Did Catelyn make any good decisions?

[Blaer Dayle]

I don't hate Catelyn by any means, but it seems like EVERY decision that she made EVER, was a bad one. I'll go from as early as I can think of, until things as they stand:

1. Playing into Petyr's emotions: If she had simply had a serious conversation with Petyr, and explained that there was nothing between them, and never could be, he might have accepted it. Instead she lets him believe that she wants him but can't because of her high birth. Case in point, Catelyn created the sinister ambitions of Littlefinger, which would come to bleed the realm.

2. Hating Jon Snow simply based on his bastard parentage: sure her family motto is Family, Duty, Honor, but even the most honourable person can show respect for someone who deserves it. Jon seems to be the only child of Ned that is capable of making difficult command decisions and remaining dutiful even when it is not in his best interests. If she had grown to love, or at least hate Jon less, maybe he might have been able to have a more fulfilled life, and may have been able to help Robb in the war.

3. Convincing Ned to become the Hand: Ned is the one who has to make this decision and live with its consequences. He's the one who will have to run the kingdom, which he knows Robert is not fit to do, and take all the blame for anything that is done wrong. Catelyn in an attempt to simply secure a good future for her children insists he travel to a strange place, and live among enemies, both open and hidden, just so that her family will have happy lives.

4. Leaving your crippled child, and the young toddler: Bran just had one assassination attempt on his life, and there's nothing to say that another is not bound to happen. If Catelyn had not been there Bran would be dead, if she leaves he is even more likely to die. Surely she could have gotten the message to Ned in a way that wouldn't involve leaving two (3 if we include Robb) of her children alone and without a true parent.

5. Trusting Littlefinger: obviously she couldn't have known his intent, and trusted him having grown up together, but the last time she saw him he fought for her love and lost, surely she must have known from his personality that he would not take that lying down.

6. Upon capturing Tyrion, bringing him to the most secluded area in the 7 Kingdoms: Riverrun is as close to the crossroads as the Eyrie, and she would not have to deal with the mountain clans. Obviously she did this to throw pursuers off the trail, but surely a ride to Riverrun through land she should know from her childhood should make her able to avoid capture. Going to the vale simply slowed communications and caused the beginning of the war.

7. Allowing Lysa to take control of the trial: She mentions that Lysa is not herself, and seems to be going insane, yet she allows Lysa to take control of her prisoner and try him against how she would have conducted the trial. Had she insisted on trying Tyrion fairly, or left the Eyrie with her prisoner some misunderstanding may have been avoided later.

8. Poor military consulting: every time Robb makes a plan she tries to oppose it, they inevitably argue, he carries out the plan, and every time his plans work. The first time he takes input on a plan is the Red Wedding, but we'll get to that.

9. Staying with her dying father... who's been dying for... 10 years...: it's not like he started dying when she got there. If she'd wanted to see him she should have come when the realm was at peace. Instead she puts off returning to the 2 vulnerable boys in Winterfell, while threats come in of Ironborn attacking the coasts of the North

10. Trying to broker peace between the Baratheons: she knows the reputations of both, and has seen the strength commanded by either. she fully understands that neither of them will back down, yet insists on sticking around to see how it turns out. As a result she ends up with the blame for a dead king on her hands.

11. Releasing Jaime: Obviously her biggest mistake. What was she thinking? Trusting the Kingslayer's word, to persuade the Lanisters to return hostages after they've already received their main sword back, and her son remains in open war with them... I don't even need to explain how stupid this is.

12. Persuading Robb and his army to go to the Twins: She knows better than anyone how petty the Freys are, and she knows that Robb was completely wrong in taking Jeyne Westerling as a wife, yet she insists on going to the Twins to apologize. By believing that Walder would honor the guest right she doomed her son's entire cause.

I'm reluctant to include her actions as Lady Stoneheart, as I'm not sure if she is entirely in control of her actions any more, but if she is, her mistakes continue to pile up.

Overall I understand Catelyn's motivations, and know that she was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, at all times, but every decision she made turned out to be the wrong one. It's quite sad really.

I'm putting this here, since everybody only seems to notice my first post, and not that I have changed my mind on some points, and fails to realize that the point of the thread is not to complain that Catelyn is some mastermind evil entity, but rather that every decision she made had bad results in the end. Yes I know she couldn't see the outcomes. Yes I know she acted rationally at every level. No I'm not saying she acted wrongly or should have known my points before making the decisions she made. My point is that every decision in the end turned out to be the wrong one, and I find her story to be quite tragic as a result. Everyone thinks of Cat in black and white terms on the boards, but I see her as a shade of grey, a piece who does not control the outcomes of her actions. There is no need to attack all of my points and disprove them, or claim how Cat made the right decision. I know that, the point is every decision that she made that was followed through ended badly, and the best decisions she made were not followed. THAT is the point of this thread.

[Silmarien]

Um, how about advising Robb NOT to choose Theon as an envoy to his father Balon Greyjoy?

How about her early advice before they get to the Freys? How about her negotiating there?

What did she do wrong as an envoy to Renly and Stannis?

How is LF lying to her Catelyn's fault?

[The guy from the Vale]

<p>Eh... let me just put it that way: Catelyn sure is a bad decision-maker, but she's a good counsellor. Yes, Robb is better in the short term military matters. But more often than not, Catelyn has sound strategic advice for him. Some examples:

• Catelyn argued against sending Theon as an envoy to his father. Had Robb listened to her, Balon would have had more trouble striking against the North, as Theon's life was in danger.
  
• Catelyn was against Robb being declared King in the North. Arguably, declaring for Stannis while trying to get some concessions of increased autonomy would have helped the Starks a lot: When the Ironborn captured Winterfell, they could have asked Stannis to send a force to Moat Caitlin so they still could get back. Instead, they were trapped.
  
• I can't really hold Catelyn distrusting Jon against her. Not with the background stories of Dunk and Egg showing what turmoil legitimized bastards could havoc. And the Jon Cat knew isn't the responsible Lord Snow, but rather the emo jerk Jon we see early on in these books.
  
• And trying to get an alliance against the Lannisters was also the right thing to do. Noone could know about shaddow babies at that point...
  

[deleted01]

I can't even.. not again :bang:

[Serie]

the tragic thing about Catelyn is that all decision she took and all advise she gave and were followed, failed miserably. Her good advise, as Silmarien suggested, were not followed.

I don't blame her, most of these she could not foresee (except when capturing Tyrion maybe).

[Thunderfist]

I can't even.. not again :bang:

:agree:

[Blaer Dayle]

Fair enough, like I said I'm painting a pretty bad image of Catelyn here, and I'm glad to see that she did make some good decisions (Theon being the most important in my mind), but with the Baratheons what I mean to say is that when it was clear that i would come to battle Catelyn should have cut her losses and run instead she stuck around, ran at the worst possible moment, and was blamed for Renly's death, and it isn't her fault that Petyr lied, but she shouldn't have trusted him so easily.

I can't even.. not again :bang:

I'm sorry it's probably a common topic, but I wasn't around to argue it before. Like I said she's a good character with good intentions, but it just seems that nothing ever goes right for her, and that's all I wanted to discuss.

[The guy from the Vale]

well, Petyr was essentially her stepbrother, so she would have no reason to distrust him.

[Silmarien]

I don't hate Catelyn by any means, but it seems like EVERY decision that she made EVER, was a bad one. I'll go from as early as I can think of, until things as they stand:

1. Playing into Petyr's emotions: If she had simply had a serious conversation with Petyr, and explained that there was nothing between them, and never could be, he might have accepted it. Instead she lets him believe that she wants him but can't because of her high birth. Case in point, Catelyn created the sinister ambitions of Littlefinger, which would come to bleed the realm.

SHE DID HAVE THIS CONVERSATION! She chose Brandon Stark, NOT LF. She could have told her father NO, I want to marry Petyr, but she didn't. She didn't "play into his emotions"....that's Petyr's fucked up obsession. Why are you laying that at HER feet?

2. Hating Jon Snow simply based on his bastard parentage: sure her family motto is Family, Duty, Honor, but even the most honourable person can show respect for someone who deserves it. Jon seems to be the only child of Ned that is capable of making difficult command decisions and remaining dutiful even when it is not in his best interests. If she had grown to love, or at least hate Jon less, maybe he might have been able to have a more fulfilled life, and may have been able to help Robb in the war.

Firstly, Jon took his vows before the war started so no, he couldn't have "honorably" served Robb in the war and likely would've ended up dead at the RW with the rest of them. Is that the outcome you'd have liked?

Secondly, Ramsay Snow is the answer to the question why Catelyn didn't like Jon. The Blackfyre wars for the Iron Throne are another answer. Bastards can rival legitimate children's claims, and sinister bastards especially. Catelyn did not HATE Jon...she was cold, and it was incredibly humiliating to have proof of her husband's infidelity living and breathing every day in Winterfell during their marriage. Cat did not owe Jon to be a fairy stepmother. Her words in Bran's sick room were harsh but GRRM has stated that it was atypical behavior.

3. Convincing Ned to become the Hand: Ned is the one who has to make this decision and live with its consequences. He's the one who will have to run the kingdom, which he knows Robert is not fit to do, and take all the blame for anything that is done wrong. Catelyn in an attempt to simply secure a good future for her children insists he travel to a strange place, and live among enemies, both open and hidden, just so that her family will have happy lives.

Cat had a better political acumen than Ned. She knew that Sansa being queen would be good for her daughter and their family in the long run - Cat couldn't have known that Joffrey was such a little shit, and that he'd beat Sansa, or that the Lannisters weren't going to honor the deal, or that Joffrey would decide to kill Ned instead of let him take the Black. You're hating on Cat for things she could never have anticipated or known about that we as readers know because we have multiple POVs and a wider knowledge than Cat could ever have.

4. Leaving your crippled child, and the young toddler: Bran just had one assassination attempt on his life, and there's nothing to say that another is not bound to happen. If Catelyn had not been there Bran would be dead, if she leaves he is even more likely to die. Surely she could have gotten the message to Ned in a way that wouldn't involve leaving two (3 if we include Robb) of her children alone and without a true parent.

Her FATHER WAS DYING. And you chide Catelyn for not wanting to be there for her father's last moments? She had no idea the Ironborn, let alone THEON, would attack Winterfell and "kill" her children. They obviously planned to go North again, after the RW, but then it was too late.

5. Trusting Littlefinger: obviously she couldn't have known his intent, and trusted him having grown up together, but the last time she saw him he fought for her love and lost, surely she must have known from his personality that he would not take that lying down.

Why, after all those years, should she assume Petyr still held a grudge against her or had an unhealthy obsession with her? Most people GET THE F*CK over those kinds of things and live their lives. All Cat knew was that Petyr was an old friend after 15 years, not that he still loved her and held a grudge against Brandon and Ned forever.

6. Upon capturing Tyrion, bringing him to the most secluded area in the 7 Kingdoms: Riverrun is as close to the crossroads as the Eyrie, and she would not have to deal with the mountain clans. Obviously she did this to throw pursuers off the trail, but surely a ride to Riverrun through land she should know from her childhood should make her able to avoid capture. Going to the vale simply slowed communications and caused the beginning of the war.

The Riverlands were an easy target - Tywin was already sending Gregor out to the Riverlands to beseige them, and Jaime had an army that had taken RR. Going there would've been the most retarded idea ever. Sorry dude.

7. Allowing Lysa to take control of the trial: She mentions that Lysa is not herself, and seems to be going insane, yet she allows Lysa to take control of her prisoner and try him against how she would have conducted the trial. Had she insisted on trying Tyrion fairly, or left the Eyrie with her prisoner some misunderstanding may have been avoided later.

How, pray tell, was she supposed to "take back power from" her crazy sister, who was Lady Paramount of the Vale by marriage? Whose knights were loyal to her and Jon Arryn's son? How was CAT supposed to do that with an unwieldy crew of bannermen and sellswords? Again, out of Cat's control.

8. Poor military consulting: every time Robb makes a plan she tries to oppose it, they inevitably argue, he carries out the plan, and every time his plans work. The first time he takes input on a plan is the Red Wedding, but we'll get to that.

She does not always give terrible advice. Please name all the advice she gives that is bad? I don't recall anything except her releasing Jaime, and that wasn't advice, it was action. Robb was the one who broke the alliance with the Freys by marrying Jeyne Westerling. NOT CAT!

9. Staying with her dying father... who's been dying for... 10 years...: it's not like he started dying when she got there. If she'd wanted to see him she should have come when the realm was at peace. Instead she puts off returning to the 2 vulnerable boys in Winterfell, while threats come in of Ironborn attacking the coasts of the North

Her boys were well guarded until Ser Rodrik stupidly left Winterfell barely guarded to defend another castle. This was something Cat COULD NOT HAVE ANTICIPATED. AGAIN.

10. Trying to broker peace between the Baratheons: she knows the reputations of both, and has seen the strength commanded by either. she fully understands that neither of them will back down, yet insists on sticking around to see how it turns out. As a result she ends up with the blame for a dead king on her hands.

Um, Robb SENT her on that mission? She didn't ask for it! And no one blamed Cat - they blamed Brienne. WTH?

11. Releasing Jaime: Obviously her biggest mistake. What was she thinking? Trusting the Kingslayer's word, to persuade the Lanisters to return hostages after they've already received their main sword back, and her son remains in open war with them... I don't even need to explain how stupid this is.

Sure, this was a politically bad move, but only in hindsight. She didn't know the Battle of the Blackwater had been won and that Tywin was in KL - Cat assumed she was dealing with Tyrion. And actually, Jaime does give Brienne a mission and half of Ice to find Sansa and Arya and keep them safe. So this did bear some fruit.

If she hadn't released Jaime, he wouldn't have lost his hand. This neutralized a perilous enemy as a swordsman - but Cat couldn't have anticipated that either. Do you need her to be a psychic or something?

12. Persuading Robb and his army to go to the Twins: She knows better than anyone how petty the Freys are, and she knows that Robb was completely wrong in taking Jeyne Westerling as a wife, yet she insists on going to the Twins to apologize. By believing that Walder would honor the guest right she doomed her son's entire cause.

It wasn't ONLY Cat's decision. Robb NEEDED to cross the Twins to get to the North, so he NEEDED the Freys. What other choice did they have? Build barges to get all 10,000 Northman across that river? You think she could've foreseen Roose Bolton betraying them and brokering a deal with Tywin? Psychic hotline?

I'm reluctant to include her actions as Lady Stoneheart, as I'm not sure if she is entirely in control of her actions any more, but if she is, her mistakes continue to pile up.

Killing Freys is bad? I'll agree she treated Brienne horribly but you must admit, it looked fishy without proper explanation, and for the love of the gods, Stoneheart had been dead THREE F-ING DAYS when Beric Dondarrion gave her the kiss of fire. She's a walking brain rotted corpse! She is NOT the real Catelyn.

Overall I understand Catelyn's motivations, and know that she was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, at all times, but every decision she made turned out to be the wrong one. It's quite sad really.

Every decision? Not true. But yes, Cat was caught up in some terrible circumstances and situations where the outcome was unforeseeable. Kinda like Robb, or Ned, or plenty of characters in these books. Why single Catelyn out?

[Silmarien]

I can't even.. not again :bang:

I hear ya. Sigh.

[deleted01]

I hear ya. Sigh.

:lol: Well at least you tried, your post before this is huuuuuge! I just do not have the strength to keep getting into discussions like this :drunk:

[deleted01]

I'm sorry it's probably a common topic, but I wasn't around to argue it before. Like I said she's a good character with good intentions, but it just seems that nothing ever goes right for her, and that's all I wanted to discuss.

Sorry if I seem rude, but discussions like this never go well. Expect the worst, my friend.

[Silmarien]

Fair enough, like I said I'm painting a pretty bad image of Catelyn here, and I'm glad to see that she did make some good decisions (Theon being the most important in my mind), but with the Baratheons what I mean to say is that when it was clear that i would come to battle Catelyn should have cut her losses and run instead she stuck around, ran at the worst possible moment, and was blamed for Renly's death, and it isn't her fault that Petyr lied, but she shouldn't have trusted him so easily.

I'm sorry it's probably a common topic, but I wasn't around to argue it before. Like I said she's a good character with good intentions, but it just seems that nothing ever goes right for her, and that's all I wanted to discuss.

Nothing goes right for MANY characters though. Robb, Ned, Jon (ADWD), Stannis (TWoW looking better but still, in a Napoleon situation with Russia here and SNOW), Renly, Margery, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Pod, Davos, etc. Why single her out?

[Silmarien]

Fair enough, like I said I'm painting a pretty bad image of Catelyn here, and I'm glad to see that she did make some good decisions (Theon being the most important in my mind), but with the Baratheons what I mean to say is that when it was clear that i would come to battle Catelyn should have cut her losses and run instead she stuck around, ran at the worst possible moment, and was blamed for Renly's death, and it isn't her fault that Petyr lied, but she shouldn't have trusted him so easily.

I'm sorry it's probably a common topic, but I wasn't around to argue it before. Like I said she's a good character with good intentions, but it just seems that nothing ever goes right for her, and that's all I wanted to discuss.

Well, to be fair to you, you at least had well thought out points. Many posters just outright moan about what a huge flaming bitch Cat was and what a moron she is, instead of taking the time to argue it. That's why I took the time to respond to your points. They're just my opinion, and you're entitled to yours, but I enjoy discussion. :fencing:

[Blaer Dayle]

All good points Silmarien, I should probably say that I don't expect Catelyn to know the outcome of her actions, rather I find it sad that most of her decisions end in bad outcomes. I really do want to like Cat, but she has one of the most difficult arcs to like, as she is responsible for so much bad things happening, even if it is involuntarily, and through perfectly sound reasoning.

Most of the other characters who don't have things go right for them are only affecting themselves, Cat's decisions always seem to bring trouble for others, that's why I specifically mention Cat

[Sevumar]

Several people have already mentioned that she tried to dissuade Robb from sending Theon as an envoy to Balon Greyjoy, but Robb would have none of it. Catelyn generally did a good job of keeping her disagreements with Robb for private conversations instead of contradicting him in public and possibly undermining his standing with his vassals.

Just last night, I took note of something I think had slipped my mind in the past. Catelyn sees the folly of Edmure's plans at the Battle of the Fords and tells him to let Tywin Lannister's forces retreat westward unharried, but Edmure persists in his course of action. All of that is ultimately Robb's fault, but Catelyn did try to warn off Edmure there.

As I mentioned in the other thread, she saved Brienne's life, accepted her service, and helped prevent Brienne from throwing away her life in pointless vengeance.

In ASoS, we see evidence that she tried to help Lynesse Hightower adjust to life in the North when Lord Jorah and his new wife came to visit Winterfell. Everyone else seemed content to write her off as a lost cause, but Catelyn offered her personal experience and support to try to help Lynesse make the best of her situation.

[Scafloc]

Watch out Blair Dale! Nobody is allowed to criticize Catelyn.

It is known.

[ElizaMartell]

Not this thread again.

Nudge me when Ran comes in to close this mess.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

well, Petyr was essentially her stepbrother, so she would have no reason to distrust him.

She told Ned that he knew Robert the boy, not Robert the king. She knew Petyr the boy, not Petyr the man.

[ElizaMartell]

Watch out Blair Dale! Nobody is allowed to criticize Catelyn.

It is known.

Not when most of the complaints against her amount to people acting like half the problems in Westeros is her fault. But go on then. It is known.