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Werthead

The Lands of Ice and Fire: a new map book out in Oct 2012

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That part of Westeros was in desperate need of magnification, with all the towns and inns and what not. Nice.

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One issue I've always had with GRRM's geography is that too many of the geographic names for regions/features are premised on how'd they'd look from way up in the air...or more accurately, how they'd look from the POV of someone inventing a map.

And dragons aren't the answer, for several reasons (some of the names pre-date the Targs, the height you'd have to be would make breathing a serious issue), etc.

You see it a lot in invented maps: people accidentally think way too much from that POV when naming features, whereas most features which are named for their similarity to something else are done from the perspective of the ground.

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There were folks who could look through the eyes of birds and so on, once, FWIW. Other than the God's Eye, though, what are we referring to as examples of names that don't make sense without an aerial view?

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There were folks who could look through the eyes of birds and so on, once, FWIW. Other than the God's Eye, though, what are we referring to as examples of names that don't make sense without an aerial view?

The Fingers, the Bite, the Neck, the Broken Arm, the Trident, Massy's Hook, Flint's Finger, the God's Eye you mention, etc.

I'm not even sure the eyes of birds would account for it; For one thing, normally not high enough...nor stable enough. But more because birds don't see the way we do; their eyesight works differently; they don't see edges and forms the same...they see movement better, but they don't account for perspective when it comes to shapes in the way we do.

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The Fingers, the Bite, the Neck, the Broken Arm, the Trident, Massy's Hook, Flint's Finger, the God's Eye you mention, etc.

I'm not even sure the eyes of birds would account for it; For one thing, normally not high enough...nor stable enough. But more because birds don't see the way we do; their eyesight works differently; they don't see edges and forms the same...they see movement better, but they don't account for perspective when it comes to shapes in the way we do.

I believe people gave those names after looking at those places on the map and seeing the resemblance. You don't need to fly to make a good and accurate map.

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The presence of 'Samyriana' is interesting, not to mention confusing. 'Shamyriana' is a city mentioned in AGoT, whilst 'Samyrian' appeared on the HBO map, located on the shores of the Jade Sea. The Jade Sea now seems to have been moved to the south, with Samyriana located roughly where 'Samyrian' is on the HBO map, but now with a massive lowland desert to its east.

Interesting. And potentially confusing.

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I believe people gave those names after looking at those places on the map and seeing the resemblance. You don't need to fly to make a good and accurate map.

Well, 2 points:

1) It doesn't really work like that in real life. Places take on names long before cartography catches up, and again aren't as commonly known/available. Maps themselves weren't widely distributed. For example, the most striking real-life example would probably be the degree to which the Italian Penninsula resembles a leg/boot, and yet we don't really ever hear about that happening in historical times. It was Italy, not the Boot or the Leg or w/e.

But we do hear a lot of examples of places being named based on how they resembled something from eye-level; the Pillars of Hercules, the Iron Gate, the Wash, etc. That's how people thought; cartographers followed practices in place, they didn't reorganize (barring examples of 'discovery' and then it was almost always naming somewhere after themselves or a person of significance, not map-persective on shape). Because mapmakers themselves saw from eye level long before they saw from a cartographers perspective.

2) The quality of mapmaking depends on what you mean, and when. Prior to relatively recent advancements in nautical technology, maps tended to conform with ancient map making traditions, and would seem to us more symbolic than realistic. Check out an example of Mappa Mundi for illustrations...or Med scroll maps, which drew the known world as a loooooooong narrow enclosure around the Mediterranean; think of a local perspective along a river for an illustration of the concept. And the maps we perceive as more 'accurate' weren't necessarily seen that way in their times; the most used/known maps were more like travel itineraries; ie, would map things conceptually around specific journeys, trade routes or naval passages; not around what the world looked like from the air.

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Im looking at a lot of the names of these places and I'm trying to get a grasp of the languages used for the region.

Nothing in the far east seems to be High Valyrian, Dothraki or any other language that we have identified with in Essos

Names like Yeng Ma are very interesting

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Yes, I noted the Samyriana -> Shamyriana issue, but apparently a little too late for it to be corrected. I suspect they may opt to adjust future editions of AGoT, instead, to make it align with Samyriana.

There are in fact some inconsistencies in descriptions for Braavos between AFfC and ADwD that will likely be dealt with by adjusting future AFfC editions, I've been told.

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The Fingers, the Bite, the Neck, the Broken Arm, the Trident, Massy's Hook, Flint's Finger, the God's Eye you mention, etc.

I'm not sure that's that weird, since in the real world we've got plenty of similar ones: cape spear (Canada), cape of the three forks (Morocco), cape of the grey nose (France), Sleepy Eye Lake (Minnesota),...

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I preordered this at amazon.co.uk, then got an email saying it'll probably ship on the 9th and arrive the 12th. Which is pretty lame. So I'll just go to town I guess and buy it......they'll have this in Waterstones, right? Surely.

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I checked my preorder and it still says October 30, but it also says it hasn't shipped yet, so who knows when it will come.

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Copies are already shipping from Amazon.

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UK though, so it's not supposed to be out till the 8th anyway. Might try again later in the week and see if they're still saying the 12th, phooey to going all weekend without it.

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Getting it tomorrow at Barnes N Noble!

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Got email conformation from amazon UK saying no, I won't get it on the 8th. So bookshops all the way. Strange oversight from amazon there.

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Waterstones told me the RRP is £34.99, but they'll be discounting it by an 'unknown amount' on release day. The Amazon cost is only £19.99, but they won't ship until after release. Once you start whacking on next-day delivery, the costs at Amazon go up to £29.99. The extra fiver might be worth the convenience of just getting it from the shop (especially since I have been stockpiling points on my Waterstones card).

Also, as far as they know, there is no embargo on it, so it might well be on the shelves on the 5th, if not the end of this week.

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