he needs to defeat the Others, well... so be it. I don't think for a moment he would reject that, even if that means he'll be mostly miserable for the rest of his life. None of these characters is supposed to be happy after all xD

I personally only want Westeros to remain one kingdom if Jon's to sit on the throne (I would add Stannis, but I don't think he has any chance of doing that). And I really can't imagine anyone else sitting on it if the realm is to have any kind of stability by the end of these books. Otherwise, I'd rather have 7Kingdoms once more (or 5, 3, whatever).

Edit (sorry about that, I forgot to answer your post >.<)

I do like the idea of his placing his seat on Castle Back and having the Crows as his guard, only two problems:

1 - that would only work it he is to become king of the North, not the whole of Westeros, but even then it could be a problem because it's not a central place.

2 - that would subvert all the Night's Watch stands for, which would only mean another Julius Caesar scene...

Stannis as ne of his warden, I can see that happening. Not Aegon, because I think he might not like to learn he is a Blackfyre, not a Targ, and end up dying for that; and Daenerys, too, I think she'll either die or return to Essos and try to undo the mess she left behind. But Tyrion as warden of the westerlands and the Reach, that could happen.

Can't believe I didnt think of tyrion. I love that idea. I think with trustworthy wardens and council he

[Screaming Knight]

But that's the thing, he doesn't have to be happy about it. It will give him legitimacy but he never wanted the throne. He swore in his vow he would protect the realm of men or sth like that; if becoming a king is the best way to do that and R+L=J would give him the legitimacy he needs to defeat the Others, well... so be it. I don't think for a moment he would reject that, even if that means he'll be mostly miserable for the rest of his life. None of these characters is supposed to be happy after all xD

I personally only want Westeros to remain one kingdom if Jon's to sit on the throne (I would add Stannis, but I don't think he has any chance of doing that). And I really can't imagine anyone else sitting on it if the realm is to have any kind of stability by the end of these books. Otherwise, I'd rather have 7Kingdoms once more (or 5, 3, whatever).

Edit (sorry about that, I forgot to answer your post >.<)

I do like the idea of his placing his seat on Castle Back and having the Crows as his guard, only two problems:

1 - that would only work it he is to become king of the North, not the whole of Westeros, but even then it could be a problem because it's not a central place.

2 - that would subvert all the Night's Watch stands for, which would only mean another Julius Caesar scene...

Stannis as ne of his warden, I can see that happening. Not Aegon, because I think he might not like to learn he is a Blackfyre, not a Targ, and end up dying for that; and Daenerys, too, I think she'll either die or return to Essos and try to undo the mess she left behind. But Tyrion as warden of the westerlands and the Reach, that could happen.

Can't believe I didnt think of tyrion. I love that idea. I think with trustworthy wardens and council he could effectively rule from the wall. He would possible have to expand the NW territory and build a Capitol building( the black keep). Also if he and bran could somehow cross paths, warging would be a very effective way to stretch their presence. And hey, he's king, he could still be a sworn brother while traveling the kingdoms installing his form of power and politics. And with money and resources he could adapt the rules of the NW to make it more desirable and update and improve the living conditions.

[Hoster Blackwood]

Just a funny thought - sorry if it has been talk about - I'm bit of af newbie in here...

If Ashara Dayne is his mother, would that make Jon a choice as Sword of the Morning (or is it only the male line?) and if - would he choose Dawn instead of Longclaw? Now we don't know if Dawn is as Other-killing as valyrian steel, do we?

What do you think?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just a funny thought - sorry if it has been talk about - I'm bit of af newbie in here...

If Ashara Dayne is his mother, would that make Jon a choice as Sword of the Morning (or is it only the male line?) and if - would he choose Dawn instead of Longclaw? Now we don't know if Dawn is as Other-killing as valyrian steel, do we?

What do you think?

I 100% do not think that Ashara is Jon's mother, but if she was, I don't see why he couldn't become Sword of the Morning. Dawn is passed down based on merit (though exactly how it's earned and/or who decides who gets it remain to be seen), not straight hereditary lines.