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Sansa and Tyrion predictions


wrdonerd

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i don't think so. as a big san/san lover it's obvious i think sansa and sandor are meant for each other, but at least i do think that tyrion is better for sansa than Littlefinger. & the posibility that G.R.R. Martin decides to let them remained man & wife when the war finally ends is quite possible. if this is the case, i think sansa would remain married to him and even come to respect him at times, but she wouldn't be in love with him. hopefully if this is the case they can both have lovers cause i don't see tyrion being that selfish and not allowing to have sandor or any other as her paramour.

their marriage was already a torment for both of them, so i'm sure neither wants to repeat the experience.

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Furthermore, people in the Westerlands think he offed Joffrey and know he killed Tywin so how secure do you think his claim to Casterley Rock is?

A cold-blooded patricide cannot legally inherit his father’s claim.

Not that that hasn’t happened before.

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I disagree with the assessment that its a cliche. It would be a sign of maturity that Sansa would be able to look past his appearance. She does, after all, admit to herself that Tyrion has always been kind to her. At least the relationship wouldn't be an unhealthy one like it would be with Sandor. That type of relationship would be as a batterer/abuser where he beats her one day or verbally cuts her down, and then we'd read some sick, twisted sex scene the next day. Yuck. He doesn't call her "little bird" as a sign of affection.

Uhhh, have you missed the part in ASOS where Sandor shows great remorse for standing by and letting others beat Sansa? Assaulting her in her bedroom was wrong, that can't be denied, but the night didn't end on a note of violence, but rather compassion and sympathy. When the Hound tears off his white cloak it's a sign that he's deeply ashamed for his behaviour. And their relationship wasn't characterised by violence either. He saves her and lies to protect her, all the while telling her the truth about the situation around her. She's grateful for this and appreciates him for it. You're not doing yourself any favours by trying to re-write the relationship as abusive and terrifying. Sansa has shown she is attracted to Sandor, and she's made it perfectly clear she does not want Tyrion. And btw, the nickname is a sign of affection. That's why it slips out at the most inappropriate times and even when he's not around her in ASOS.

Tyrion never raped Sansa (or anyone else for that matter ), nor lied to her, and if they did have a real marriage I believe he would be faithful. Why do you think he deserves a loveless marriage, or that he needs to be humbled? Tyrion has been subjected to bullying his whole life, and he never got the recognition or appreciation that he deserves.

Nobody thinks Tyrion deserves a loveless marriage, but why do you think Sansa does? And yes, Tyrion did lie to her, more than once.

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I want the Hound and Sansa to end up together in a great love match. He already loves her and I think her transformation from a silly little girl influenced by songs of knights and chivalry to a practical woman who sees beyond the outside into the inside will be complete. She knew he was not craven on the Blackwater from the fighting, but it was the fire that scares him so.

Sansa would be a great Queen but I think she will end up with Sandor up in Winterfell, or maybe at the Dreadfort once the Boltons are killed, with the Lord of Winterfell (one of her brothers) protecting them.

I sure hope Tyrion finds Tysha. I agee that the two "Ty" names seem to indicate they are meant to be together. He and Sansa will never find love. Too bad, he is my favorite character after Arya and I hope he finds happiness....

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I get why people want Sansa to arc from completely superficial princess to down-to-earth depth-filled self-actualized heroine, but is there anything to suggest GRRM likes similar dovetails?

Generally speaking, in a material sense, he rewards realpolitik about a third of the time, blind luck about 1/5th of the time, and

romanticized honor about none of the time.

Mostly you lose whatever you do, but discovering hidden depths doesn't seem to be a rewarding Westeros career plan.

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One word: Tysha.

BTW, isn’t it curious that she has a Ty- name, eh?

You got me there. However, I think we should give Tyrion the benefit of the doubt, as he is convinced by Tywin and Jaime (at the time) that Tysha was actually a whore, and Tyrion believes they are paying for a whore and not raping her. Turns out later we learn she actually was not a whore, and that she was indeed raped. But again, at the time, Tyrion believes he's paid a whore.

Uhhh, have you missed the part in ASOS where Sandor shows great remorse for standing by and letting others beat Sansa? Assaulting her in her bedroom was wrong, that can't be denied, but the night didn't end on a note of violence, but rather compassion and sympathy. When the Hound tears off his white cloak it's a sign that he's deeply ashamed for his behaviour. And their relationship wasn't characterised by violence either. He saves her and lies to protect her, all the while telling her the truth about the situation around her. She's grateful for this and appreciates him for it. You're not doing yourself any favours by trying to re-write the relationship as abusive and terrifying. Sansa has shown she is attracted to Sandor, and she's made it perfectly clear she does not want Tyrion. And btw, the nickname is a sign of affection. That's why it slips out at the most inappropriate times and even when he's not around her in ASOS.

But, this is classical, abusive cycle of behavior: 1) the Tension builds, 2) the Incident, 3) Reconcilliation (false remorse), 4) the Calm.

As for the "little bird"...every time I read lines where he was using those words, I heard snears and a mocking tone.

I want the Hound and Sansa to end up together in a great love match. He already loves her and I think her transformation from a silly little girl influenced by songs of knights and chivalry to a practical woman who sees beyond the outside into the inside will be complete. She knew he was not craven on the Blackwater from the fighting, but it was the fire that scares him so.

Abusers look for victims that are easy to manipulate, and they want you to behave only in the ways that they want you to behave. I actually viewed that scene where Sansa declines to leave with Sandor as a good, smart decision! She may have intuitively known that he could not be trusted. Look how he treated Arya when they eventually met up?

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But, this is classical, abusive cycle of behavior: 1) the Tension builds, 2) the Incident, 3) Reconcilliation (false remorse), 4) the Calm.

As for the "little bird"...every time I read lines where he was using those words, I heard snears and a mocking tone.

Abusers look for victims that are easy to manipulate, and they want you to behave only in the ways that they want you to behave. I actually viewed that scene where Sansa declines to leave with Sandor as a good, smart decision! She may have intuitively known that he could not be trusted. Look how he treated Arya when they eventually met up?

I think you're getting Sandor confused with Littlefinger and Joffrey, honestly. Sandor is a lot of things, but he's not an abuser and he isn't about playing games and manipulating anyone. When he was with Arya, calling her a bitch wasn't very nice, but he freaking saved her life and continued to protect her long after the hope for ransoming her was gone. As for the nickname, it did start off with him mocking her, but it evolved into something almost affectionate towards the end of their relationship and afterwards. Are you telling me that in the BBB scene when she touches his face, and he says, "Little bird" that this sounds like he's sneering? Or when he saves her from the riot and tells everyone in the castle courtyard that the little bird is bleeding and to see her back to her cage? Or when he states that little bird shit on Tyrion's head and flew away?

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I think you're getting Sandor confused with Littlefinger and Joffrey, honestly. Sandor is a lot of things, but he's not an abuser and he isn't about playing games and manipulating anyone. When he was with Arya, calling her a bitch wasn't very nice, but he freaking saved her life and continued to protect her long after the hope for ransoming her was gone. As for the nickname, it did start off with him mocking her, but it evolved into something almost affectionate towards the end of their relationship and afterwards. Are you telling me that in the BBB scene when she touches his face, and he says, "Little bird" that this sounds like he's sneering?

I guess it's all in how you interpret the scene. Right before we get to where she touches his face, he shoves her down onto her bed and puts a dagger to her throat and tells her to "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life." (sounds romantic to me...not!) Sansa "could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again..." she ends up remembering a "hymn" that apparently causes Sandor to have some remorse, because he removes the dagger from her neck. It says that she only cupped his cheek "by instinct", which I took to mean "survival instinct". What happens next is when he says, "Little bird" again, but the description for his voice states, "his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone". I think you are interpreting "raw" as equaling some type of affection, but to me it reads accusingly. What I mean by that is he knows her actions are simply courtesy used as armor.

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I don't think Sandor qualifies for classical abuser in this sense: there is no correlation to gender and/or his relation to the person to treat them like X. That's how he deals with the world, and to be fair, it is a medieval world we're talking about. I think, relatively speaking, he was actually pretty kind to Arya.

I wouldn't want him to marry my sister or anything, but I don't think applying BWS standards to him really works, either.

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Tyrion never raped Sansa (or anyone else for that matter ), nor lied to her, and if they did have a real marriage I believe he would be faithful. Why do you think he deserves a loveless marriage, or that he needs to be humbled? Tyrion has been subjected to bullying his whole life, and he never got the recognition or appreciation that he deserves.

Tyrion raped Tysha, the woman he claims to have loved. (CrypticWeirwood beat me to it.)

Tyrion deserves to be humbled because he uses his status as a Lannister to be a jerk to women.

And it seems to me that Sansa would appreciate Tyrion lot more if he were to do the generous thing and let her go.

He'd have a better chance at recognition and appreciation if he were in a relationship without so much baggage.

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SO....Sansa is supposed to overcome her desire for an attractive mate and settle for a Kinslaying dwarf husband (and dwarfism is an inherited trait so her kids would stand a good chance of inheriting it).

but......Kinslaying, no claim to Casterly Rock because Tywin gave it to Jaime who turned it down which meant Cersei was next in line and Tywin made it VERY clear Tyrion would NOT get Casterly Rock.....and by murdering his father, the Hand of the King, he kinda engraved that into stone....

This person, who is a dwarf, horribly scarred, REFUSES to have sex with ANY woman who is LESS than perfect (ahem...superficial??), thinks he is OWED a beautiful young wife and would never dare stoop to the level of Lollys (yet Bronn did).....this man deserves Sansa.

so SHE has to give up all to be with him but what does he give up?? Why does she have to settle for the ugly, repulsive spouse but he gets the gorgeous babe??? Why can't HE settle for someone less than beautiful?

He is even MORE superficial about looks than she is!

sounds like typical misogyny. Make the poor girl suffer for the benefit of the all-superior Male

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My secret hope is that Tyrion overcomes his shallowness, puts away his childish notions of love, and comes to love Penny for the caring, loving, wondrous girl she is.......except she deserves far better than the likes of him

It would be nice to see him overcome the superficiality of lust and "see the soul beneath the body" and recognize Penny's worth. Now if she had looked like Sansa when he met her....he would've been ALL over her like white on rice.

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Don't forget, she is already married to Tyrion. So, he, likely, needs to die for her not to be married. But he has also been the only man that has been truly kind to her. The only man who doesn't care about her bloodline and using her as some sort of political gain.

No offence dude, but you really really need to reread Tyrion's ASOS chapter. The reasons he marries Sansa re purely selfish. He wants her for two things: her claim and her looks. He cares nothing for Sansa_the_person. He doesn't know her, and constantly misunderstand her, and thinks her a vapid pious creature.

He's also not the only man who has been truly kind to her. She befriended two people in Kings Landing, both outsiders, who were both kind and helpful to her as far as they could and both also in ways that they were not allowed to, risking things for Sansa that they did not have to do, and non of them were Tyrion.

As for him being a Lannister, well, he can't help that. He is the only adult Lannister who hasn't done anything to hurt house Stark. Jaime, Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, all did horrible things to the Starks. Tyrion made the saddle for Bran, returned Ned's bones (would have returned Ice if possible), truly showed remorse for the murders of her family members, etc.

What I think Sansa is learning is that looks, name, pomp don't matter. What matters is spending the rest of your life with someone who is going to be kind to you, especially in this world, matters more than anything.

Btw, I'm not saying Tyrion is perfect, but in this discussion he is the only one,outside of her family, that doesn't treat her like their little puppet.

Oh Tyrion is certainly one of the better Lannisters, but read my quotes from Sansa's chapter on what *she* actually thinks about the wedding. People are seeing this as "well the wedding could be convenient for Tyrion", but what about Sansa's POV? She does not love him, and more importantly, she does not trust him and she definitely does not want him or Casterly bloody Rock.

And again, you are wrong when you say Tyrion doesn't treat Sansa as a puppet. He agrees to marry a girl who is still almost a child because it will get him lands, a title and something pretty on his arm. Did he ask Sansa beforehand? Did he explain the situation? Did he do a Jaime and deny Tywin? No, he didn't. He could have, but he doesn't.

Abusers look for victims that are easy to manipulate, and they want you to behave only in the ways that they want you to behave. I actually viewed that scene where Sansa declines to leave with Sandor as a good, smart decision! She may have intuitively known that he could not be trusted. Look how he treated Arya when they eventually met up?

Yeah look how he treats Arya. OMG!! He saves her life at the Red Wedding although he doesn't have to and then he doesn't sell her to the highest bidder and instead trekks around the Riverlands in search for someone who could take good care of her. What a dick!

You've going to have a very hard time backing up Sandor_the_abuser from the text, since apart from the Blackwater where he's clearly in a extremely stressed and desperate situation while dead drunk, he doesn't do anything to indicate abusive behaviour. On the contrary, out of the Kings Landing people, he is one of the few who actively tries to *prevent* the abuse Sansa goes through. He does this more than once, and on more than one occasion he steps outside of what he is allowed to do to cover for her. He also has nothing to gain from it, and a lot to lose.

Socially awkward? Yes, abusive? No. That would be his brother. You might also note that he talks a lot of smack talk, but check what he actually *does* and you'll see a different pattern.

Tyrion never raped Sansa (or anyone else for that matter ), nor lied to her, and if they did have a real marriage I believe he would be faithful. Why do you think he deserves a loveless marriage, or that he needs to be humbled? Tyrion has been subjected to bullying his whole life, and he never got the recognition or appreciation that he deserves.

Tyrion raped Tysha, and you can check again how he acts around the whores in ADWD. Tyrion DOES lie to her as well, which Sansa reflects on herself "In the dark I can be the knight of Flowers, he had said, but that was only another Lannister lie".

Nobody here seems to advocate that Tyrion should have a loveless marriage, what we are arguing is that staying married to Sansa will_be a loveless marriage.

You got me there. However, I think we should give Tyrion the benefit of the doubt, as he is convinced by Tywin and Jaime (at the time) that Tysha was actually a whore, and Tyrion believes they are paying for a whore and not raping her. Turns out later we learn she actually was not a whore, and that she was indeed raped. But again, at the time, Tyrion believes he's paid a whore.

Ehm, do you honestly believe that she wanted to be raped by 200 men for a silver each? Or do whores just deserve that type of treatment? Whatever she was hardly matters considering. Being a whore doesn't make you less than a person, and not deserving of that type of treatment. As I stated earlier, check Tyrion's terrible behaviour with whores in ADWD. Whores are actually women, and people! too. Even if people just look at them like pieces of meat. :stillsick:

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My secret hope is that Tyrion overcomes his shallowness, puts away his childish notions of love, and comes to love Penny for the caring, loving, wondrous girl she is.......except she deserves far better than the likes of him

It would be nice to see him overcome the superficiality of lust and "see the soul beneath the body" and recognize Penny's worth. Now if she had looked like Sansa when he met her....he would've been ALL over her like white on rice.

:agree:

It's interesting how hard people are arguing that Sansa should put away her desire for a good looking guy, but it's fine that Tyrion only wants really pretty girls in a totally shallow fashion.

Besides, Sansa is already past her "Loras Tyrell" phase, and she's much younger than Tyrion. I quite like Penny's character too, so I hope she tags along a while longer.

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It's interesting how hard people are arguing that Sansa should put away her desire for a good looking guy, but it's fine that Tyrion only wants really pretty girls in a totally shallow fashion.

I don't see this as the gender issue you obviously do, but rather that Tyrion has demonstrated a myriad of priorities and concerns in his POVs...many of them dubious, many of them understandable, but also many of them ranking higher than aesthetics...whereas Sansa was pretty single-minded about what she wanted from life. A handsome gallant prince, period.

That may have changed with trauma, but we don't really know, as since the trauma she's pretty much been in shock pattern/first few levels of Maslow's h/e.

I would say Cersei is more the female equivalent of Tyrion in this respect. Clearly looks matter to her a great deal, and tend to be determinant in her selection of bedmate (maybe even more than Tyrion...he at least appreciates well placed back-talk), but you get the sense that that falls below things like 'power' and 'revenge' on her scale in a way you don't for Sansa, and therefore it seems more likely she'd adapt to an unattractive mate if it met higher criteria.

If you want an example of how it's not a gender thing, I mean.

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I don't see this as the gender issue you obviously do, but rather that Tyrion has demonstrated a myriad of priorities and concerns in his POVs...many of them dubious, many of them understandable, but also many of them ranking higher than aesthetics...whereas Sansa was pretty single-minded about what she wanted from life. A handsome gallant prince, period.

That may have changed with trauma, but we don't really know, as since the trauma she's pretty much been in shock pattern/first few levels of Maslow's h/e.

I would say Cersei is more the female equivalent of Tyrion in this respect. Clearly looks matter to her a great deal, and tend to be determinant in her selection of bedmate (maybe even more than Tyrion...he at least appreciates well placed back-talk), but you get the sense that that falls below things like 'power' and 'revenge' on her scale in a way you don't for Sansa, and therefore it seems more likely she'd adapt to an unattractive mate if it met higher criteria.

If you want an example of how it's not a gender thing, I mean.

Oh, I don't think it's written as a Gender thing, but interpreted by the readers in such a way, i.e. Tyrion is cut more slack than say, Sansa or Cersei.

Sansa's entire character development has been to shed the disillusions as well, so she's pretty far removed from the little girl fawning over Loras Tyrell.

Tyrion is older, more experienced, smarter in most ways yet he has a severe short coming when it comes to pretty women and women in general.

Throughout the series, we have seen him sympathise a lot of cripples, bastards and broken things, like Jon or Bran, yet look at his interaction with Shae. She's of a far lower social status than him, really pretty and even though he tries to keep her safe, is that for her sake, or his?He wants her to be all lovey dovey with him, yet he wants a combined servant and sex worker, he doesn't want an equal. Their relationship is horribly unequal and although Tyrion knows he's paying for it, he likes to delude himself over and over again about it.

Overall, through the series, he has no functional relationships with women. This is possibly getting better with Penny, but before that, we never hear of any positive relationships with any female. His mother died giving birth to him, the women around him while he grew up were only there because of Tywin's money. Tysha loved him, but look where that got her? And even if he claimed to do so, he still wasn't beneath raping her as no 201.

So I'd say Tyrion has an extremely complicated relationship to women, which he needs to sort out, somehow. Maybe with the help of Penny and Dany? Without actually facing those issues, he stands very little chance of ever having a good relationship or a happy marriage.

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Oh, I don't think it's written as a Gender thing, but interpreted by the readers in such a way, i.e. Tyrion is cut more slack than say, Sansa or Cersei.

I think that's what I meant, though. I'm newish here, but I haven't seen a lot of Cersei bashing based on her prioritizing looks. Is it common?

Sansa's entire character development has been to shed the disillusions as well, so she's pretty far removed from the little girl fawning over Loras Tyrell.

Here we differ, insofar as I think she's been pretty much operating on a basic survival/shock level since, well, Baelor or at last the events subsequent. I haven't gotten much of a sense of any priorities other than staying alive since then...she's been pretty anesthetized.

Tyrion is older, more experienced, smarter in most ways yet he has a severe short coming when it comes to pretty women and women in general.

Really, though? For e Westerosi heterosexual, he's pretty self-aware. He has resisted the charms of many women considered to be extremely attractive for various reasons...his sister for suspicion, Chattaya (sp?) for loyalty, etc. Not saying he's taking out a column in Ms. but you get me.

Throughout the series, we have seen him sympathise a lot of cripples, bastards and broken things, like Jon or Bran, yet look at his interaction with Shae. She's of a far lower social status than him, really pretty and even though he tries to keep her safe, is that for her sake, or his?

Why do they have to be distinct?

He wants her to be all lovey dovey with him, yet he wants a combined servant and sex worker, he doesn't want an equal.

Again, I agree to an extent, but what are the female Westerosi equivalents of Tyrion Lannister, exactly?

Their relationship is horribly unequal and although Tyrion knows he's paying for it, he likes to delude himself over and over again about it.

The fact that he's the delusional one might be suggestive about the inequities, indeed.

Overall, through the series, he has no functional relationships with women. This is possibly getting better with Penny, but before that, we never hear of any positive relationships with any female.

I disagree. Chattaya or whatever her name was. Look at the extent to which he was willing to go to protect her from the consequences of his/his sister's game of power. That's a fairly altruistic posit for a Westerosi. (I know, I'm getting redundant.)

His mother died giving birth to him, the women around him while he grew up were only there because of Tywin's money. Tysha loved him, but look where that got her? And even if he claimed to do so, he still wasn't beneath raping her as no 201.

So I'd say Tyrion has an extremely complicated relationship to women, which he needs to sort out, somehow. Maybe with the help of Penny and Dany? Without actually facing those issues, he stands very little chance of ever having a good relationship or a happy marriage.

IMO his relationship with women is no different than his relationship with men. His relationship with Bronn is no different than his relationship with Shae. He became used to the concept that people were assets for what they could do for him at an early age, devoid of sentimentality, and has been pretty consistent since. He sees them as functionaries. What you see as an unhealthy relationship with women, I'd call an unhealthy relationship with humans. Almost everyone he has affection for is someone in his pay or of use to him (with the exception of bastards and broken things, etc. which doesn't take much analysis to see as reflective).

His brother was one exception, and is no longer.

IOW, this is NOT a gender issue for him. I can see why you'd think it was, because if you isolate his relationships with women, yeah, unhealthy patterns there. But then you consider Bronn and his father and everyone else, and you realize he's an equal opportunity screw-up.

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I disagree. Chattaya or whatever her name was. Look at the extent to which he was willing to go to protect her from the consequences of his/his sister's game of power. That's a fairly altruistic posit for a Westerosi. (I know, I'm getting redundant.)

You mean Shae? Or Alayaya. who is Chataya's daughter? Tyrion never touched her, but he got pissed off with Cersei for hurting someone totally unrelated. I'm not saying Tyrion is a bad_person and a horrible villain, mind you, but he does have some deep seated, serious issues in his interaction with women.

IMO his relationship with women is no different than his relationship with men. His relationship with Bronn is no different than his relationship with Shae. He became used to the concept that people were assets for what they could do for him at an early age, devoid of sentimentality, and has been pretty consistent since. He sees them as functionaries. What you see as an unhealthy relationship with women, I'd call an unhealthy relationship with humans. Almost everyone he has affection for is someone in his pay or of use to him. His brother was one exception, and is no longer.

IOW, this is NOT a gender issue for him. I can see why you'd think it was, because if you isolate his relationships with women, yeah, unhealthy patterns there. But then you consider Bronn and his father and everyone else, and you realize he's an equal opportunity screw-up.

Well, they are, because he craves recognition from men like Tywin, but from pretty women he craves something else, which I personally think has to do with his complete lack of women through his life who have actually loved him. His mother died when he was born, and Cersei was always an arse to him, so apart from Tysha there was nobody.

It seems at least Tyrion and Jaime got along well and had a fairly good brotherly relationship before the debacle with Tywin.

Tyrion pays women to pretend that they love him, and then he wants to forget that he paid them. He wants someone to indulge his every whim, yet he does no try and see the women_as_people. As much as he professed to love Shae, what sort of relationship does he actually aspire to have with her? There is a telling passage in ASOS that he wants her to basically massage his legs, bring him his wine and slippers and suck his cock, end of. That's gratification, it's not a companion.

The only healthy interaction he's had so far with a female character is with Penny and he seems to have a difficult time handling that she's naive and trusting of him.

Tyrion's path through ASOS to ADWD has been a very dark one, and part of this has been his relationship with women and where he stands on that. It's not painted him in the best of lights, either. Hopefully he can come out of it all a different, more whole, person.

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You mean Shae? Or Alayaya. who is Chataya's daughter? Tyrion never touched her, but he got pissed off with Cersei for hurting someone totally unrelated. I'm not saying Tyrion is a bad_person and a horrible villain, mind you, but he does have some deep seated, serious issues in his interaction with women.

The latter, I think. The one we are supposed to suppose is Shae, for a bit, because of the degree to which he is concerned for her welfare. When in fact the concern is there in spite of no sexual involvement. I'm not sure, but I think you are suggesting this is a negative.

Well, they are, because he craves recognition from men like Tywin...

Men "like" Tywin? Or Tywin? We know on some levels he craves recognition from his only surviving parent, yes. You think that's gender related? Is he like that with any other men? But in any event, is craving recognition an example of a functional relationship? I thought that was what we were discussing.

...but from pretty women he craves something else, which I personally think has to do with his complete lack of women through his life who have actually loved him...His mother died when he was born, and Cersei was always an arse to him, so apart from Tysha there was nobody.

Okay, so here we're agreeing that on some level he is seeking approval from both parents, only one is dead. I don't disagree, and am confused as to what we are disagreeing about, if we agree on this. He's dysfunctional, period.

It seems at least Tyrion and Jaime got along well and had a fairly good brotherly relationship before the debacle with Tywin.

They previously had a lack of antipathy which is as close as you can get to love in that horribly dysfunctional family, yes. It ended when the fact that the one brother found out the other had lied to him about his wife not being a whore/gang-raped by family retainers. Stop me when you feel I'm getting to the functional relationship.

Tyrion pays women to pretend that they love him, and then he wants to forget that he paid them. He wants someone to indulge his every whim, yet he does no try and see the women_as_people.

He entertains equally faulty hopes for loyalty where Bronn is concerned. I would suggest that both were half-hearted.

As much as he professed to love Shae, what sort of relationship does he actually aspire to have with her?

As I said, a functionary.

There is a telling passage in ASOS that he wants her to basically massage his legs, bring him his wine and slippers and suck his cock, end of. That's gratification, it's not a companion.

In the words of Tim Roth in Rob Roy, "la".

The only healthy interaction he's had so far with a female character is with Penny and he seems to have a difficult time handling that she's naive and trusting of him.

I'd say Alalaya, but again, I think they both belong on a very short and not gender specific list.

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