Jump to content

Daenerys the Cheater


Blue-eyed Onion

Recommended Posts

You sneer at the Astapori for getting what they had coming for underestimating a woman. Did Dany get what she deserved for underestimating Mirri and the Green Grace?

Dany didn't underestimate them so much as she didn't recognize them as enemies at all ... especially Mirri. Okay, so ... we've established then that she's not the too-perfect, infallible Mary Sue that Dany haters seem so frequently determined to paint her as being.

I concede this point!

Officially we're there to bring people "freedom," right? How is that different from Dany?

Because that's not really why we're there at all, and once again, please stop trying to turn this into a discussion of real life politics. This is the last time I'm going to reply to such an attempt at all; further efforts will be ignored.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because that's not really why we're there at all, and once again, please stop trying to turn this into a discussion of real life politics. This is the last time I'm going to reply to such an attempt at all; further efforts will be ignored.

And Dany was really in Meereen to "practice" being a ruler. I just think it's hypocritical to disapprove of the U.S. military but not Dany. I think politics are pertinent to a discussion when you make exceptions for one instance of ill-conceived occupation but not another. Feel free to ignore me if you're unable to reconcile that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, the adhesive used for post-its was developed by someone with a PhD in organic chemistry. He worked at 3M, leading his own research team. Disappointed with the fact that few, or possibly no one, at the company seemed to find it a very interesting or useful invention, he began heavily pushing the fruits of his research in various seminars held for others within the company.

The adhesive was invented by Spencer Silver, but it was Arthur Fry, who expressly did not invent it, who found its useful application. Silver could not think of one.

If you're going to pick nits, at least make sure you actually know your facts.

And Liquid Paper, or "white-out," was invented by a typist.

Point is, these are both relatively simple inventions (maybe not the adhesive in the case of Post-It notes, but certainly the concept involved otherwise) that anyone could have thought of, that you could tell yourself you could easily have come up with.

Except you didn't. And for that matter, neither did the inventor of the adhesive itself.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, but neither do I understand the relevance of your analogy

I hope I've helped you to grasp it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Dany was really in Meereen to "practice" being a ruler.

No ... she was really in Mereen because she didn't want to make the same mistakes that she did in leaving previous cities behind. "I gave Astapor a butcher king." She wound up staying even when she might have been better served by leaving because she didn't want to just abandon her children.

Can you cite one, even just one passage in any book wherein she says, even to herself, that she's just in Mereen to practice ruling?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The adhesive was invented by Spencer Silver, but it was Arthur Fry, who expressly did not invent it, who found its useful application. Silver could not think of one.

If you're going to pick nits, at least make sure you actually know your facts.

Well, I'm not sure that Silver "could not think of one," but his job was to invent stuff, while Art Fry's job was to take useful inventions and make them into marketable products. Anyways, I was trying to be cute... sorry.

What I meant is that all of those "I could have done that --- but you didn't" expressions are useless. Most of the time someone thinks they could have done "it," that "it" turns out to be more complex than it seemed. So, the post-it itself seems like a no-brainer, but it really depends on the adhesive being there --- that was the difficult part. Had the adhesive been around forever, occurring naturally say, we wouldn't have had to wait around until Arthur Fry looked at it until post-its or something very similar was invented.

---

And with that in mind: Since the Unsullied have been around for so long, it beggars belief that no one had ever tried to attack Astapor with an army, even partially, consisting of Unsullied, thus leading to the slavers of Astapor teaching their eunuch slaves that Astapor is off limits. In fact, it beggars belief that they never did that regardless of any previous attacks involving the Unsullied.

The last paragraph is the point I wanted to make, lets drop the post-its... :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And with that in mind: Since the Unsullied have been around for so long, it beggars belief that no one had ever tried to attack Astapor with an army, even partially, consisting of Unsullied, thus leading to the slavers of Astapor teaching their eunuch slaves that Astapor is off limits. In fact, it beggars belief that they never did that regardless of any previous attacks involving the Unsullied.

The last paragraph is the point I wanted to make, lets drop the post-its... :unsure:

No one had ever offered a dragon for Unsullied before. That was the only reason the slave masters allowed her to buy all the Unsullied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

nd with that in mind: Since the Unsullied have been around for so long, it beggars belief that no one had ever tried to attack Astapor with an army, even partially, consisting of Unsullied, thus leading to the slavers of Astapor teaching their eunuch slaves that Astapor is off limits. In fact, it beggars belief that they never did that regardless of any previous attacks involving the Unsullied.

You have to look at Astapor within the context of its culture and the cultures of the surrounding peoples and lands. If you just put Astapor in a vacuum, you might have a point, but you have to remember that no one anywhere near it has any motivation (certainly not abolition of slavery!) to really attack it until Daenerys comes along. Complacency happens, and it's a killer.

Not only that, but the kind of scenario in question was very specific and unlikely.

How many people would ever have the resources to buy the entire city's stock of Unsullied?

Of those, how many would dare throw the dice on what's basically a massive game of Russian Roulette, especially given they have so much already (if they can afford to just up and buy a whole city's worth of Unsullied!) ... and therefore so much to lose against a relatively paltry gain?

Add to that Dany seemingly being unable to understand their language (due to her ruse), being just a soft, "dumb" little girl ... add in their own blinding greed at the mere thought of having one of the world's only three dragons (that's like owning a modern bomber and all the fuel and bombs you'd ever need for it ... in medieval times!), and so on ... and really, it's not that hard to see how they wouldn't see this coming.

Remember, they didn't enjoy the benefit of hindsight or knowledge of the fact that Dany was playing dumb with them the whole time like you did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one had ever offered a dragon for Unsullied before. That was the only reason the slave masters allowed her to buy all the Unsullied.

I have no problem with believing that no one ever tried, or were allowed, to buy that many Unsullied at once. But the quoted part does not make mention of "dragons" or "all the Unsullied."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have to look at Astapor within the context of its culture and the cultures of the surrounding peoples and lands. If you just put Astapor in a vacuum, you might have a point, but you have to remember that no one anywhere near it has any motivation (certainly not abolition of slavery!) to really attack it until Daenerys comes along. Complacency happens, and it's a killer.

Not only that, but the kind of scenario in question was very specific and unlikely.

Yes, it's very unlikely. The soldiers that never disobey have not been told to never attack their original masters. Something which depends on the area having been the slaver hub forever, and therefore never having been attacked by people who buy slaves.

It's as unlikely as the Starks having ruled for 8000 years, with their kings having lived for hundreds of years, even knighting their champions before knighthood itself existed.

The latter is questioned in-text, but the former is apparently no big thing. Look, I have no problem with Dany fooling the Good Masters within the given context. I just find the context itself a bit difficult to swallow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it's very unlikely. The soldiers that never disobey have not been told to never attack their original masters. Something which depends on the area having been the slaver hub forever, and therefore never having been attacked by people who buy slaves.

It's as unlikely as the Starks having ruled for 8000 years, with their kings having lived for hundreds of years, even knighting their champions before knighthood itself existed.

The latter is questioned in-text, but the former is apparently no big thing. Look, I have no problem with Dany fooling the Good Masters within the given context. I just find the context itself a bit difficult to swallow.

If ever anyone had tried it before, the slavers would have other Unsullied to protect them remember?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it's very unlikely. The soldiers that never disobey have not been told to never attack their original masters. Something which depends on the area having been the slaver hub forever, and therefore never having been attacked by people who buy slaves.

It's as unlikely as the Starks having ruled for 8000 years, with their kings having lived for hundreds of years, even knighting their champions before knighthood itself existed.

The latter is questioned in-text, but the former is apparently no big thing. Look, I have no problem with Dany fooling the Good Masters within the given context. I just find the context itself a bit difficult to swallow.

Well, I'll tell you what: I'll swallow Tyrion not being instantly slaughtered out of hand the first time he rode into battle, and you can swallow this scenario. And together we'll admit that heroic characters sometimes get to benefit from a little suspension of disbelief, and Daenerys is not required to be held to an entirely different standard from every single other character in the books in this regard.

Sound fair?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If ever anyone had tried it before, the slavers would have other Unsullied to protect them remember?

Yes, I do remember. And as I've said before, after they'd used their Unsullied within the walls to defeat the Unsullied outside the walls, they would tell those left within that never may you, or any future Unsullied we train, attack the Good Masters of Astapor, your original masters.

Well, I tell you what: I'll swallow Tyrion not being instantly slaughtered out of hand the first time he rode into battle, and you can swallow this scenario. And together we'll admit that heroic characters sometimes get to benefit from a little suspension of disbelief, and Daenerys is not required to be held to an entirely different standard from every single other character in the books in this regard.

Sound fair?

I personally have a difficult time swallowing both of Tyrion's battle escapades. Except for the chopping of the nose, they have no bearing on his story, however. Dany's entire arc in ADWD depends on her unlikely situation.

I mean, I've certainly moved on from that moment (which was more WTF than OMG for me) and kept reading and enjoying the books. To keep this, and my previous posts, on topic, I guess it's just that it did feel like a bit of a... cheat. :ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I'll tell you what: I'll swallow Tyrion not being instantly slaughtered out of hand the first time he rode into battle, and you can swallow this scenario. And together we'll admit that heroic characters sometimes get to benefit from a little suspension of disbelief, and Daenerys is not required to be held to an entirely different standard from every single other character in the books in this regard.

Sound fair?

It's is extremely fair, especially when we consider nothing is certain so far, no character is safe. Meaning: Daenerys might have been extremely lucky in many cases, especially in ASoS, but that doesn't mean her luck will continue, or aid her gain the Iron Throne and keep it, along with whatever she may desire. ADwD shows the moment that luck begins to fail, the moment she can't count on it anymore and has to make as wise decisions as possible, otherwise she's doomed. ADwD, then, is the turning point, one way or the other: it can either be seen as the moment she relies on her cunning instead of pure chance and actually becomes a mature ruler and "winner" in the end, or as the moment she proves to be as incompetent as many here believe she actually is and begins her descent to Targ-doom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dany's story continues to surprise me by how much is handed to her and how it all goes to shit.

Dothraki Horde? She loses it. Dragons? Utilized once to free a city before she chains them and loses control of them. City she freed? Descends into chaos. Get ONE loyal man who forsakes the opportunity to return home to serve you? Exile him because you childishly proclaim "he should admit he is wrong". Becomes Queen of Mereen? Everybody hates her. Awesome slave army? Guerilla warfare is killing it off.

Robb Stark would have done better than her. Hell, Sansa Stark would have done better than her. Given her track record, Dany would have lost at the Whispering Wood, WITH FULL GROWN DRAGONS. Dany's forces will win the battle precisely because she IS NOT there. Now I am beginning to see where the "Martin is saying women can't rule" argument comes from (I still don't agree with it because Catelyn showed competency on multiple occasions).

http://i.imgur.com/Nq9VF.jpg

On another note, does anyone have any thoughts of the HOTU vision where Dany departs as a throng yells "MOTHER!" (when Roy Dotrice narrated that scene, it was incredible).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it's very unlikely. The soldiers that never disobey have not been told to never attack their original masters. Something which depends on the area having been the slaver hub forever, and therefore never having been attacked by people who buy slaves.

It's as unlikely as the Starks having ruled for 8000 years, with their kings having lived for hundreds of years, even knighting their champions before knighthood itself existed.

The latter is questioned in-text, but the former is apparently no big thing. Look, I have no problem with Dany fooling the Good Masters within the given context. I just find the context itself a bit difficult to swallow.

The reason for this is simple, Unsullied were never sold in such a quantity before that the Masters were defenseless if the buyers want to hurt them, Dany literally took everyone.Not to mention that the Masters were salivating and probably forgot any protocols they had. Add to that the fact that they are meant to be totally loyal, that's their main selling point, and it makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Handed to her" ... "Sansa Stark would have done better" ...

Sometimes, I feel like I'm reading a different series of books from some of the other posters on these forums. I really do.

It's no exaggeration to say that the way they seem to remember the events of the series bears no more than the most vague, passing, twisted resemblance to what I read. It is, it really is ... it's as if I stumbled onto a forum filled with people who actually have been reading different books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Handed to her" ... "Sansa Stark would have done better" ...

Sometimes, I feel like I'm reading a different series of books from some of the other posters on these forums. I really do.

It's no exaggeration to say that the way they seem to remember the events of the series bears no more than the most vague, passing, twisted resemblance to what I read. It is, it really is ... it's as if I stumbled onto a forum filled with people who actually have been reading different books.

"handed to her" by the author. Dragon eggs? Convenient.

The second statement was a joke, and probably untrue given the two characters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I completely agree. For instance, Robb is my favorite character. But he fucked up, and he died for it.

Jon's my second favorite. In order to survive, he had to grow up years beyond his age, make decisions that hurt him and people around him, and become quite morally grey. Hell, by the end of ADWD it's clear that all of that still isn't guaranteeing his life. It just pisses me off. I watch my favorite characters suffer, and I deal with it because the realism of it is why I love ASOIAF so much. Dany's entire storyline just cheapens it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here here! I absolutely cannot stand Dany's self entitlement attitude, nor the fact that everything gets handed to her without much effort on her part. She's the Goku of the Westeros universe. Characters that are actually fighting for noble and heroic deeds, such as Robb, trying to avenge his father and free the north, has to deal with reality and that things aren't easy and people can't be trusted. Dany gets to continue to act like a spoiled rotten teenage girl with entitlement issues, and have all these men that just flock to her wih undying love and loyalty, protect her from all the evils of the world. Spits to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...