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The Bastard of Bolton

[Book Spoilers] Littlefinger/Cersei

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I don't see the point in having a forum dedicated to episode one if all the threads are just generalized. Let us have some focus people!

Now that you've seen the scene in context do you feel differently about it than before?

I really felt it wasn't as detrimental to the character as the honchos of this site made it seem.

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Remember to tag posts properly with the level of spoiler -- see the rules and faq at the top of the forum.

I'm going to assume this will lead people discussing the books and details from them, so I've set it as a Book Spoiler level.

Looking at the commentary in the book spoiler thread, quite a few people seem that the scene was uncharacteristic for Littlefinger.

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It wasn't exactly like Littlefinger to test the waters like that but I don't think it really hurts the character. He doesn't come off as any more of a threat to Cersei (less, if anything) so it doesn't change his chances to avoid being murdered or to pull off what he does. His brilliance is only truly shown in the book after his actions are exposed and this doesn't change how you can do that. Since it doesn't set up any hinders I don't care too much about the change. Nitpicking doesn't get me anywhere.

The scene is for me about two things. To show that Cersei does wield power, despite that she's lost control over Joffrey, and, more importantly, it's a commentary on the subject of power. It will obviously tie in thematically with the discussion Varys and Tyrion will have (as heard in a trailer). In that sense it works well.

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It did not bother me that much except for the guard drilling wich was a very weak way to make a point about power.

Joffrey scene seemed a bit off though, he's too insecure to threaten Cersei. If he can do that what is he going to do when Tyrion kicks the shit out of him/

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Think about it though the Joffrey scene makes you hate him even more.Oppose this to what Robb Stark looked like-fairly cool,and you see what theyre setting up the viewers to feel.

LF and Varys always seem funny to me.They hold power through knowledge and manipulation but neither have strength of arms.This portrays that fact very well.It allows Cersei to save face after Joffrey acting up but also lulls people into a false sense of security about Petyr which is just where he is most dangerous

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I actually thought it was a clever scene. Yes, it seemed out of character for Littlefinger to show his hand but it also reminded viewers that he is a player in the games and pointed out that the one holding the knowledge holds a very powerful weapon indeed.

But I think the focus of the scene is more on Cersei. She says "Power is power" but the only true power she displayed is that she has paid for the loyalty of her guards. It's amusing to those of us who've read the books because we know that Cersei really starts to tumble when she loses those she's paid to be loyal to her. Without her paid mercenaries, she's not really anything. She's been replaced as advisor to the king by Tyrion. She's on notice with Joffrey. Her power is fleeting.

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I think an important part of the LF-Cersei exchange was what she said to get it started, of a story about an upstart (LF) growing up in a household above his rank (Tully) and loving the eldest daughter (Cat) but not being able to have her. It appeared to me that this part of the exchange is setting up the understanding of the events in Book 3 (probably season 4 of the HBO series) and the Sansa story.

This probably was a warning from Cersei as well that if LF had any special love for the Tullys and thus the Starks she was keeping an eye on him. Seems inconsistent with his betrayal of Ned Stark but she is paranoid, Cat's husband is dead, and LF might still have notions of marrying her someday.

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The scene is still clearly uncharacteristic for Littlefinger, but it is not nearly as bad as I believed it would be:

1. Littlefinger does not throw the twincest directly into her face. He merely brings the topic up after Stannis has sent his letters. It is more a reference to a rumor, not a threat to against Cersei/Jaime or Joffrey's claim to the Iron Throne.

2. Cersei starts this whole thing by provoking Littlefinger with his past with Catelyn. TV-Littlefinger is still obsessed with Cat, he has not yet replaced Cat with Sansa in his mind (this will, no doubt, come after he interacts with Cat at Renly's camp).

3. Cersei apparently does not really feel threatened by Littlefinger's words. She tries to teach him a lesson what truly is power, and, I think, this is coherent with both the TV- and book-Cersei. Both seem to believe that those atop the food chain can decide by decree what is true or false.

Of course, the real Littlefinger would not make such a mistake. He would not let allow himself to be provoked but such a remark. But I guess he would have heard stuff about his humble past again and again even as Master of Coin. And he would be pissed about this. But he would hold his tongue. Littlefinger does not threaten, he is not even particularly aggressive when he declares to somebody (Tyrion in ACoK) that from now on they will be mortal enemies. Remember, the whole 'Please keep me out of your little intrigues from now on'-thing?

I'd have preferred it if Littlefinger had been portrayed more as a funny guy whose cunning and depths are only gradually revealed, but unfortunately they did not go that way in the series.

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Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want' date=' they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometime the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you.[/quote']

Seems quite in character, actually.

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Except it's pretty clear that this wasn't a move to baffle or confuse -- he was trying to be clever and then nearly needed a new set of pants because of the mess he made. ;)

I don't think Littlefinger's supposed to be a brilliant thespian -- when he's genuinely shocked or surprised, he'll show it if it's a big enough problem facing him.

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I did agree with the site's review. At one point I had to question if they had brought on a new actor, because it did not even seem like the same acting style from the previous season. I thought it was uncharacteristic for the character in both the book and the TV show last season.

My bigger problem with the scene was that it was gratuitous. I'm worried that the producers are running away with the material - they've found what the viewers like and now they're over-embellishing on it. The scene was pretty pointless and it's troubling why they chose to write it and leave out comedic gold like Tyrion's: "it doesn't seem fair why you should open your legs for one brother and not for the other" comment.

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I thought it was unrealistic for both characters - I love the way Lena Headey plays Cersei, but I don't like the direction they appear to be taking her this season. I felt that Littlefinger would never allow himself to get caught up in such a way - he's more clever than that.

We'll see. Littlefinger isn't my favourite character, but he is brilliant in his own way, and it's a shame they seem to be changing that.

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I don't see the point in having a forum dedicated to episode one if all the threads are just generalized. Let us have some focus people!

Now that you've seen the scene in context do you feel differently about it than before?

I really felt it wasn't as detrimental to the character as the honchos of this site made it seem.

Same here. Although I wasn't thrilled with it, it just was no big deal to me ultimately. I thought it was going to ruin things, but it just wasn't a big deal to me.

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The thing is, I thought LF was going to randomly bring the incest up. He didn't. Cersei first insults him and after that he retaliates with something that really is well known since we know that the characters know about the 'rumours' spread by Stannis' letters. Sure, it was clumsy, but it wasn't bad at all.

On the other hand, it doesn't make sense that he says "Knowledge is power" since more or less everyone has heard of the twincest by that time.

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To me, this scene was similar to the way Littlefinger acted around Varys last season, and I don't see it as being any huge difference from the books.

He's brilliant, not perfect. He can slip up, and I LOVED how the scene made Cersei look.

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Thanks for the title change, I should have consider that.

I don't have much time but just came in to mention that a lady coworker that I turned onto the show a few months ago actually approached me and said this was her favorite scene. This is coming from a very casual viewer who thinks that Daenerys's name is Khalesi lol.

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A better demonstration of power would've been for her to have one of the guards kill himself.

:)

Just kidding, though that scene in the original Conan movie was great. "Steel is strong, but flesh is stronger."

The added scene here didn't bother me. It helps show Cersei's views and that Littlefigner isn't infallible in reading everyone around him. He's too perfect from a Machavellian point of view in the book, for my tastes. He's human and the additional interactions between him and Varys, and now Cersei, show this a bit more.

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I liked the scene. Yes, it is a little different from what we see of Littlefinger in the books... that's okay with me. I did not find it 'poorly written' or 'ham fisted' at all.

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I get why it was there. The showrunners are trying to establish Cersei as more of a force. However, this exchange could've gone a hundred different (better) ways and accomplished the same goal. Littlefinger could've said any number of different things to piss Cersei off, and none of them had to be a direct jab at her -- mentioning the fact that other people were discussing the feasibility of her incest would've been enough -- it distances himself from the talk, yet still would push Cersei to react. Littlefinger isn't an emotional player. He can take a jab. I didn't like seeing him buckle over a snide remark by Cersei.

Littlefinger: "The smallfolk have much to discuss given these recent rumors, which are disgraceful, Your Grace...yadayadayada...they believe they have knowledge...yadayadayada...knowledge is power."

Cersei flips out, plays Simon Says, "Power is power! Bring me the tongues of whoever speaks these lies."

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I'm thinking the scene may have actually been uncharacteristic for Cersei as well. "Power is power!" sounds like something Robert would say, whereas Cersei has always played the game from the shadows, manipulating others for more cloak & dagger work.

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