Why Jon Snow is NOT A TARGARYEN!

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I've just thought of another reason this is true. Why would Rhaegar marry Lyanna? He never thought he was going to lose the war, he thought that they were gonna win, and since he had another son already(Aegon), why would he want him to have a contender? That doesn't really make any sense. More likely than not R+L=J but they were not married, he was doing it to fulfill the PtwP prophecy and nothing more, although he might have been intrigued by Lyanna and that's why he chose her, but what would he gain by marrying her and creating a contender for his first born son?

The dragon needs three heads. Rhaegar had two children with Elia, however, she couldn't have anymore after Aegon. So why wouldn't the crowned prince want another heir when he believed the prophesy?

[lady jellybean]

Please correct me if iam wrong, but I assumed that when they ran away they married under a weirwood tree cux lyanna kept the old gods. Ned had thr sept built for cat.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Please correct me if iam wrong, but I assumed that when they ran away they married under a weirwood tree cux lyanna kept the old gods. Ned had thr sept built for cat.

I believe this to be true--but of course, we don't know yet. We might find out in WoW, but we may have to wait for DoS to know for sure whether (and how) R&L were married. I think the clues that they were married are very strong (including that the 3 KG at ToJ appeared to be guarding the king--not a bastard), but until GRRM goes for the big reveal, we cannot know sure. My suspicion is that both ceremonies were performed, old gods/weirwood and faith/traveling septon. But at this point, it is only a guess.

[Demonkyn]

I think he does share some traits with Rhaegar, the lean physique, graceful, quick and intelligent.

He also seems quiet, solemn and melancholic much like Rhaegar but that only shows similarities not proof.

Personally i would like him to be the son of R+L but it's more like GRRM to seriously make him Ned son whose mother we will never see haha

Even if it does turn out he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna he certainly got screwed in the looks department lol Both of whom were described as beautiful i doubt anybody in Westeros would believe it even if it was proved.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Jon will never be a Targaryen , he was raised a Stark. Aegon is the only Targaryen they need . His appearance is more like a union between Rhaegar and Lyanna tall lanky ,blond hair ,and purple eyes lightened by grey eyes .

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Ok, so if the theory that Rhaegar and lyanna fathered Jon true, then why do people insist he would be a Targaryen? Rhaegar targaryen isn't married to lyanna stark so therefore wouldnt Jon snow still be a bastard and upon this revelation, grrm would refer to him as Jon Sands because he was born in dorne? It would be lame to have Jon snow change to Jon sands and it wouldn't provide any sort of impact as he'd be a bastard with no claim to the throne, correct?

Hasn`t this been discussed already?

[TheSpottedCat]

Wouldn't Jon become a Blackfyre instead of a Sand?

I'm not a fan of R+L=J and I don't understand how they could have had a legitimate son. Who would have married them?

To me, until proven otherwise, Jon Snow is a bastard and the son of Eddard Stark.

Bastard Targaryens aren't named Blackfyre. That is a misconception. Daemon Blackfyre's bastard half-brothers retained their bastard names, e.g. Brynden Rivers, Aegon Rivers. Blackfyre was the name chosen by Daemon, the bastard son of Aegon IV and Daena Targaryen because he didn't want to have a last name that branded him as a bastard. The name was inherited by his children, grandchildren, and all his descendants, who were actually legitimate. In any case, Daemon himself was legitimised by his father. So, Blackfyre is NOT the last name given to Targaryen bastards. Their name would most likely depend on where they were raised. For example, both Aegor and Brynden Rivers had mothers that came from the Riverlands, so they were most likely raised there, hence the name Rivers. If a Targaryen bastard was raised in King's Landing he/she would be probably named Waters. Jon was by all accounts not born in the North (irrespective of who's son he is), but he was raised there, hence he's a Snow.

[RightfulHeir]

I think that R+L=J is in fact true. The fact that someone would start a thread to try and discredit all of the evidence that has been brought forward is plain idiotic. There is currently over 100 threads on this website with countless pieces of evidence to support that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. I am in no way declaring the theory as fact, just extremely likely.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

The whole idea of him being a Targ isn't by status it's by blood. Any name issues or inheritance qualms aren't in discussion, it's whether or not he has the blood of the dragon...in addition to being a wolf.

This.

A Song of Ice and Fire...

Edit: though yeah, he technically isn't a Targaryen, but a Waters (father from the Crownlands). Since the Faith don't allow polygamy, even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, it would not be a legitimate marriage by Westerosi law. And so any children born from that marriage would not be legitimate. Aegon the Conqueror can kind of do what he likes 'cause he has three giant-ass dragons. Rhaegar not so much, cool as he might be.

[KINGpanther]

I think the fact Jon may have Targ (Valaryian) + Warg blood far out weighs any bastardry debate.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This.

A Song of Ice and Fire...

Edit: though yeah, he technically isn't a Targaryen, but a Waters (father from the Crownlands). Since the Faith don't allow polygamy, even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, it would not be a legitimate marriage by Westerosi law. And so any children born from that marriage would not be legitimate. Aegon the Conqueror can kind of do what he likes 'cause he has three giant-ass dragons. Rhaegar not so much, cool as he might be.

First -- a quibble -- it appears that the naming convention for acknowledged royal bastards is not based on where the father is born but where the child is raised. Thus, Robert has a bastard that go by Stone (Mya) and a different bastard that goes by Storm (Edric) -- even though both are acknowledged to have the same father -- because Mya was raised in the Vale and Edric in the stormlands. Accordingly, if Jon really is the bastard son of Rhaegar, he still would be Jon Snow as he was raised in the North.

As to whether Jon would be regarded as legitimate if his parents entered into a polygamous marriage -- you are assuming facts not in evidence. While we have some evidence that polygamy was not permitted in Westeros, we have no evidence that such a marriage would not be considered a marriage. For example, when Maegor I entered into a polygamous marriage, he was given the option of setting aside the marriage or going into exile -- he chose exile. No one suggested that the second marriage was not a marriage or could be regarded as something other than a marriage -- merely that Maegor could be punished for it.

The Faith also do not govern the legitimacy of marriages performed under other religions. So if Rhaegar and Lyanna married using a weirwood tree and the Northern tradition of the Old Gods (Lyanna was from the North), the Faith would have no authority regarding whether such a marriage is a marriage. And we have seen some wildings engage in polygamous marriages (Crater and Oldfather), so apparently polygamy is permitted by the Old Gods.

And while dragons might make it "easier" to engage in polygamy, that is not the same as saying that polygamy is otherwise impossible. Keep in mind that incest continued to be practiced even without dragons, and the Faith found incest to be a bigger sin than polygamy. So the rules of the Faith were not always applied to the royals -- even after dragons went away. If Rhaegar married Lyanna, presumably his plan was to bring his new wife and baby back to KL, and Rhaegar likely thought that with a baby in hand, Aerys (and Lyanna's father) would feel obligated to accept the second marriage.

Also consider that the song of TPTWP is the song of ice and fire. If Jon is the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified, then he is the PRINCE that was promised and not the BASTARD that was promised. So while his blood combining Targ and Stark traits is likely crucial to winning the Battle for the Dawn 2.0, the prophecy that seems to refer to Jon as the Prince that was Promised seems to suggest that his parents were married. There are other reasons that I believe that they were married (like the KG at ToJ apparently indicating to Ned that they cannot go to Viserys because they swore a vow -- the only vow that would seem to justify not going to Viserys is the vow to guard the King), but of course, we will all need to wait until GRRM reveals the truth to know for sure.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think that R+L=J is in fact true. The fact that someone would start a thread to try and discredit all of the evidence that has been brought forward is plain idiotic. There is currently over 100 threads on this website with countless pieces of evidence to support that Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. I am in no way declaring the theory as fact, just extremely likely.

The funny thing is that it doesn't even try to create a case against R+L=J. As far as I have seen no one have been able to really create a strong antiR+L=J theory.

[Bluetiger]

Targaryen bastards aren't named "Blackfyre". They have bastard surnames of region in which they were born/raised/live ( Brynden Rivers, Aegor Rivers )

Daemon was born and raised as Daemon Waters.

The identity of his father was kept secret until his twelfth birthday, when Daemon distinguished himself during a tourney melee by besting a score of other squires. Afterwards his father Aegon IV, who was already a king at the time, acknowledged Daemon as his bastard son and presented him with Blackfyre, the Valyrian steel sword of Targaryen kings.

He took the name of Blackfyre for his house and displayed the inverted Targaryen arms, a black three-headed dragon on red.

Blackfyres were members of House Blackfyre founded by Daemon, after Aegon IV legitimised him.

Known Blackfyres are:

- Daemon I

- his sons: Aegon, Aemon, Daemon II, Haegon I, Aenys

- Haegon's son Daemon III

- Daemon's daughter Calla, married to Aegor Rivers

- two other Daemon's son and unknown daughter

- Maelys I Blackfyre

- Maelys' cousin Daemon

[UnmaskedLurker]

Targaryen bastards aren't named "Blackfyre". They have bastard surnames of region in which they were born/raised/live ( Brynden Rivers, Aegor Rivers )

Daemon was born and raised as Daemon Waters.

Blackfyres were members of House Blackfyre founded by Daemon, after Aegon IV legitimised him.

Known Blackfyres are:

- Daemon I

- his sons: Aegon, Aemon, Daemon II, Haegon I, Aenys

- Haegon's son Daemon III

- Daemon's daughter Calla, married to Aegor Rivers

- two other Daemon's son and unknown daughter

- Maelys I Blackfyre

- Maelys' cousin Daemon

Nice history lesson -- thanks. :cheers:

[Dolorous22]

With this theory it is a common belief that Rhaegar actually married Lyanna

Also, I think we're reaching a point in the story where it's less about lineage and rights and more about the result of mixing the blood of the Wolf with the blood of the Dragon at that moment in time.

So it's less about having a Stark or Targ 'entitlement' and more about what type of person they have 'bred'.

It's like Luke having the 'Force' passed down to him from Anniken. Luke didn't need to inherit his fathers status, just his 'powers'. I think that's the true significance of his heritage and ultimately what he needs to realize. JS has the creme de la creme of Kingsblood in them veins of his, despite much and more of it currently turning the snow pink.

[a_motherf'ndragon]

Wouldn't Jon become a Blackfyre instead of a Sand?

I'm not a fan of R+L=J and I don't understand how they could have had a legitimate son. Who would have married them?

To me, until proven otherwise, Jon Snow is a bastard and the son of Eddard Stark.

Who would have married them, how's this for fun, the High Sparrow

[UnmaskedLurker]

Who would have married them, how's this for fun, the High Sparrow

Well, there also are traveling Septons who might have done the marriage for the right price. They also might have gotten married using the Old Gods method of a ceremony before a weirwood tree (and there are such trees in Riverrun) -- so no officiant might have been necessary.

[khal drogon]

Why they have to marry? I recall Rhaegar needed a third child for prophetic reason. It is not necessary that he should be legitimate. Rhaegar wouldn't have predicted his Aegon's death, his heir at that time. I don't know for what reason they would have married? And what is the need for a legitimate son.

For the presence of Kingsguard, they protected Rhaegar's bastard who can be legitimised if Targ side won,as their heir is already dead. Or Rhaegar believed his child is tPTWP and he ordered the KG to protect him.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Why they have to marry? I recall Rhaegar needed a third child for prophetic reason. It is not necessary that he should be legitimate. Rhaegar wouldn't have predicted his Aegon's death, his heir at that time. I don't know for what reason they would have married? And what is the need for a legitimate son.

For the presence of Kingsguard, they protected Rhaegar's bastard who can be legitimised if Targ side won,as their heir is already dead. Or Rhaegar believed his child is tPTWP and he ordered the KG to protect him.

Based on the little we know about Rhaegar, the prophecy was quite important to him -- perhaps the most important thing to him. He would not want to leave anything to chance. So making sure that the third head of the dragon was a legitimate royal child from birth likely would have been important to Rhaegar. And Elia could have no more children, and in the past we have seen issues arise with heirs dying prematurely -- so Rhaegar also might have wanted a "spare" (given that Viserys would come ahead of Rhaenys), but I doubt this issue was of paramount importance. No, I think more important was Rhaegar's belief that the prophecy needed three heads of the dragon, and Rhaegar would not want to risk whether a bastard could count as a head of the dragon.

Also, the KG knew the Targs had lost the war when they fought Ned -- but they still indicated that their oath required them to stay at ToJ rather than go to Viserys on DS. Such a statement really only makes sense if the oath at issue is to guard the king -- and Jon is king only if his parents were married. There was no one left at that point to legitimize Jon.

[khal drogon]

Based on the little we know about Rhaegar, the prophecy was quite important to him -- perhaps the most important thing to him. He would not want to leave anything to chance. So making sure that the third head of the dragon was a legitimate royal child from birth likely would have been important to Rhaegar. And Elia could have no more children, and in the past we have seen issues arise with heirs dying prematurely -- so Rhaegar also might have wanted a "spare" (given that Viserys would come ahead of Rhaenys), but I doubt this issue was of paramount importance. No, I think more important was Rhaegar's belief that the prophecy needed three heads of the dragon, and Rhaegar would not want to risk whether a bastard could count as a head of the dragon.

Also, the KG knew the Targs had lost the war when they fought Ned -- but they still indicated that their oath required them to stay at ToJ rather than go to Viserys on DS. Such a statement really only makes sense if the oath at issue is to guard the king -- and Jon is king only if his parents were married. There was no one left at that point to legitimize Jon.

While I agree with most of your points, I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar wanted a 'spare' heir and so he married some northern girl, the action which would risk the lives of his other children.