Did Catelyn make any good decisions?

[Blaer Dayle]

One ridiculous idea that seems to arisen as of late on these boards is that by arguing with someone's ideas, you are personally attacking and/ or trying to draw them out into a fight. I'd say that this is a message board-- when you put forth opinions, especially somewhat controversial opinions, you should pretty much expect them to be argued against. Personal insults are never cool, but arguing against someones ideas? One of the fundamental parts of discussions on these boards.

Oh I understand, no worries, my point is people have mistaken the intention of my post. I'm not saying that Cat should have made any other decisions, I'm simply pointing out the bad things that come about due to her decisions, and showing that it is possible (although not probable) that she might have come to decisions with better outcomes with a little more thought, or better fortune. I don't need to be shown the wisdom or rationality behind the decisions, as I know they were rational in a sense, knowing what she knew at each particular time, the points are not to put down the wisdom of Cat, but rather point out the tragic outcomes that result from her actions. I actually liked your point that Cat made no bad decisions, only wrong decisions, and that is exactly how I view them as well You have put my thoughts into words better than I ever could have.

@Butterbumps!

Fair enough, I don't mean he has an inferiority complex by any means, but I do think he thinks less of himself than he deserves, which as you point out might actually be a beneficial thing in his case.

[Teak]

I want to say she fought that weirdo of Joffreys off of Bran but that may turn out to have been unwise roping an Anakin Skywalker sort of way...but lets hope not.

[Silmarien]

I want to say she fought that weirdo of Joffreys off of Bran but that may turn out to have been unwise roping an Anakin Skywalker sort of way...but lets hope not.

What do you mean? She freaking grabbed that blade with her bare hands! That was some BADASSERY.

[Blaer Dayle]

What do you mean? She freaking grabbed that blade with her bare hands! That was some BADASSERY.

True. It's things like this that make me like her character.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I think Catelyn is (at least until her death) clearly a good, well-intentioned character. However, I do not think she is particularly clever. GRRM's world is pretty realistic in terms of personality depiction and one side effect to this is that characters that consider feelings before strategy tend to suffer for it (exactly as it usually happens in Real Life). That's the case with Cat.

That said, I don't necessarily agree with all the points made by the OP. I'm just going to defend the ones I agree with him using the (sometimes very defensive) arguments made by Silmarien as basis. Let's go.

1 and 5. Did she had the conversation? To me it seemed like she just asked Brandon not to kill LF and then never spoke to him again. Still, I don't blame her for it. Somethings really don't need to be spelled out and were he not a total psycho, he would be over her by the time she got to King's Landing. She couldn't predict it, unless perhaps if she were an astonishing judge of character (Tywin/Tyrion style... most other characters couldn't avoid it either). 2 points for Cat (1 and 5).

2. I'm pretty sure that what the OP ment is that Jon Snow would not have HAD to go to the Night's Watch if Catelyn wasn't so inexcusably mean to him. He was a child and she had a LONG time to cope with it and at least treat him farly, she didn't. Had she been at least human to the poor child, he could've probably go to war with Robb (and perhaps change the whole course of the war, since he proved to be a VERY GOOD commander). 1 point against Cat

3. Wasn't she such a horrible judge of character, she should've not given this bad advice for Ned. She would've KNOWN that Ned wasn't be the man for the job. Also, the Lannister's (specially Tywin's) fame preceds them. It's not like it were a secret that by accepting the position Ned would be at best threading in very dangerous territory. That said, I DO think that Ned would've accepted to be Hand anyway, duo to sense of honor and duty. So, I'd call it a tie.

4. Her father had been dying for LONG now. Visiting when war would had just broke was a very bad, emotional thing to do. No excuses for here on this one. 1 point against Cat

6. Knowing Lysa she should've not gonne to the Eyre. Riverrun would still have been a better option. Or just go back to the North and Winterfell where she should've been headed anyway. 1 point against Cat

7. Cat can't really boss around Lysa in the Vale. It would be unfair to expect her to conduct the judgement herself. 1 point for Cat.

8. She does give some very bad militar advice. We are talking about the actual MILITARY advice here, which she shouldn't give, since she doesn't really know anything on the subject. I understand that she meant well, since she believed her son was still to "green" to fight the war and only meant to help him. Still, this was "advice from the heart" which has no place on the battlefield. 1 point against Cat

9. Ok, she couldn't have antecipated an attack. Still, since Rob was not at Winterfell at the time, she should have been, cause their sons were kids and could use some advice (running the castle, helping Bran serve as Lord, etc are tasks she would likelly have accomplished way better then giving military advice. However, I've already said she gives crap military advice on the other point. So she should be at Winterfell because there was no better place for her at the time, not that she should predict an attack or such nonsense. So I'd say this is a tie.

10. I think Cat's time with the Baratheons was perfect. She left right on time and for good reason once she realised her diplomatic mission could no longer be helped. Point for Cat.

11. Releasing Jaime was terrible. Catelyn did many, many unwise things duo to being to emotional, but this one was not only slightly bad strategy like most others. This was just plain DUMB, really. Not to mention a betrayal to Robb. Had she not been his mother, any lord worth his name would just execute her. Were I Robb, I'd probably keep her prisioner for the rest of the war. Obviously, point against Cat.

12. This was not bad advice from her since Robb pretty much HAD to cross the freaking Twins. At this point, I believe, all was already lost anyway. Still, SOMEBODY should've warned Robb not to trust the Freys so blindly (and Cat was the one who knew them well). Still, this would need some cleverness that she does no pocess and even smarter characters could not have thought of that. So I'd say this one is also a draw.

At the end of the day, Cat is no heroine nor monster like some people make her out to be. She is just a regular person, not specially dumb, but also not cunning who was put on a situation involving military, political and diplomatic decisions fair beyond her capabilities. And that's fine, not all people must be strategic geniuses. But were I her frend/son/husband/whatever, I'd NEVER trust such a person with such hard decisions and probably do my best to show her how to be a more cool/level-headed person. She REALLY could use this lesson.

[David Selig]

2. I'm pretty sure that what the OP ment is that Jon Snow would not have HAD to go to the Night's Watch if Catelyn wasn't so inexcusably mean to him. He was a child and she had a LONG time to cope with it and at least treat him farly, she didn't. Had she been at least human to the poor child, he could've probably go to war with Robb (and perhaps change the whole course of the war, since he proved to be a VERY GOOD commander).

You do realise Robb won all his battles and lost his war due to being a terrible politician, right? Even if we assume Jon is an awesome battle commander (which is a big stretch), this wouldn't have changed anything politically.

Releasing Jaime was terrible. Catelyn did many, many unwise things duo to being to emotional,

This nonsense again... She's one of the most rational characters in the series, much more so than Ned, Robb, Jon, Tyrion, you name them... But since she is a woman, naturally she gets blamed for being too emotional unlike them.

4. Her father had been dying for LONG now. Visiting when war would had just broke was a very bad, emotional thing to do.

So because there was a war you are supposed to ignore that your parent is dying? Seriously?

[Errant Bard]

2. I'm pretty sure that what the OP ment is that Jon Snow would not have HAD to go to the Night's Watch if Catelyn wasn't so inexcusably mean to him. He was a child and she had a LONG time to cope with it and at least treat him farly, she didn't. Had she been at least human to the poor child, he could've probably go to war with Robb (and perhaps change the whole course of the war, since he proved to be a VERY GOOD commander). 1 point against Cat

She was human to him. Seriously, way to make something monstrous of... not talking to someone.

Jon did not HAVE to go to the Watch, it's spelled out several times: the only thing Cat objected to was having him under her roof, especially when oh so righteous Ned decided to NOT have Jon under HIS roof, and dump the responsibility on Cat.

You know fostering? Ned was fostered, younger than Jon. Robert Arryn was to be fostered, younger than Jon. Ned was Lord of the North, any northern Lord would have bent backwards to foster Jon. Bastardy is not a concern, there were enough bastards in high places, starting with Ramsay Snow by then, continuing with Aurane Waters or the Sand Snakes to show the lie in the Watch being the only outlet for bastards.

Oh yes, also, a very good commander doesn't get stabbed by his own officers.

3. Wasn't she such a horrible judge of character, she should've not given this bad advice for Ned. She would've KNOWN that Ned wasn't be the man for the job. Also, the Lannister's (specially Tywin's) fame preceds them. It's not like it were a secret that by accepting the position Ned would be at best threading in very dangerous territory.

... She told him to accept the job precisely because they suspected Jon Arryn was assassinated by the Lannisters, and also because of ambition (which is not a bad word.)

I boggles the mind that she is accused, again and again, to not be able to see the future, while all the circumstantial evidence backs her reasoning.

Why should have she known Ned wasn't the right guy? He's lord of half a continent, he survived a civil war as Robert's second in command already, he's already wary of the Lannisters, he is the best friend of the king, and she has never even seen how the court was, holed up in Winterfell for 15 years, no more than Ned.

4. Her father had been dying for LONG now. Visiting when war would had just broke was a very bad, emotional thing to do. No excuses for here on this one. 1 point against Cat

... The point was to accompany Robb to give him advice, visiting her father was a good side-effect, since you know, dying persons end up dying at one point.

6. Knowing Lysa she should've not gonne to the Eyre. Riverrun would still have been a better option. Or just go back to the North and Winterfell where she should've been headed anyway. 1 point against Cat

She didn't know Lysa. Brynden Tully warns her as much when she reaches the bloody gates. Lysa is not as she was, and they never met in 15 years.

8. She does give some very bad militar advice. We are talking about the actual MILITARY advice here, which she shouldn't give, since she doesn't really know anything on the subject. I understand that she meant well, since she believed her son was still to "green" to fight the war and only meant to help him. Still, this was "advice from the heart" which has no place on the battlefield. 1 point against Cat

She was raised as Hoster's son, she has as much military knowledge than Robb has. Please bring up the "advice from the heart" she gave that was not a good military advice. I don't think it exists.

9. Ok, she couldn't have antecipated an attack. Still, since Rob was not at Winterfell at the time, she should have been, cause their sons were kids and could use some advice (running the castle, helping Bran serve as Lord, etc are tasks she would likelly have accomplished way better then giving military advice. However, I've already said she gives crap military advice on the other point. So she should be at Winterfell because there was no better place for her at the time, not that she should predict an attack or such nonsense. So I'd say this is a tie.

Yeah, not like Luwyn or Rodrick Cassel or every person in Winterfell's staff cannot give advice, but Robb is just fine among strangers, 14 years old is very old.

Also not like Ned gave her the responsibility to lead the Winterfell forces.

11. Releasing Jaime was terrible. Catelyn did many, many unwise things duo to being to emotional, but this one was not only slightly bad strategy like most others. This was just plain DUMB, really. Not to mention a betrayal to Robb. Had she not been his mother, any lord worth his name would just execute her. Were I Robb, I'd probably keep her prisioner for the rest of the war. Obviously, point against Cat.

Funny how it's the action that actually was the most positive to the Stark cause out of everything done by the family, though, heh?

It wasn't dumb, it was a gamble, and lo, it almost worked. Robb could have avoided the backlash if only he did throw her into a cell like she had planned, instead of pardonning her because he wanted her to not scold him for marrying Jeyne and sowing the seeds of his own murder.

SOMEBODY should've warned Robb not to trust the Freys so blindly (and Cat was the one who knew them well).

And somebody did. Several times. The first time was recounting how the Freys never commmited themselves until the issue was certain in Robert's rebellion, the last time was pleading that Robb drink and eat something at the Red Wedding, even piss if need be. The one who provided these advices was... Catelyn.

[teemo]

I can think of a few off the top of my head. She did try to give Robb some very wise counsel, which he ignored. She realized the consequences of breaking that marriage pact and never felt quite right about anything after that (well, how she handled it - that's a different story). Cat trusted the direwolves senses more than Robb. She had Rolph Spicer sent off away at once and took Grey Wind's responses very seriously. Although it failed because of the shadow, she did attempt to speak with Renly about coming to peace terms, which I don't think was a bad idea. The thing is with Catelyn, is that she bases a lot of her decisions on intuition, and her intuition is either spot-on or completely wrong. For instance, comparing Jon Snow to Theon was just wrong. Wanting to send away anyone who Grey Wind disliked was right.

[The Sleeper]

Not much to add except a comment on Catelyn releasing Jamie. It was by any means a desperate gamble but there were political reasons as well to take it. After Bran's and Rickon's deaths, Sansa and Arya jumped two spots in the line of succession which increased their political value expotentially, a fact neither Tywin Lannister nor the Queen of Thornes failed to realize and tried to exploit straight away.

[Errant Bard]

For instance, comparing Jon Snow to Theon was just wrong.

She never compared them though. She only insisted that she was right with Theon so Robb should not dismiss her input like he did before, cause, you know, she is a better judge of character than him (and it's true too).

As for what would have come to pass with Jon named heir, it's rpecisely what she cannot accept: every single child of her body disinherited.

[Evamitchelle]

For instance, comparing Jon Snow to Theon was just wrong. Wanting to send away anyone who Grey Wind disliked was right.

The Blackfish makes that comparison to Jaime in AFFC, Cat never does IIRC : "Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy".

[bloodymime]

I think Catelyn is (at least until her death) clearly a good, well-intentioned character. However, I do not think she is particularly clever. GRRM's world is pretty realistic in terms of personality depiction and one side effect to this is that characters that consider feelings before strategy tend to suffer for it (exactly as it usually happens in Real Life). That's the case with Cat.

That said, I d2. I'm pretty sure that what the OP ment is that Jon Snow would not have HAD to go to the Night's Watch if Catelyn wasn't so inexcusably mean to him. He was a child and she had a LONG time to cope with it and at least treat him farly, she didn't. Had she bon't necessarily agree with all the points made by the OP. I'm just going to defend the ones I agree with him using the (sometimes very defensive) arguments made by Silmarien as basis. Let's go.

1 and 5. Did she had the conversation? To me it seemed like she just asked Brandon not to kill LF and then never spoke to him again. Still, I don't blame her for it. Somethings really don't need to be spelled out and were he not a total psycho, he would be over her by the time she got to King's Landing. She couldn't predict it, unless perhaps if she were an astonishing judge of character (Tywin/Tyrion style... most other characters couldn't avoid it either). 2 points for Cat (1 and 5).

4. Her father had been dying for LONG now. Visiting when war would had just broke was a very bad, emotional thing to do. No excuses for here on this one. 1 point against Cat

1. After the duel she was forbidden to go near littlefinger and he was thrown out as soon as he was well enough to travel.

4. I'd have to reread to be sure but fairly confident Hoster was keeping his sickness a closely guarded secret to preven people like the freys from knowing his weakness and that she had no idea he was sick. Something along the lines of ravens can be taken down, messengers can be intercepted.

Though now that I think about it it does seem strange on the face of it to trust littlefinger so much after all the shit that did go down the last time she saw him. We're not just talking about getting over a case of puppy love, the guy was nearly killed in a duel over her. His choice and her duty to deny him at every turn yes but that's still not something I'd personally expect someone to just forgive and forget no matter the reasons.

[EdricBaratheon]

Probably advising Robb not to let Theon travel back to the Iron Islands. If Robb had listened to her counsel then the war could have had a different outcome (though that remains to be seen).

[Castel]

Though now that I think about it it does seem strange on the face of it to trust littlefinger so much after all the shit that did go down the last time she saw him. We're not just talking about getting over a case of puppy love, the guy was nearly killed in a duel over her. His choice and her duty to deny him at every turn yes but that's still not something I'd personally expect someone to just forgive and forget no matter the reasons.

s

This was a man who thought he was dying and the word he chose was "Cat". I don't think he ever truly blamed her either.