Sooooo ... The Starks?

[The Last Direwolf]

The Starks, basically, are completely and utterly amazing.

I love how at the start, they're really just happy and together at Winterfell... then the King comes calling and all that gets f***ed up. Arya's off in Braavos as a grubby street urchin, Sansa's captive in Kings Landing, Robb's leading an army south, Jon's on the Wall and Bran's forced to flee from the Greyjoy invasion. What makes the Starks so great is their strength. Even when their family looks like it's wiped out, they stay strong and continue, despite all the odds, against cruel boy kings, invading men, wildlings and bands of sadistic soldiers.

And what makes the Starks even better is how they're about to rise out of the ashes and kick some Lannister butt. Sansa has the men of the Vale behind her, Bran has cool magic powers, Arya's a badass assassin and Rickon's about to sweep through the North with an army of savages! Before you know it,, the Riverlords and the Northmen will be rising for the Stark kids.

Never underestimate the North - we remember. :cool4:

EDIT: Robb is also extremely hot. :wub:

[Patchface12]

Sansa can't marry Harry the Heir as she is already married to Tyrion. Only a high septon can annul the marriage.

Everyone thinks Tyrion killed his nephew and everyone knows he killed his father. An unconsummated marriage with a kinslayer can easily be annulled.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

the most amazing thing bout the starks is that not only do they stay strong but they all believe they are the LAST stark ... sansa and arya missing, bran and rikon "dead" ... makes it harder to see them coming together wen der not looking for each other (except for jon, but thats the fake arya) ... i agree with the idea that NW-Braavos trade brings arya to jon, would also suggest cold hands brings bran back (longshot i know but i desperately want bran back) ... davos collects rikon, raises the north, sansa hears and eventually joins in (hopefully after summit "happens" to little finger) ... jon leaves the watch as they clearly don't want him (NW crumbles and Others attack) ... i like this because rather than 1 omnipotent hero, we have an alliance of rikon setting up the alliances (with manderly), sansa adding troops from the vale, bran a badass mofo warg/greenseer/authority on CoTF and Others and Jon military badass, Azor Ahai, commander of armies and Stark in winterfell (thanks to robbs will) ... the reason i want bran back so much is i believe he is the perfect Lord of Winterfell if it turns out R+L=J ... plus i love magic :D

[joe stark]

i think that stannis could also make a deal with asha that she may lead the iron born if she declares for stannis. that would give stannis what the might of the north which im going with might contain 40 thousand? im guessing theirs 20 thousand northen troops right now after bolton is destoryed their will be 15k? with stannis 5k southern troops and the 10k wildings 30k? then with skagos another 10k?=40k troops. then we cant forget what remains of house tully after the north conquers frey and if you add house tully with ironborn what another 10k? putting it at around 50k troops and then theirs the vale and the 20-30k sellswords stannis is hiring in the next book so they have a very strong army. i think that when they arrive at moat caulin jon will learn that R+L=J then they will declare for him even stannis. plus i think bran might stay at the wall with the COTF.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

i was wondering that, would stannous declare for Jon if R+L=J? would be ironic for him to meet someone who actually has a better claim :P question though, assuming it comes to a ware between Stannis+starks+vale+riverlands+ironborn+sellswords vs Aegon+Golden-company+storm-lords+tyrells+dorne, and each side has a dragon (dunno where daenerys will fall in, my guess is with Jon), WHO HAS THE STRONGEST CLAIM?? is it Jon or Aegon who is Rhaegars first son? i believe both have a stronger claim than daenerys, but am unsure who is top of the pile? :dunno:

[Winter's Lady]

i was wondering that, would stannous declare for Jon if R+L=J? would be ironic for him to meet someone who actually has a better claim :P question though, assuming it comes to a ware between Stannis+starks+vale+riverlands+ironborn+sellswords vs Aegon+Golden-company+storm-lords+tyrells+dorne, and each side has a dragon (dunno where daenerys will fall in, my guess is with Jon), WHO HAS THE STRONGEST CLAIM?? is it Jon or Aegon who is Rhaegars first son? i believe both have a stronger claim than daenerys, but am unsure who is top of the pile? :dunno:

Hmm the one who ends up on top after a fight has the strongest claim I would think. Robert got the throne by conquest, and it would be the same for anyone else i guess.

Other than that Jon has a stronger claim than Dany, if he is legit and not a bastard.

Btw it feels like I'm talking to myself right now, excellent choice of avatar my friend!

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

i saw it and fell in love, i can take no credit for your excellent find!! :bowdown:

i was only asking because wouldn't rhaegars firstborn be the prince who was promised? i admit i may have merged this prophecy with the Azor Ahai one by accident :dunce:

[aspasia]

Does anyone else have a baaaaaaad feeling about what Rickon is going to be like once he gets found again?

As sorry as one feels for the poor kid, losing his entire family and home to violence before the age of five, I worry a lot about what those early traumas are going to mean for his adolescent character. Supposing that he absorbed as much as any toddler could from his parents, still, when Mother goes off and leaves him he's only four and isn't going to have established much in the way of the decency Starks seem to manifest (I know, I know, Sansa was a complete tool for betraying her father's plan to Cersei, but that was more a problem of idiocy than evil)... and from his first scenes he's reacting angrily to being abandoned, and acting out, and there isn't anyone willing or able to discipline him when he does.

Maybe I'm just over-influenced by Rickon's having become close friends with the Walder Freys, but I'm worried that he's going to turn out to be a bad, bad person, as bent by his losses as Viserys Targaryen, relying entirely for family on a big black direwolf who has NOT been trained as well as Grey Wind or Ghost or Summer; Rickon was simply too young to take responsibility for a direwolf cub. Instead of training the wolf, they've probably trained one another, and Rickon has been using Shaggydog as a big mean weapon; that's more dangerous threat than any five-year-old ought to have, and it isn't going to make for a psychologically healthy, non-vicious adult person.

Rickon is going to turn out to be the really tragic Stark. You think *Arya* has moral or mental or emotional problems? She's probably going to look like a model of shining character next to what Davos is going to find on Skagos.

My only hope is that Rickon gets a lot of tough mother love from Osha, and she manages to teach him that lashing out and acting up will never fix what's wrong. She seems too tough to let Rickon's rank as a Stark prince outweigh her authority over him as an adult over a child; I just hope Rickon doesn't get mad at her for making him be quiet, and set Shaggydog to tear out her throat. Holy prayers, what would Rickon be like after living a few years FERAL on Skagos? Eating human babies Shaggydog brings him as the best portion of the kill?

Shudder.

[aspasia]

is it Jon or Aegon who is Rhaegars first son? i believe both have a stronger claim than daenerys, but am unsure who is top of the pile? :dunno:

I believe Jon is supposed to have been sired after Elia's two children. She almost died bearing Aegon and could not risk another pregnancy. NO matter who Jon Snow's parents are, he is supposed to be several months to a year younger than Aegon, who was born before the outbreak of Robert's Rebellion.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

:agree: never thought of the impact on rikon :stillsick: .. as you said hopefully a lot of help from Mama osha :P

this rikon problem tells me once again that bran must come back from the children (or perhaps WITH the children :drool: ) as he would be an excellent lord of winterfell should Jon march south ... however only time will tell

[Bride of Winter]

Could the 'King of Winter' and the 'King in the North' be two seperate people...?

What if Robb Stark was raised from the dead as a man with a wolfs head... like an Other? He would serve the great other / death / stranger and bring justice to the living...? He would be waging war on Westeros with the full force of the long-night behind him... and become known as "the King of Winter" ... at the same time Bran or Rickon or whoever... become / are King in the North... and their purpose is to protect the innocent... by creating 'wards' and defences and using their gifts and knowledge to save everyone... offering safe-houses at Winterfell / Storms end, the Wall etc...

This sounds absolutely awesomely insane.

Tbh I've always thought of the King of Winter and the King in the North as two different things. I thought the King of Winter is much more supernatural, where the KiTN is political. Replace Robb with Jon (because there's a good chance he'll be unJon, or at least a lot darker than he used to be imo) and that's pretty much what I for the 'King of Winter' role. and either Bran or Rickon or even Sansa could be the political leader of the north.

[N. Baratheon]

Let's see:

Bran with his Greensight and Warging is probably the most powerful magical individual in all of Westeros, if not the world (If not now then in time)

Arya is going to be a Faceless Man

Sansa is about to have the power of the Vale behind her (If all goes smoothly, which it probably will not)

Jon may or may not be Azor Ahai reborn and the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (To be fair that last one may no longer be in effect)

Rickon is Rickon

Something tells me the Starks will make a comeback

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

:agree: and i will sit there with a big grin and a tub of popcorn and a good auld frey pie :cheers:

i think the purpose of rickon is for him to surface first, so all the alliances etc have been made by the time the rest arrive ... then the sucking of diesel shall begin :cool4:

[analeigh]

A wild, untamed Rickon is exactly what the Starks need for their comeback. The North values strength and they want an able-bodied Stark male to rally behind militarily, even if he's a young boy. Young or not, if Rickon shows promise to be a strong warrior/lord, the northern houses will back him like they did Robb. Unfortunately, the north just can't put much faith in Bran since he's crippled. It's unfair, but it's the way of the North. But Rickon reappearing with the support of the Skagosi and a wild Shaggydog at his side? And with White Harbor and Lord Manderly sponsoring his claim? Not a bad way to announce the Starks are back.

Sansa will secure the political alliances. The Vale will help her, once it's revealed they've been sheltering the only publicly known heir to Winterfell and the North. They wanted to join Robb's cause and I can't see the Vale lords refusing to help Sansa. Who in the Vale wouldn't be honor bound to help Sansa reclaim her birthright, especially if Harrold the Heir takes a liking to her? And she's a Tully in appearance, she can find additional support in the Riverlands. The Riverlords once loyal to Robb will try to find a way to rejoin their former allies when it becomes known that the Vale is finally throwing its weight behind the North. Sansa is in a prime position to bring back the Great Northern Alliance!

Throw in Arya, the faceless assassin and Bran, the all powerful warg and greenseer, and that's the making of a scary comeback! The Lannisters/Boltons/Freys will curse themselves for not making sure all the Starks were truly dead. As much as I like the Stark kids with good, strong morals, I like that their enemies have pushed them to the breaking point. Their enemies broke up the pack but soon it'll be time we see the wolves come together to unleash hell and chaos on their enemies!

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

A wild, untamed Rickon is exactly what the Starks need for their comeback. The North values strength and they want an able-bodied Stark male to rally behind militarily, even if he's a young boy. Young or not, if Rickon shows promise to be a strong warrior/lord, the northern houses will back him like they did Robb. Unfortunately, the north just can't put much faith in Bran since he's crippled. It's unfair, but it's the way of the North. But Rickon reappearing with the support of the Skagosi and a wild Shaggydog at his side? And with White Harbor and Lord Manderly sponsoring his claim? Not a bad way to announce the Starks are back.

Sansa will secure the political alliances. The Vale will help her, once it's revealed they've been sheltering the only publicly known heir to Winterfell and the North. They wanted to join Robb's cause and I can't see the Vale lords refusing to help Sansa. Who in the Vale wouldn't be honor bound to help Sansa reclaim her birthright, especially if Harrold the Heir takes a liking to her? And she's a Tully in appearance, she can find additional support in the Riverlands. The Riverlords once loyal to Robb will try to find a way to rejoin their former allies when it becomes known that the Vale is finally throwing its weight behind the North. Sansa is in a prime position to bring back the Great Northern Alliance!

Throw in Arya, the faceless assassin and Bran, the all powerful warg and greenseer, and that's the making of a scary comeback! The Lannisters/Boltons/Freys will curse themselves for not making sure all the Starks were truly dead. As much as I like the Stark kids with good, strong morals, I like that their enemies have pushed them to the breaking point. Their enemies broke up the pack but soon it'll be time we see the wolves come together to unleash hell and chaos on their enemies!

just add to this a legitimized jon snow, military badass and secondary warg??

[DragonSpawn]

This sounds absolutely awesomely insane.

Tbh I've always thought of the King of Winter and the King in the North as two different things. I thought the King of Winter is much more supernatural, where the KiTN is political. Replace Robb with Jon (because there's a good chance he'll be unJon, or at least a lot darker than he used to be imo) and that's pretty much what I for the 'King of Winter' role. and either Bran or Rickon or even Sansa could be the political leader of the north.

I know it sounds insane! but there is some logic in there.... My theory is that the great Other simply = the stranger / death - and is just a group of singers responsible for upholding the pacts made in the sight of the old gods... the others are just a simple case of re-animation and warging... therefore when Jon is brought back as an Other... Jon will be able to warg back into his body... However, Jon may not be powerful / skilled enough to do this on his own and may need help to steal his body back or Bran might make a sacrafice to appease the old gods so they give Jon back his body (a life for a life e.g Bran / Lady, Dany / MMD ) When he is reanimated his hand (having been fully burned) will be different to the rest of his body... as it was touched by fire... so his body will be like coldhands but his hand will be like lady stoneheart... therefore he will be able to hold a burning sword in his hand... The old gods are picking and choosing who will return to judge the living (Cersei: CoK "what is Stannis if not the stranger come to judge us all?") - and this theme of the Stranger being a judge and also the god of death also ties in with the Kings Justice... in other words the King = The Stranger (Death), the Queen = The Mother (Life)... While this represents the Others as a magical force of justice... not everyone (including the Starks) believe this is right as it could mean the end of life itself ... and it was the original Stark (Brandon the Builder) who first stuck two fingers up at the old gods and their justice and with the help of the 'good' singers who sing for life not death... built Stormsend, the Wall, Winterfell etc... also Syrio Forel to Arya: "...and what do we say to death Arya? ... Not today!" :)

+ How many thousands of times have we seen the dead judge the living already!? .. they seem to forget all else and become consumed by one purpose... so this makes an annoying amount of sense me thinks :)

However, a burning sword is all well and good but it serves only one purpose really... to kill an ultimate super-boss... since the Others are all controlled by warging etc... there is no super-bad guy.... the singers / old gods are many and they are untouchable ... however, they will decide their champion (as Mel has suggested ... although incorrectly assuming Bran is evil when actually it is her... as she is dead already ("she could feel the heat transforming her") - again - it is irrelevant if she is fire or ice... she's dead (or not far from it) and therefore a 'judge'... so who will be the ultimate champion of death?

There are three main candidates i reckon:

• Ser Gregor Clegane.... (he's just hard and fucked up and presumably dead-ish)
  
• Stannis Baratheon.... (not dead but this is based on Cersei's quote + his habit of dropping one magic if another will serve him better ... e.g r'hollor - old gods... as he did with his hawk.. if he dies he's a strong candidate)
  
• or my personal favourite and the one i believe makes the most sense... Robwind GreyStark as depicted in Danys vision in the house of the undying.. residing over a feast (NOT A WEDDING!) of savagely slaughtered corpses (presumably Freys / Boltons etc...) ... Who knows more of justice and injustice than Robb Stark? The King of Winter (only Stark to be officially crowned so far... although Bloodraven knowing Bran is now the rightful King in the North has given him an nice unofficial coronation... note: read chapter closely... singers singing Brans sad song... a weirwood throne... and a sacrafice...) ... so Robb would be the perfect champion for death... and since his wolf was killed there is no way he can come back as a sentient being like coldhands and Jon (potentially) ... this would also explain the historic confusion as to whether the Starks are good / bad
  

"Soooo... The Starks..." have a very positive outlook as both the bringers of justice and saviours of the realm... if this was to play out (roughly) as suggested it would create a weird... "yay! Robbwind has fucked up the Freys"... followed by "shiit... now he's going to kill Sansa!"

Note: I do love the olds gods and think they are the only ones who matter... sorry if this theory upsets people who believe that R'hollor ... the Great Other etc... actually exist... magic i think is all down to the singers ... and Jojen and Meera have already explained this to Bran "we swear it by bronze and iron... by ice and fire..." etc... Mel tells us aswell it is the battle for life and death that is important... i'll stop there... I could ramble for hours about the Starks :)

Edit: Grammar / Typos

[WinterWarrior]

Hmmm...am now re-reading SoS and am struck again by Robb drafting the document saying that Jon Snow is his heir as King of the North. Somehow that gets lost in the later story because Stannis makes him the offer of Winterfell....but I wonder if that document will hold power over the Northmen once Jon heals and is no longer a man of the nights watch. I think he will survive, not be unjon, but himself, and somehow become King of the North, but that does not mean he does it from Winterfell. Rickon will be at Winterfell. Sansa is too weak, even with LF.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

i agree that it will be rickon at winterfell in the absence of bran ... but seeing as robb and ned are dead (the all-singing, all-dancing lords) rickon will be the figurehead (i.e. "The Stark in Winterfell"), sansa will be the politician, Jon will be the military arm, Bran will be the magic arm (either by coming back to us or through his connection to the weirwood) and arya will also be magic and military (FM training and nymeria warging) ... almost like a small council under rickon?

i think it would be best if robb stayed dead and Jon was not a wight ... robbs death has a significant purpose, and that is now complete without him becoming a supernatural servant to the Great Other ... and jon being a wight isn't the only way for him to get a flame-proof hand (see victarion) ... i think ColdHands being a sentient wight is a once off, not to be repeated (CH=Night King??)

as far as i'm concerned, the odd resurrection is ok as it reminds us of how cool magic is (dragons, beric, etc) but i would hope against them becoming wholesale by all red priests ... i already think UnCat was a HUUUUUUUUUGE mistake, but hope she can serve some greater purpose ... agreement and contradiction are welcome :D

[Bride of Winter]

I know it sounds insane! but there is some logic in there.... My theory is that the great Other simply = the stranger / death - and is just a group of singers responsible for upholding the pacts made in the sight of the old gods... the others are just a simple case of re-animation and warging... therefore when Jon is brought back as an Other... Jon will be able to warg back into his body... However, Jon may not be powerful / skilled enough to do this on his own and may need help to steal his body back or Bran might make a sacrafice to appease the old gods so they give Jon back his body (a life for a life e.g Bran / Lady, Dany / MMD ) When he is reanimated his hand (having been fully burned) will be different to the rest of his body... as it was touched by fire... so his body will be like coldhands but his hand will be like lady stoneheart... therefore he will be able to hold a burning sword in his hand... The old gods are picking and choosing who will return to judge the living (Cersei: CoK "what is Stannis if not the stranger come to judge us all?") - and this theme of the Stranger being a judge and also the god of death also ties in with the Kings Justice... in other words the King = The Stranger (Death), the Queen = The Mother (Life)... While this represents the Others as a magical force of justice... not everyone (including the Starks) believe this is right as it could mean the end of life itself ... and it was the original Stark (Brandon the Builder) who first stuck two fingers up at the old gods and their justice and with the help of the 'good' singers who sing for life not death... built Stormsend, the Wall, Winterfell etc... also Syrio Forel to Arya: "...and what do we say to death Arya? ... Not today!" :)

+ How many thousands of times have we seen the dead judge the living already!? .. they seem to forget all else and become consumed by one purpose... so this makes an annoying amount of sense me thinks :)

However, a burning sword is all well and good but it serves only one purpose really... to kill an ultimate super-boss... since the Others are all controlled by warging etc... there is no super-bad guy.... the singers / old gods are many and they are untouchable ... however, they will decide their champion (as Mel has suggested ... although incorrectly assuming Bran is evil when actually it is her... as she is dead already ("she could feel the heat transforming her") - again - it is irrelevant if she is fire or ice... she's dead (or not far from it) and therefore a 'judge'... so who will be the ultimate champion of death?

There are three main candidates i reckon:

• Ser Gregor Clegane.... (he's just hard and fucked up and presumably dead-ish)
  
• Stannis Baratheon.... (not dead but this is based on Cersei's quote + his habit of dropping one magic if another will serve him better ... e.g r'hollor - old gods... as he did with his hawk.. if he dies he's a strong candidate)
  
• or my personal favourite and the one i believe makes the most sense... Robwind GreyStark as depicted in Danys vision in the house of the undying.. residing over a feast (NOT A WEDDING!) of savagely slaughtered corpses (presumably Freys / Boltons etc...) ... Who knows more of justice and injustice than Robb Stark? The King of Winter (only Stark to be officially crowned so far... although Bloodraven knowing Bran is now the rightful King in the North has given him an nice unofficial coronation... note: read chapter closely... singers singing Brans sad song... a weirwood throne... and a sacrafice...) ... so Robb would be the perfect champion for death... and since his wolf was killed there is no way he can come back as a sentient being like coldhands and Jon (potentially) ... this would also explain the historic confusion as to whether the Starks are good / bad
  

"Soooo... The Starks..." have a very positive outlook as both the bringers of justice and saviours of the realm... if this was to play out (roughly) as suggested it would create a weird... "yay! Robbwind has fucked up the Freys"... followed by "shiit... now he's going to kill Sansa!"

Note: I do love the olds gods and think they are the only ones who matter... sorry if this theory upsets people who believe that R'hollor ... the Great Other etc... actually exist... magic i think is all down to the singers ... and Jojen and Meera have already explained this to Bran "we swear it by bronze and iron... by ice and fire..." etc... Mel tells us aswell it is the battle for life and death that is important... i'll stop there... I could ramble for hours about the Starks :)

Edit: Grammar / Typos

don't worry, I meant insane in the best way! I agree with absolutely everything you wrote. I really think people are underestimating the importance that the supernatural elements (warging, others, and generally just the darker side of the north) are going to end up having. it's really not going to come down to a battle of good vs. evil.

also i'm glad to see you mention RobbWind in the House of the Undying vision (pretty much my favorite theory/prophecy). I agree that it definitely wasn't the RW, and the main reason being that Robb had no power at the RW, whereas in the vision he was pretty much calmly presiding over all the dead. I always thought this is what we'll get in the future - Robb now being a power causing so many deaths in the future. I always saw it in a more figurative sense ie. the Starks exacting revenge in his name, but I think if it could be in a literal sense like you said it would be all the more powerful. it'd be amazing to see the creature the Freys created in mockery of the "Young Wolf" idea literally come back to haunt them. (Also didn't they claim that Robb turned into a wolf and attacked them at the RW? oh, the beautiful irony if it actually happens in the future...)

[DragonSpawn]

don't worry, I meant insane in the best way! I agree with absolutely everything you wrote. I really think people are overlooking the importance that the supernatural elements (warging, others, and generally just the darker side of the north) are going to end up having. it's really not going to come down to a battle of good vs. evil.

also i'm glad to see you mention RobbWind in the House of the Undying vision (pretty much my favorite theory/prophecy). I agree that it definitely wasn't the RW, and the main reason being that Robb had no power at the RW, whereas in the vision he was pretty much calmly presiding over all the dead. I always thought this is what we'll get in the future - Robb now being the main power causing so many deaths in the future. I always saw it in a more figurative sense ie. the Starks exacting revenge in his name, but I think if it could be in a literal sense like you said it would be all the more powerful. it'd be amazing to see the creature the Freys created in mockery of the "Young Wolf" idea literally come back to haunt them. (Also didn't they claim that Robb turned into a wolf and attacked them at the RW? oh, the beautiful irony if it actually happens in the future...)

Exactly! Thank you! someone gets me at last! Guestright is serious business for the old gods... what would be more appropriate than the monster they created coming back to judge them!?!?!? and im my humble opinion the Winds of Winter will make the Red Wedding look like a pleasant family picninc...

If you are wondering about the 'how' of it all... i have a fairly complex theory regarding the fact that the 'ward' protecting the Wall was broken when Jon Snow died... (i use that term loosely!) ... which is why we hear no more from the Wall... i wont go through the details ... but imagine a time before the Wall existed... the Others would have spread much quicker if there were as many people as there are now... becasue it is the old gods / singers warging the dead... so right from p1 in the next book i would expect to see all sorts of dead rising again... the chapter "the sacrafice" is clue enough... look at how much time Asha spends describing the three burned men... and how the snow is covering them...

Basically blood is the most important thing in the whole series... the purer it is e.g. blood of the first men... or dragon blood... the stronger the protection against death... (by making blood sacrafice the 'gifts' of the singers were bestowed upon the first men) the only way to stop the dead from rising is to re-activate the 'ward' on the wall through sacrafice... (we know this as how to create a 'ward' has been fully explained already!) - did you spot it? ;)

Interestingly Theon is a 'ward' of the Starks... i wonder if this is foreshadowing of a sacrafice to come... either to bring back Jon or to create a 'ward' around Winterfell or at the Wall... The NW also has many 'wards' courtesy of the Wildlings although the murder of children to protect the realm is a bit ghastly... so i'm hoping it doesn't need to go that far... mind you .. the Wall is pretty big... :(

and worth bearing in mind that sacrafice isn't always evil - there has been one proper sacrafice so far (Jojen) and i can say that with absolute certainty :) (i'll buy a hat and eat it if i'm wrong - & upload the photos!)