ArrysOakheart Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Ok, so if the theory that Rhaegar and lyanna fathered Jon true, then why do people insist he would be a Targaryen? Rhaegar targaryen isn't married to lyanna stark so therefore wouldnt Jon snow still be a bastard and upon this revelation, grrm would refer to him as Jon Sands because he was born in dorne? It would be lame to have Jon snow change to Jon sands and it wouldn't provide any sort of impact as he'd be a bastard with no claim to the throne, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mummer's Arse Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 many targaryen's married more than one wife. Maybe Lyanna was his second wife ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmanion Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 With this theory it is a common belief that Rhaegar actually married Lyanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Lady Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 The Kingusguard was at the TOJ. Why would they guard a bastard? I'm pretty sure he's legitimate.I should probably add that I don't think his legitimacy will have any significance, his story is in the North, he has no business with the Iron Throne imo. And it doesn't depend on claims anyway. The reign goes to the one who can conquer the throne in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ame Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Ok, so if the theory that Rhaegar and lyanna fathered Jon true, then why do people insist he would be a Targaryen? Rhaegar targaryen isn't married to lyanna stark so therefore wouldnt Jon snow still be a bastard and upon this revelation, grrm would refer to him as Jon Sands because he was born in dorne? It would be lame to have Jon snow change to Jon sands and it wouldn't provide any sort of impact as he'd be a bastard with no claim to the throne, correct?Mummer already answered you, but it isn't really relevant because he joined the watch and now might be dead. The debate has always concerned Rhaegar and Lyanna more anyway which is why Ned Stark PoV chapters give most of the citations even though Jon Snow has plenty of his own PoV chapters. The glimpses we get into Rhaegar from everyone involved, and Ned Stark's memories of Lyanna suggest they ran off with each other and had a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pomp & Happenstance Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 The whole idea of him being a Targ isn't by status it's by blood. Any name issues or inheritance qualms aren't in discussion, it's whether or not he has the blood of the dragon...in addition to being a wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Proponents of the theory call him a Targaryen because a)he would have Targaryen dna, and b)patrilineally speaking, 'Targaryen' would be considered his 'true' identity because his father was Targaryen.As far as his bastard name, I'm not sure what kind of legal force one's original naming has in Westeros. His name may just stay Jon Snow, and it certainly wouldn't simply become Sand the moment he learned his (alleged) heritage.All that aside, Jon Snow is a Stark, no matter who his biological parents were. Whether Ned literally fathered him or not, the man raised him as his own, alongside his own children.P.S.: I just read this over, and I realized it does not at all make clear that I, myself, am a proponent of this theory, but I think Jon's identity as a Stark (and the fact that he would retain Stark blood via L) is just as important as whatever he may have inherited from Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Hodor Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Rhaegar and Lyanna might have married secretly, making him trueborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Ok, so if the theory that Rhaegar and lyanna fathered Jon true, then why do people insist he would be a Targaryen? Rhaegar targaryen isn't married to lyanna stark so therefore wouldnt Jon snow still be a bastard and upon this revelation, grrm would refer to him as Jon Sands because he was born in dorne? It would be lame to have Jon snow change to Jon sands and it wouldn't provide any sort of impact as he'd be a bastard with no claim to the throne, correct?SIGH!!!!!!!Targs have a history of polygamy. Sure no confirmed Targ has been polygamous since the wars with the Faith, but that doesn't mean Rhaegar didn't restore the tradition with Lyanna.If Jon is a bastard Targaryen he still has a claim - it sure didn't stop the Blackfyres, did it?Besides, I don't think his legitimacy is the issue here. I think the issue is him fulfilling the prophesy as TPWWP or AA reborn (though Dany fits the bill better, having woken dragons out of stone already). I don't see Jon ever wanting or taking the Iron Throne, so whether or not he is legitimate, his parentage DOES matter, even if he's a bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Wouldn't Jon become a Blackfyre instead of a Sand?I'm not a fan of R+L=J and I don't understand how they could have had a legitimate son. Who would have married them?To me, until proven otherwise, Jon Snow is a bastard and the son of Eddard Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Jon Snow's name wouldn't change to "Sand." Your bastard name does not depend on where you were born, it is given to you by your parents. Said parents may give you the usual regional bastard name, or even a completely different name of their own devising. Jon was given the name "Snow", so his name is "Snow."And besides, one of his parents is from the North regardless of which theory is correct, so he still has a right to the name "Snow" no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I'm not a fan of R+L=J and I don't understand how they could have had a legitimate son. Who would have married them?Remember Septon Meribald in AFFC? He is a wandering Septon who marries people, take their confessions etc. Or they could have found a Weirwood grove and married in front of the Old Gods instead.The facts are:1. The Kingsguard were guarding the Tower of Joy, where Lyanna was.2. The Kingsguard only guards the King of the Realm and not abducted women or bastards3. If Lyanna's son was a bastard, it means the Kingsguard should have all have been with Viserys, which they are not. Rhaegar's trueborn child will inherit before Viserys4. Targaryens practised polygamy in the past5. Ergo: Lyanna and Rhaegar were secretly married and Jon Snow is actually Jon I Targaryen, the first of his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Wouldn't Jon become a Blackfyre instead of a Sand?I'm not a fan of R+L=J and I don't understand how they could have had a legitimate son. Who would have married them?To me, until proven otherwise, Jon Snow is a bastard and the son of Eddard Stark.Any Septon loyal to Rhaegar could have presided over the wedding of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Or if they married according to the old gods, all they'd need was a heart tree and his KG witnesses. It's simple, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Wouldn't Jon become a Blackfyre instead of a Sand?No, Blackfyre is the name taken by a specific Targ bastard (and his descendants) who ended up being legitimized and rebelled against the throne. It is not a name that all Targ bastards take.I'm not a fan of R+L=J and I don't understand how they could have had a legitimate son. Who would have married them?They didn't need anyone to marry them, if they chose to marry in front of a heart tree according to northern tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thendel Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Jon was named Snow because Ned recognized him as his own bastard son. If Ned hadn't done that, Jon would be called Sand, considering that he was born at either ToJ (by Lyanna) or Starfall (by Ashara Dayne).If Jon is to be considered a part of the Targaeryen family, there must be some sort of documentation by Rhaegar. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally married, Jon should be called Targaeryen and is thus the heir to the Iron Throne after Aegon (who may well be fake). If they weren't, but Rhaegar still recognized Jon as his son, Jon should be called Waters (which is pretty funny, if you'd try to google it).At any rate, I very much doubt that such a document exists, nor anything that unquestionably makes Jon a Targaeryen in the eyes of everyone. The only way Jon's lineage will matter is if it will enable him to combat the Others through the blood of Valyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milcov Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 With this theory it is a common belief that Rhaegar actually married Lyanna/thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Jon was named Snow because Ned recognized him as his own bastard son. If Ned hadn't done that, Jon would be called Sand, considering that he was born at either ToJ (by Lyanna) or Starfall (by Ashara Dayne).No, see my above post. Bastard names do not depend on where you are born, they are bestowed by the parents, who usually choose one of the bastard names from their own region. So even if Jon was born as Rhaegar's acknowledged bastard, he would most likely receive the name "Snow" or "Waters." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrysOakheart Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Well I believe if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna then there most likely isnt any proof such as witnesses or documents to prove it as they did it in secret and the remaining kingsguard are dead, Ned is dead and Howland Reed is MIA nor has grrm hinted at his arrival in the next book. So how will it affect the actual war with Aegon landing and (hopefully) Dany on her way in the near future? Does he really need to be Targaryen to fight the others or be AA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Ramsay Snow/Ramsay Bolton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArrysOakheart Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Ramsay Snow/Ramsay Bolton.i get what ur saying but what reason would anyone at all want to legitimize jon?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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