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How does Tommen die?


Lord Ben

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That's what I keep saying, and yet people insisting that Myrcella and Tommen have no right to the iron throne.

Apparently, bastards made by married men are morally very, very different than those made by women.

Damned patriarchal/feudal political systems. Hardly a basis for a system of government. As they say. What these people need is a constitution and a parliament based on universal adult suffrage, which can gradually evolve into a democratic constitutional monarchy (which would be my own preferred ending, regardless of who lives/dies, who kills who and so on).

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Eh, Robert gained the throne by killing the Targareyen heir, Cersei gained the throne by killing the present king-right of conquest.

That's not how it works, Robert gained the throne as he was the closest related to the previous king (not killed or exiled). You cannot seize the throne just because you are stronger or killed the last king you need legitamacy (which was why Robert was chosen as the head of the rebellion in the first place). So Cersei's children have no claim to the throne it passes to Stannis as the closest legitamite relation to the previous King.

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Faceless Arya is sent to kill him, but hears her brothers are still alive (thanks to Davos) decides to give up and goes to kill Ser Meryn, who's guarding Tommen at the time. She kills him, but as Tommen is running away, he is killed by Syrio, whom afterwards changes his face into Jaqen and kills Arya for failing her mission.

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That's not how it works, Robert gained the throne as he was the closest related to the previous king (not killed or exiled). You cannot seize the throne just because you are stronger or killed the last king you need legitamacy (which was why Robert was chosen as the head of the rebellion in the first place). So Cersei's children have no claim to the throne it passes to Stannis as the closest legitamite relation to the previous King.

I think it was just plain conquest. Viserys was obviously the rightful king. He wasn't passed over because he was exiled. He was exiled because Robert would have killed him if he hadn't fled.

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Tommen and Myrcella have a fairly strong claim in their own right actually. Tommen is the oldest brother of a king without a trueborn son, just like Stannis is. Joffrey had no lawful claim of succession, but his siblings do through him - to the lords who sided with him. They are Joffreys rightful heirs.

Only those who never officially accepted Joffreys right to rule can claim that Stannis have precedence to Tommen, even if the latter is a bastard. The King can legitimize any bastard by decree, including himself.

This is also why Daenerys' and Aegon's claims are so weak, virtually every lord of any power in the seven kingdoms swore fealty to Robert - effectively ending any lawful claim the Targaryens would otherwise have. If they try to reinstate themselves, they'll be the rebels.

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I have a few theories in no specific order...

1.) Bank hires FM, this also gives Arya her chance to get back to Westeros.

2.) Cersei tries to poison Margaery, but Tommen drinks it.

3.) Qyburn is actually on someone else's side and is obviously going to be unGregor's puppeteer. Tommen and Myrcella killed by unGregor, just like he killed Targ babes. Then Cersei gets the Elia treatment.

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Eh, Robert gained the throne by killing the Targareyen heir, Cersei gained the throne by killing the present king-right of conquest.

I think there's a big difference there — Robert was public about it and the Baratheons became the recognized royal family. The Lannister children are only in power because they can convince people that they're Baratheons. In order for the Lannister coup to even resemble Robert's, the Lannisters need to demand fealty to a dynasty in their own right. Merely sneaking around pretending the children are Robert's doesn't really cut it.

I think it was just plain conquest. Viserys was obviously the rightful king. He wasn't passed over because he was exiled. He was exiled because Robert would have killed him if he hadn't fled.

It was conquest, yes. But that conquest came with the other high lords recognizing the dynastic superiority of the Baratheons over the Targaryens. That sort of recognition is important and as I said above, it's the reason that Cersei's children really have no claim to the throne whatso-freaking-ever and why "well Cersei won by conquest" doesn't work.

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Cersei tries to poison Margaery, but Tommen drinks it.

Ooh, I like this!

No, not a cute little kid dying. That's bad.

But if he has to die it somehow gets thrown back in Cersei's face in the worst way. More fun with self-fulfilling prophesies.

Why? I see this hypothesis a lot but, Jaime just doesn't care for his children - I can't see him being enraged enough to strangle Cersei over it.

I think that'll change. He's on an honor jag right now. He could say to hell with being "just the seed" and try to step in and be in his kids' lives in a more meaningful way, especially since Cersei is such a mess. If her actions lead to their deaths I can see Jaime snapping and putting the choke on her.

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I think it was just plain conquest. Viserys was obviously the rightful king. He wasn't passed over because he was exiled. He was exiled because Robert would have killed him if he hadn't fled.

But that still counts doesn't it, he still fled. I'm thinking King James II and the Jacobins in England. It doesn't matter if your fleeing death, once you flee you become exile and foreit your right. Though I think has it in that all the nobles recognised a change of dynasty to the Baratheon's. If Cersei stepped out and said they were Lannisters, that they were seizing the throne and all the nobles agreed then I'd accept them as rulers by conquest.

I do still think possessing Royal blood counts (as Robert did), you see in English history the effort made by new dynasties to emphasise there bloodlines (I'm thinking Tudors and King Cnut in particular). This became important in Europe after the Crisis of the third century in the Roman Empire where every general with an army decided to declare themselves emperor and you got a different emperor a year with all the civil wars.

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Of course, if you like your Hitchcock and want to give a nod to a certain person at the KL court, Tommen will be pecked to death by lots of little birds.

Tippie Hedrin (sp?) is in KL?

I LOVE Hitchcock, but more his not-so-horror films, like the Jimmie Stewart/Cary Grant stuff.

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I think Tommen's death will somehow be related to Aegon and his follower's battle for the throne. Probably his sister's too.

Then Cersei will have lost all of her children and Jamie will kill her to keep her from killing some other innocents. I really think Jamie's transformation will turn him against Cersei in the end.

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