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[Book Spoilers] Where is Catelyn Stark and what has HBO done with her?


fauxkaren

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As much as I love the books and the show alike I have to say that suggesting that the story line is adversely affected by Rob and Cat`s differences from page to script regarding the war is a little premature. Its simply a more palatable way of telling the gist of the story on screen. If you have read the books you know how important these details are in the long run. The Red Wedding puts all this to rest.

But the plot points are just machinery to meet great characters, not the other way around. It's not about the plot line, it's about the human beings.

And the reason this is (making a mother want to go home to prove she's a good mom, taking away her role in the war narrative) more palatable is a problem.

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I'm just gonna control C control V myself because I see this Tyrion polemic has showed up again:

about Tyrion's polemic arrest:

it was TYRION who acted on a whim outing Catelyn in front of everyone when she was clearly incognito, in a random inn with only one companion. TYRION was the one who started a confrontation and backed Cat into a corner, forcing a desperate reaction out of her. He knew something was going on with the Starks, not only for the strangeness of the situation itself, but he had already been mistreated by Robb in Winterfell. He subestimated Cat, though, and never though she could overcome his money, guards AND his status as queen's brother with nothing but the authority of her voice. Power is power after all.

What was the option, pray tell, when the man who murdered your brother-in-law (people seem to forget about Lysa's letter) and tried to murder your son TWICE appears with a bunch of guards and backs you into a corner?

Did you ever think that Cat might have been fearing she would have been taken hostage herself, or even killed the moment she stepped out of the inn?

Tyrion thought he had her cornered, but Cat fought, and won. And if you hadn't been inside Tyrion's mind and knew he wasn't the culprint thanks to your god-like perspective, you would have cheered and congratulated Cat... who knows how many of you did anyway, I know I did.

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But the plot points are just machinery to meet great characters, not the other way around. It's not about the plot line, it's about the human beings.

And the reason this is (making a mother want to go home to prove she's a good mom, taking away her role in the war narrative) more palatable is a problem.

Would the true "human" mother be more motivated by war...? or family. I think it makes her even more noble. I don't see an issue with this angle.
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But this is a strawman. It's fine to show Robb's story. They don't need to change Catelyn, give her ideas to Robb, change her motivations and desire to stay on the battlefield, to show Robb's story. I welcome Robb's story, his battles, everything. But changing Cat in reaction to that is a separate issue and it's unnecessary to give fans handsome, epic Robb. If Catelyn wants to stay, if she gets to be the voice of peace she is meant to be, that does not make Robb look immature. What made Robb immature is marrying Jeyne, and I believe he will still do that in the show.

It's not a strawman - I'm not constructing a false argument and then arguing against it. I'm making an argument about different media; we need to see Robb Stark, and we need to care about his character, his struggle, and eventually his death. Part of that means making him more mature and intelligent than he appears in the book. So giving him some understanding that he needs allies in his war - and keep in mind, it's couched in military terms, not peace terms (he wants Renly's 100,000 swords first and foremost) - is part of making him a more intelligent character.

And I'm not in favor of changing Catelyn; indeed, I think they could have still preserved her thinking - by having her emphasize more making peace with Renly and Robb emphasizing wanting his army - while giving us a sense that Robb understands the political dynamics of his war.

I don't exactly understand this point, could you explain it to me? Cat doesn't want to just go home and shut out the world in the books. She sues for peace not to escape reality but to preserve and because she refuses to fight a war for the purpose of vengeance.

Yes, she explicitly does. She says she wants to go home to Winterfell, keep her family around her, and never leave - she doesn't really think or care about what's going to happen to her brother, she doesn't really do a careful analysis of whether her prisoner exchange with Jaime is going to work (or even confirm Tyrion's offer via raven before releasing Jaime) and whether he'll keep his word, she's acting in a desperate fashion. She doesn't think about whether the Lannisters who are by this point known for their utter ruthlessness in dealing with enemies and who have been shown to violate the laws of war when they brought in assassins under a white flag would actually leave the Starks alone once they retreated back ot the North.

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Tyrion thought he had her cornered, but Cat fought, and won. And if you hadn't been inside Tyrion's mind and knew he wasn't the culprint thanks to your god-like perspective, you would have cheered and congratulated Cat... who knows how many of you did anyway, I know I did.

How was Tyrion cornering Catelyn? He basically said "hello, I just stopped in at your home and you weren't there." I agree that Catelyn's decision to grab him had merit, but let's acknowledge that she had other options, she could have pretended she didn't know anything about the conspiracy and just said "yes, I was visiting my husband in the capitol, so nice to see you" and gone on her way.

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I would go ahead and add that I actually didn't see Robb's scenes with Jaime or the peace terms to prove him to be incredibly mature, even on the show. They were both bits of theater--beautiful theater, sure, especially for Stark enthusiasts. :P But Robb confronting Jaime about the incest or knowing the details of Bran's fall served no strategic purpose. He was angry and he wanted to use Grey Wind to frighten him; it was all an elaborate bluff. With the added detail of the subtle hints about how he and Grey Wind are connected.

As for the peace terms, he never meant for them to be taken seriously; they were even more ridiculous than his terms in the book. ("Give me everything I want and I'll leave you alone"? That's it? At least there were a couple hostage exchange proposals in the novel.) The people who fell for it (and I'm very much including myself here) a) probably think Richard Madden is a fine actor and B) are secret Stark bannermen salivating at all the tough talk of revenge. It's a "badass" speech, same as in the book. Badass speeches sound great, but in the end they're all a bunch of talk. Sure, he's standing on the shoulders of his military victories and saying "yup, proved I'm a tough guy." Will that make the war end and give him the kingdom he wants?

Obviously not; that possibility comes from Cat negotiating an agreement with Renly. So not that it's unfeasible that Robb might recognize that on his own, but it's a shame because he's already proven himself to be a little hot-headed. Keeping the lines the same (eg Cat wanting to go to Renly and Robb wanting her to go home) might help explain the complexities in his character as well--that he's a good military strategist, and of course devoted to the idea of avenging his father--but that he has blind spots in his strategy. Blind spots that Cat fills by volunteering herself as a negotiator, though Robb (and some of fandom) don't fully appreciate her for it.

Robb/Catelyn is one of my favorite relationships in the entire series, if not my favorite, and I'm sad that in the show Cat will perhaps have more time to shine away from her son. (Though I am assuming that she will give him good advice about remembering his duty rather than getting involved with "Jeyne," at least. And dare I hope that maybe, after she comes back from Renly's, she'll decide on her own, "ok, no Winterfell, Robb, because you need me more"? Am I being too optimistic? Alas.)

I hate disliking Stark aspects of the show. :-/ Especially since Michelle and Richard are both such fine actors.

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Would the true "human" mother be more motivated by war...? or family. I think it makes her even more noble. I don't see an issue with this angle.

"Human" and "noble" are not synonyms. Theon Greyjoy is a true human no less than Ned Stark.

And there are mothers of all kinds.

And Catelyn is not motivated by war, she is the only one who speaks for peace in Robb's camp (HBO cut this down). But she is trying to protect her children actively by being at Robb's side instead of going home. Active vs passive. Conviction of herself vs a room full of only men in a deeply patriarchal macho society.

So: Catelyn's not motivated by war. Humanity is not limited to nobility. Mothers don't have to be a certain one way to be true mothers. That is the entire point, really. A single motherhood ideal is a terribly sexist notion.

In any case I believe you are mixing your argument threads. The point I responded to was the idea that if it doesn't affect the plot line, it's a non-issue. I disagree with that; plot lines aren't the top priority here, the human drama is.

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Yes, she explicitly does. She says she wants to go home to Winterfell, keep her family around her, and never leave - she doesn't really think or care about what's going to happen to her brother, she doesn't really do a careful analysis of whether her prisoner exchange with Jaime is going to work (or even confirm Tyrion's offer via raven before releasing Jaime) and whether he'll keep his word, she's acting in a desperate fashion. She doesn't think about whether the Lannisters who are by this point known for their utter ruthlessness in dealing with enemies and who have been shown to violate the laws of war when they brought in assassins under a white flag would actually leave the Starks alone once they retreated back ot the North.

But she refuses to be sent home. Yes she wants to get home but she doesn't want to leave unless the war is over. While it is on she believes she is useful at Robb's side. I don't recall where she says she never wants to leave. She absolutely cares what happens to her brother, she prays for him, and if they had all sued for peace that only makes it more likely that they would not be crushed by Lannisters. She wants peace, that means more people survive including Edmure. The Lannisters did not want to incur the Starks into war, it was a fuck-up by Joff's part. They'd have to get past the Neck if they wanted to do anything, and that's not insignificant. That's been a cornerstone of northern security and isolation for a long time.

It's not a strawman - I'm not constructing a false argument and then arguing against it. I'm making an argument about different media; we need to see Robb Stark, and we need to care about his character, his struggle, and eventually his death. Part of that means making him more mature and intelligent than he appears in the book. So giving him some understanding that he needs allies in his war - and keep in mind, it's couched in military terms, not peace terms (he wants Renly's 100,000 swords first and foremost) - is part of making him a more intelligent character.

By that logic we need to care about Cat's character too. To care about Cat, all we need to see is that she just wants nothing but to go home to her babies. To care about Robb, we need to see he's more intelligent. You don't see anything gendered about that?

Does Stannis needing Davos as a counselor make Stannis seem less mature, less intelligent? Do they worry about Jorah making Dany look less intelligent? It is only because Robb is a boy trying to be a man and Cat is a female parent that this argument has any appeal, and it's a problematic appeal. All kings need advisors, it is not a weakness. And if that advisor is your mother, that can be seen as a weakness in Westeros, but why do modern audiences want to defend bullshit sexist Westerosi attitudes? Audiences should not need it. And if they do, then showing what Cat faces as she struggles to remain relevant in a sexist world that won't let her is the way to do it.

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I disagree. It was a decision at the end of her wits as it was based in a futile attempt to see her daughters again by putting her hopes in the good nature of... the Lannisters. It's a terrible decision, but it's interesting to read about because she's broken at that point.

How are you disagreeing? I do agree that it was a desperate act, and a poor decision. What I was saying, was that it didn't actually affect her or Robb in any significant way in the long run so politically it wasn't the huge-ass blunder many people claim it was. Although, with Lady Stoneheart about to kick his ass, who knows... :lol:
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"Human" and "noble" are not synonyms. Theon Greyjoy is a true human no less than Ned Stark.

And there are mothers of all kinds.

And Catelyn is not motivated by war, she is the only one who speaks for peace in Robb's camp (HBO cut this down). But she is trying to protect her children actively by being at Robb's side instead of going home. Active vs passive. Conviction of herself vs a room full of only men in a deeply patriarchal macho society.

So: Catelyn's not motivated by war. Humanity is not limited to nobility. Mothers don't have to be a certain one way to be true mothers. That is the entire point, really. A single motherhood ideal is a terribly sexist notion.

In any case I believe you are mixing your argument threads. The point I responded to was the idea that if it doesn't affect the plot line, it's a non-issue. I disagree with that; plot lines aren't the top priority here, the human drama is.

I'm not mixing anything. "A single motherhood ideal is a terribly sexist notion." What? it's honorable in a world that values politics over reason!

You are saying that theon is as honorable as Ned? wow

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1. In the books, it is Catelyn who suggests to Robb that they go to Renly in order to try to get the Baratheon brothers to work together to take down the Lannisters.

Where in the books does Catelyn suggest this to Robb? We see Catelyn and the Blackfish discussing the need to make Lord Twyin venture out of Harrenhal and both mention Renly. When next we see Catelyn, she's been dispatched by Robb to treat with Renly though she resisted and wished to remain at Riverrun with her dying father. There's nothing to suggest that she gave the idea to Robb, or that Robb and his captains hadn't already had the idea of seeking the alliance. After all, it's hardly a masterstroke of strategy to see the enemy of one's enemy as a potential friend.

4. And finally and most aggravatingly, I was upset at her line about it being time for her to go home. I mean in the book she does want to see Bran and Rickon, but she knows that her duty right now is with Robb. So her wish to see Bran and Rickon in the books is more of a “I wish we were all safe in Winterfell” or a “I wish I could be in multiple places at once” type thing. In the book she makes a conscious choice to be with Robb because she knows that he needs her more at that moment in time (Robb is trying to stage a rebellion after all, while Bran and Rickon are far away from the fighting in the care of trusted guardians). But Robb is a typical teenager about it, trying to assert his independence and wanting his mom out of the way, so he tries to send her away to various places.

This isn't very fair to the character of Robb Stark. He is not at all a "typical teenager...trying to assert his independence and wanting his mom out of the way" - he's a leader in a civil war, far from his home base, struggling with life-and-death decisions and responsibilities his mother (and father, for that matter) never faced and will never face. His kingship and even his life are wholly dependent on lords and knights with doubtful loyalties and conflicting agendas. None of them are amenable to the idea of freeing Jaime Lannister for Sansa and Arya Stark, but this is his mother's relentless, public demand. His mother's presence and public demands do nothing to strengthen his position in the eyes of his supporters and could actively undermine it - and these supporters are not his teenage pals but hardened killers who prey on weakness like hyenas.

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I'm not mixing anything. "A single motherhood ideal is a terribly sexist notion." What? it's honorable in a world that values politics over reason!

You are saying that theon is as honorable as Ned? wow

I said that they are both human. You're the one bringing up the words noble and honorable as if that was anything I was talking about, but it wasn't. I said human drama. Human drama is not limited to noble or honorable people.

In any case Cat is not valuing politics or war over reason by staying at Robb's side. She is trying to protect her family. She would even put that above the political identity of Robb's kingdom or victory on the battlefield. So your points are moot. Cat is always looking out for her family, in the show and in the books. The difference is in the book she was allowed to do so with more recognition of her own agency and conviction of her usefulness. There was a component of the storyline that had to do with her status specifically as a woman on the battlefield (and not a reluctant one).

And in no world is the idea that there is only one kind of good or perfect mother honorable.

Where in the books does Catelyn suggest this to Robb?

The exact part you name is the suggestion. If Martin wanted us to think it was Robb's idea, he probably would have shown it or had Catelyn think how Robb had already thought of it. He did that when Catelyn had an idea that the Blackfish had already thought of, prompting her to think that he was always a few steps ahead of her. The implication is clearly that Catelyn had the idea to pursue an alliance with Renly, and Robb had the idea to send her to do it.

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How are you disagreeing? I do agree that it was a desperate act, and a poor decision. What I was saying, was that it didn't actually affect her or Robb in any significant way in the long run so politically it wasn't the huge-ass blunder many people claim it was. Although, with Lady Stoneheart about to kick his ass, who knows... :lol:

That gave the Lannisters the reason they needed to declare war on the Riverlands so yes, she affected tons of people's lives.

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What was the option, pray tell, when the man who

murdered your brother-in-law

(people seem to forget about Lysa's letter) and tried to murder your son TWICE appears with a bunch of guards and backs you into a corner?

Did you ever think that Cat might have been fearing she would have been taken hostage herself, or even killed the moment she stepped out of the inn?

Lysa didn't say that Tyrion murdered Jon Arryn, she was talking about the Lannisters as a whole. I don't remember anything about Catelyn arresting Tyrion out of any fear of him hurting her either. What she was afraid of was that it would come out that she had been to King's Landing because just as she could rally people to arrest Tyrion, she would know even more that those people wouldn't let Tyrion hurt her (if she had had that thought at all).

She made a rash decision without realizing what it could lead to. She very well knew that arresting the son of one of the most powerful men in the kingdom, who also happens to be quite ruthless, would stir up a lot of things.

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And if they do, then showing what Cat faces as she struggles to remain relevant in a sexist world that won't let her is the way to do it.

This. This!

What made Catelyn's story so compelling and interesting in the books was the themes of sexism and how she dealt with it and how the men treated her, including her young teenaged son. In the show, everyone knows that it is an adaptation and that some of the particulars will be changed. That in particular, Robb Stark's character will need to be built up somewhat for the screen and the limited POV structure won't work in this particular medium.

But instead of just tweaking particulars to make it work on the screen -- they actively validated the idea that Catelyn didn't belong at the table where the decisions were being made. They validated the idea that her place was at home with her babies. They validated the idea that she had nothing meaningful to contribute. They took away her contributions and her ideas and gave them to male characters who were portrayed as naive in the books. They reduced her character in service of the male. They took a huge theme of the books and changed the storyline to actively validate what the entire arc was critiquing.

They took away Catelyn's agency and they made her a reactive character rather than a proactive character.

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Keep in mind, we aren't going to experience the Scarlet Reception through Catelyn's eyes, with all her wrenching stream of consciousness.

And it will be less interesting as a result, IMO. It is Cat that wrenches every emotion out of that scene....not Robb.

I agree that the HBO PTB have marginalized TVCat, but I still have hope that they will build her back up as the season progresses. Season 1 saw a number of changes to her character so as to build alternative characters, and because it is TV, I can understand it. I simply don't care for the theory which supports that it must be done.

So far, it appears that strength in women (on HBO) is to be largely found in the Cercei/Dany wheelhouse, with a sprinkling of Melisandre thrown in for exotic good measure. Cat, by comparison, is not gorgeous (Cercei), young and of royal birth (Dany), or of exotic environs, matched by history and appearance (Melisandre). Cat, sadly, is just a noble woman, a mother of five. Pains me to type it but she's just not "sexy" enough as it is commonly defined by the greater audience demographic, be it TV or novels. And when I watched the "You Live or You Die" trailer, I got the distinct feeling that while GRRM may have loved Catelyn Stark, that affection is not shared by the current producers in equal measure. They spoke of strong women, in fact mentioned everyone save Catelyn, and the only mention of Cat was in the juxtaposition between Cercei and Catelyn as mothers going to great lengths to secure the safety of their children. The result? Catelyn is spayed, sexually, mentally, and soon enough, physically. It's bullshit, but there it is.

Treating with Renly/Stannis was Catelyn's idea, FTR. While she was speaking with The Blackfish, it is she that suggests the need for distraction, and The Blackfish who agrees that her's is a viable tactic. Robb's involvement does not come into it outside of giving her leave to act.

Ultimately, I imagine there should be some audience/reader unrest when the character you find most interesting, realistic, etc., is not the centerpiece. For me, I am disappointed that HBO is playing to cliche, the easier path to be certain, with Cat. I'm not suggesting she be presented as a MILF, but having her so completely sexually neutral is unfair, as well. And it's not like Michelle Fairley is an unattractive woman. Thin, yes. Unattractive, no. But maybe that's just me.

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I was rather dissatisfied with the way that Catelyn was written in 2x01 and am not feeling too confident about the way that the show is handling the Robb and Cat portion of the story. I mean, I understand that this is an adaptation and that things have to change, but I'm struggling with understanding WHY certain changes were necessary. The following is adapated from something I wrote on tumblr, but I thought it would be a good jumping off point for discussion.

Really, I think HBO just does not understand the Robb and Cat storyline. It seems like the show is playing Robb As Hero completely straight. I think part of that is a by-product of aging up the character. It’s kind of hard to sell Richard Madden as a Boy King. So in the books when Robb pulls the Grey Wind stunt with Cleos Frey, it’s immature posturing. But in the show when he does it with Jaime, I think we’re supposed to read it as him being bad ass which completely misses the point of his character (the point being Robb as a deconstruction of the idea of a boy king).

But the way Cat was handled was even worse. There were four big mistakes with the way Cat was written in 2x01.

1. In the books, it is Catelyn who suggests to Robb that they go to Renly in order to try to get the Baratheon brothers to work together to take down the Lannisters. I love that it is Catelyn who has the political mind to see this solution. The fact that in the show they gave that idea to Robb does away with the idea we see in the books that while Robb is a capable general on the battlefield, he needs help ruling because he's not skilled in politics and diplomacy. It also de-emphasizes Catelyn’s perceptiveness and cleverness.

2. I didn’t really like the fact that the only reason Cat gave for not sending Theon to Balon to treat was because Balon was untrustworthy. I mean, that is true, but in the books she relents and says that if Robb has to treat with Balon send someone else other than Theon. I think that in order for later events to be most impactful, it’s important that she tell Robb specifically to NOT send Theon. Her opposition to sending Theon also shows her wisdom. Theon is a HOSTAGE. He is their leverage over Balon. WHY WOULD YOU GIVE UP YOUR LEVERAGE, ROBB? Robb was letting his emotions and his affection for Theon make his decisions for him, so he ignored Cat's wisdom.

3. I was annoyed that Cat didn’t get her line about girls not being worth it. Catelyn knows how the world works and she knows that in Robb’s eyes his sisters aren’t worth giving up his prize hostage of Jaime Lannister. I mean, I believe Robb loves his sisters, but he also doesn’t want to risk angering his bannermen and they would be upset if he traded Jaime for Arya and Sansa. But with the line about girls not being worth it, it becomes explicit that Cat understands how the politics of it all is very gendered and how girls aren’t worth much in this game of thrones. And I think that is important to her character because she's a character who fulfills the gender roles of her society. She LIKES being a wife and mother and is generally traditionally feminine, but that doesn't prevent her from seeing how unfair her society is to women. I mean, I think we still got some of that it in the show, but it could have been done better and more explicitly.

4. And finally and most aggravatingly, I was upset at her line about it being time for her to go home. I mean in the book she does want to see Bran and Rickon, but she knows that her duty right now is with Robb. So her wish to see Bran and Rickon in the books is more of a “I wish we were all safe in Winterfell” or a “I wish I could be in multiple places at once” type thing. In the book she makes a conscious choice to be with Robb because she knows that he needs her more at that moment in time (Robb is trying to stage a rebellion after all, while Bran and Rickon are far away from the fighting in the care of trusted guardians). But Robb is a typical teenager about it, trying to assert his independence and wanting his mom out of the way, so he tries to send her away to various places. I feel like by changing things to have Catelyn want to leave Robb and be with Bran and Rickon, it’s like the showrunners are validating all the Catelyn Critics who complain about what a terrible mother she is for abandoning Bran and Rickon which is just... not true.

All of these things might seem like minor changes, but there are specific shades of meaning and nuances and complexity in the original text that I think were lost in the adaptation to screen and I just don't understand why those changes were made. The only reason I can see is that the writers don't fully understand Catelyn as a character and subsequently those changes didn't seem like all that big of a deal. But I guess that to me, as someone who loves the character in the books, those changes just really stood out to me and didn't sit well with me at all.

So...you think Cat is awesome and HBO is making her look less awesome?

I hated her from the books and actually like her on the show.

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They reduced her character in service of the male. They took a huge theme of the books and changed the storyline to actively validate what the entire arc was critiquing.

They took away Catelyn's agency and they made her a reactive character rather than a proactive character.

And no amount of trotting out your stars to say how strong the women are or how feminist the books are will make this anything but bullshit.

I agree that the HBO PTB have marginalized TVCat, but I still have hope that they will build her back up as the season progresses. Season 1 saw a number of changes to her character so as to build alternative characters, and because it is TV, I can understand it. I simply don't care for the theory which supports that it must be done.

There was nothing necessary about the changes to Cat's character. It didn't need to happen to feature Robb more, it doesn't facilitate the plot more easily. It's just a validation of some of the sexist reasons that people hate Cat (not all reasons are sexist, but the ones they are validating are).

I don't know what they can do about it now other than have her change her mind and insist on staying with Robb once Winterfell falls. That is the least they can do at this point.

So far, it appears that strength in women (on HBO) is to be largely found in the Cercei/Dany wheelhouse, with a sprinkling of Melisandre thrown in for exotic good measure. Cat, by comparison, is not gorgeous (Cercei), young and of royal birth (Dany), or of exotic environs, matched by history and appearance (Melisandre). Cat, sadly, is just a noble woman, a mother of five. Pains me to type it but she's just not "sexy" enough as it is commonly defined by the greater audience demographic, be it TV or novels. And when I watched the "You Live or You Die" trailer, I got the distinct feeling that while GRRM may have loved Catelyn Stark, that affection is not shared by the current producers in equal measure. They spoke of strong women, in fact mentioned everyone save Catelyn, and the only mention of Cat was in the juxtaposition between Cercei and Catelyn as mothers going to great lengths to secure the safety of their children. The result? Catelyn is spayed, sexually, mentally, and soon enough, physically. It's bullshit, but there it is.

Treating with Renly/Stannis was Catelyn's idea, FTR. While she was speaking with The Blackfish, it is she that suggests the need for distraction, and The Blackfish who agrees that her's is a viable tactic. Robb's involvement does not come into it outside of giving her leave to act.

Ultimately, I imagine there should be some audience/reader unrest when the character you find most interesting, realistic, etc., is not the centerpiece. For me, I am disappointed that HBO is playing to cliche, the easier path to be certain, with Cat. I'm not suggesting she be presented as a MILF, but having her so completely sexually neutral is unfair, as well. And it's not like Michelle Fairley is an unattractive woman. Thin, yes. Unattractive, no. But maybe that's just me.

And this is all another excellent point. It's clear that HBO gets sexy evil queen Cersei, sexy evil witch Melisandre, sexy dragon queen Dany, and tomboy Arya. Anyone who thinks that getting some kinds of women eradicates any possibility of sexism is naive. Joss Whedon may have done great with Zoe Washburne on Firefly, but that doesn't mean he didn't write some problematic bullshit for Inara Serra.

Pop culture already accepts girls who like boy things. Pop culture already has a million evil queens. Wanting a cookie or a gold star for that in 2012 is just dating yourself. The utter inability to see past the approximate stereotypes around Catelyn's character speaks poorly of their grasp of Martin's feminist themes, no matter how big they talk outside the show. If they love how multifaceted Cat is, why erase the facets. Money needs to be where their mouths are.

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Where in the books does Catelyn suggest this to Robb? We see Catelyn and the Blackfish discussing the need to make Lord Twyin venture out of Harrenhal and both mention Renly. When next we see Catelyn, she's been dispatched by Robb to treat with Renly though she resisted and wished to remain at Riverrun with her dying father. There's nothing to suggest that she gave the idea to Robb, or that Robb and his captains hadn't already had the idea of seeking the alliance. After all, it's hardly a masterstroke of strategy to see the enemy of one's enemy as a potential friend.

That's not entirely correct.

From Book 2:

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle . . . and make no mistake, Lord Tywin is not the Kingslayer. He will not rush in heedless. He will wait patiently for Ser Stafford to march before he stirs from behind the walls of Harrenhal."

"Unless . . ." said Catelyn.

"Yes?" Ser Brynden prompted.

"Unless he must leave Harrenhal," she said, "to face some other threat."

Her uncle looked at her thoughtfully. "Lord Renly."

"King Renly." If she would ask help from the man, she would need to grant him the style he had claimed for himself.

"Perhaps." The Blackfish smiled a dangerous smile. "He'll want something, though."

"He'll want what kings always want," she said. "Homage."

Catelyn is the first one who thinks of treating with Renly. Robb is the one who persuades her that she's the best choice to actually do the negotiating.

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What the writers seem to be doing with Catelyn is really upsetting me. In the original text, she was a pragmatic feudal lady with keen political insights, whose less competent teenaged son pushed her aside and wanted her to go away and leave him alone. A teenaged son who was portrayed as generally politically inept, and whose chest-thumping refusal to trade the Kingslayer for his sisters enabled the Red Wedding, a Lannister power grab through Sansa, and a Bolton power grab through a false Arya. The way that she has been adapted for the screen is, frankly, sexist. She was a politically smart and ambitious woman who was ignored for merely being a woman while a young teen ruined their House through misplaced trust and naiveté. She is hated by fans for, well, being a politically smart and ambitious woman who interferes with the male “heroes” and points out their poor decisions instead of going back to her babies where she belongs. So the way HBO decides to adapt her is to make Robb recite her lines from the book that show political insight, remove her from the table where the political decisions are being made, and validate all the misogyny being directed her way by having this adapted character say that her place is back with her babies (because, of course, that’s where a good woman belongs and should want to be!). In the books, she was *right* in almost every call she made — but her opinions are dismissed because she is a woman and Robb is 1) a rebellious teen; and, 2) has embraced some of the ingrained sexism of his society and doesn't want his bannermen to see him taking advice from Mom. The commentary here, which passes straight over the heads of a lot of fans, is really genius. If Robb *had* listened to mommy, House Stark would not have been demolished the way it was. And the writers chose to not only ignore that, but to diminish the female character so as to pump up the male — in a way that completely validates the misogyny targeting the character (a good woman’s place is with her babies and not involved in politics – in fact, if she’s involved in politics at all, it should be reluctantly!) but that also misses the point of the entire arc. My honest-to-God reaction was, WTF are you doing HBO? Catelyn's plotline deals heavily with themes of sexism. After Ned’s execution, she was calling for peace while the men around her chose war (and devastated the North and the Riverlands). Robb wanted her to go back to Bran and Rickon but she wanted to stay with him, where the future of their family was being decided. It was her idea to visit Renly to attempt to make an alliance, not Robb’s. She wasn’t entirely against sending an envoy to Balon, just not Theon. She wanted Ned to go south to become Robert’s Hand. Now, she’s been downgraded. One assumes that the reasons for it are three-fold: 1) To pump up Robb and make him sexier to the audiences instead of portrying the tragic boy king in over his head that he actually was; 2) to make her more palatable to audiences (because a woman’s place is with her babies, doncha know); and 3) to amend Cersei’s characterization as she gets the storyline of a son who has slipped her control instead. Congratulations on either completely missing the entire point of a character arc and plotline or demonstrating a stupendous level of sexism, all while validating the misogyny that permeates this fandom.

Actually Catelyn laments that she is treating with Renly in her chapter. It was Robb's idea to send her away - she'd have rather stayed by him and by her dying father, in the books.

I do dislike that they left out her advice to NOT SEND THEON to treat with Balon Greyjoy. And it was strange for her to say she wanted to go home. But I don't think it's fair to judge HBO as misogynist yet after only ONE episode - remember that trailer scene with her and Littlefinger? We don't know where her arc is going yet - I for one am not going to judge HBO as misogynist about Catelyn until I've seen more like 6-7 episodes.

Judging HBO on one episode is just silly. Besides, with the age gap, it's difficult for them to justify her constantly advising Robb (ie micromanaging, not in a broad sense - she still is an advisor and should remain one) or constantly criticizing his potential mistakes - he is 17-18, not 14.

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