(Book Spoilers) Margaery Tyrell

[Envie]

... First, they made Loras Tyrell gay, which a lot of people say it was hinted in the book.

[sarcasm]Oh my goodness you should not say things like that! Scroll back and read about 2-3 pages back, I got flamed repeatedly for suggesting it was only 'hinted' in the books that Renly and Loras were gay! Apparently lots of people are better readers and knew without a shadow of doubt because it was written out in precise wording that they were having a homosexual affair and so everyone should know that for the television series, why are so so shocked by the gay sex scenes!?! [/sarcasm] ;)

[Francis Buck]

This is another Tyrell character being portrayed in a different light than the books. First, they made Loras Tyrell gay, which a lot of people say it was hinted in the book. And now, they make Margaery into a sexual cunning princess who knows how to play the game as well as the next player.

I do not dislike this portrayal of Margaery because it makes her more interesting than the book Margaery, who seems like a little high born girl who's naive to things.

Have you even read the books?

[Isis]

Because it was implicit in the books rather than explicit some readers seem to willfully disbelieve that Loras and Renly were having a (sexual) relationship. However, it's been confirmed outright by George on more than one occasion. So I'm baffled as to why people keep wanting to deny it.

Also, there haven't been any graphic homosexual sex scenes in the show so far. All you've seen is some kissing, some manscaping and some breeches being untied. You didn't see any homosexual cocksucking on screen. It was only implied. Unlike the ten minute Ros + random whore sexposition scene during LF's monologue where it all took place on screen. :)

[Envie]

My previous argument, to which I left some sarcasm behind, is not that I disbelieved Loras and Renly were gay. There are others like TC_Chaos above who may still feel they weren't written that way. My argument was while yes it was implicitly written in the books, it was nowhere like the scenes in the series and that there's a huge difference in subtlety that the producers seem to feel was necessary to hit you over the head with a bat. Could it have been revealed that Renly was gay and having an affair with Loras without the graphic sex scene? Sure. Would that have been exciting HBO typical drama? No!

I merely try to defend those who have a hard time grappling with the implicit hints in the book because they're shocked by the scenes in the series. it's a big huge swing in the pendulum. I'm actually surprised (or maybe I shouldn't be) that Martin is ok with it being so bluntly exposed, but again, sex sells.

[Lord Varys]

To make Renly and Loras a little bit more than extras in season 1 demanded to give them additional scenes. The books only 'hinted at' their affair because we get no Renly/Loras POVs. But to treat Renly and Loras the way they were treated in the books (i.e. showing us Loras giving Sansa her rose, and allow Renly a few funny lines) would have made them effectual non-characters.

Giving us 'the shaving scene' did not only establish them as lovers, it accomplished much more (i.e. Renly's pragmatism, his ruthlessness when necessary, Loras's ambition, Tyrell back story, and the reason why Renly decided to claim the Iron Throne).

They could not have given Renly and Loras a private scene without showing us the depth of their relationship. But not giving them a private scene would have made them nothing but extras. Had they not treated them the way they did the better way would have been to cut both Renly and Loras from the entire show.

[The Bastard of Bolton]

One of the things I hate about the internet is it is hard to gage who is lying or is not.

I honestly did not pick-up on the fact that Loras and Renly were gay. The hints were more obvious for me when contemplating Jon Connington.

People on the net have this horrendous hindsight bias and they project that they knew all along and often belittle others for not being as clever as them. I hate the attitude, especially when most of these people did nothing on their own but only put the pieces together after reading through threads and then presenting themselves as having known all along.

Anyways I look forward to more Tyrells, hopefully we will get the Queen of Thorns.

[Derfel Cadarn]

I think it's implicit in the books where it comes to Stannis and Mel, and it's explicit when it comes to Renly and Loras. In the case of the former, there is no smoking gun. When it comes to the latter, it's undeniable when you put it all together.

-"Renley's little Rose"

-Loras being the most upset at Renly's death

-"Put that sword away or I'll put it somewhere Renly never found."

-Littlefinger talking about marrying off the Tyrell sons and saying "...particularly difficult in the case of Ser Loras."

And Stannis telling Renly that Margaery is likely to remain a maid in his bed. It's pretty obvious.

[Abaddon]

I thought this thread was about Margary, not a tired rehashing of the yes and no of Loras and Renly?

I am liking what we have seen from Dormer so far...

(ps, not on topic so my bad, but Maggie Smith for QoT or bust!)

[jblair]

Margaery in the books was always a fully confident, self-assured woman. That was her presentation from the start. Do you assume that she's oblivious to politics because she's nice to people and she doesnt overtly take advantage of everyone around her?

On the one hand, it's perfectly reasonable for Margaery to actually BE a nice person who doesnt take advantage of people and still be a politician with clout. Just because you try to take care of yourself and your family doesnt mean that you need to beat everyone down around you while doing it.

On the other hand, it might all just be an act, where Margaery has found that the best way to win allies and hold power is to be loved by the people around you. It doesnt matter too much because we don't know at this point. Either way the end results are the same.

As far as sex and child-bearing goes, everything that Margaery says in the show (other than Lancel helping out) is pure common sense and would be understood by everyone in Westeros. Marriage isn't about love between men and women of noble birth in that society. I take her dialogue with Renly as a reminder to the audience of how things work.

I'm not surprised that some people have a hard reaction to this, because a lot of people have very little knowledge of medieval society. But I would hope that people realize that's the way things worked back then rather than assume something negative about Margaery. The real problem is if the viewers can't identify with the reality of the time. Marriages were used mostly as alliances between families. Children were more important than love and happiness between the parents. And affairs were expected and more or less condoned, since husband and wife weren't married for love anyways. I'm sure that a lot of the issues people have with characters in the book stem from ignorance of those basic principles.

I agree with this. Margaery is the Total Package. From the start she was presented as savvy, clever, confident, charming-as-all-hell, and wise to the game. That doesn't mean she's an immoral (or amoral, as the case may be) conniver like most of the other successful players. It's not like Westeros offers us only two choices: the Good-Naive axis and the Evil-Player axis. I believe that Margaery is one of the truly effective players with a good heart. The only immoral act (I'm not referring to sexual escapades) I can recall is presumably being in on Joffrey's death. But I consider that more of a preemptive family strike than an assassination. Joff was going down for certain, but she didn't let herself get caught up as collateral damage or as his victim.

Margaery in the books certainly steals Tommen's affections...but from a completely vile, paranoid person who had already created one absolute monstrosity. She does seem genuinely interested in Tommen's welfare and happiness. The fact that he will potentially be her king someday merely aligns both her pragmatism and her morals.

[Envie]

Margaery in the books certainly steals Tommen's affections...but from a completely vile, paranoid person who had already created one absolute monstrosity. She does seem genuinely interested in Tommen's welfare and happiness. The fact that he will potentially be her king someday merely aligns both her pragmatism and her morals.

It would certainly be nice in Winds of Winter if Tommen becomes everything Joffrey was not once he's out of his Mother's clutches. Somehow, I have a sneaky suspicion Margaery's union with the little king isn't going to last either.

[Secret Targ]

I liked Margaerys portrayal in the show. I'm a huge Domer fan, though at first I was little iffy from her first scene. She won me over with the "I can just get my brother in here scene" when she gets into the politics of it all though.

I took the "Officially a virgin" as meaning she actually isn't. I thought that was an interesting add considering all the hub-bub later about it.

Funny how I don't even blink anymore at the twincest, but I was shocked at the idea of Margaery bringing her brother into the bedroom with her and Renly...

[brena]

I personally adore tv!Margaery.

For some reason, when reading the books, I imagined her to be just like she is on the show: seemingly innocent and sweet in public, but actually a clever, crafty young Queen-of-Thorns'-grandchild who can hold her own in the Game. I even imagined her older then she's described, as I just couldn't manage her as a teen, when reading. So obviously, her portrayal on tv fits perfectly and I didn't get the shocks that other posters had.

To posters who find her drastically different from the books, I'd just like to point out that she is very different when she's alone with Renly behind closed doors (behind closed tent flap?), but in public, she's the perfect courteous noble lady just like in the books.

My only issue with the tv!Margaery is not her character, it's her dresses. I have to say that I find them weird. Not because of the cleavage, and it's a minor issue, it's just... the overall look. I don't know... I kinda imagined Highgarden fashion to be more... lavish? luxurious? opulent? costly? I get the feeling they designed her dressed to show the Reach as more warm, liberated and adventurous, while keeping a look distinct from King's Landing and from across the Narrow Sea. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't scream "rich lush flowery Highgarden" to me. I expected something in the same style as Loras' very frilly shirt and armor, so I'm slightly put off.

About the Queen of Thorns, I really wished we'd see her, but from a story-telling point of view, it would be a bad idea to have her on the tv show: too much content for 10 episodes, too many characters to keep track of, more scenes needed for Margaery... While we get her importance in the books, she only has 2-3 (?) scenes, and considering how they've expanded Margaery and Loras for the show, it would make more sense to split the QoT's aspects between them.

[teemo]

I would agree that her clothes were not quite as extravagant as I pictured, considering that Highgarden is rich as hell. Maybe Marg likes to dress more modestly before battle.

And there will be a QoT!!! Has to be....

[Honey Badger]

I love the choice of Natalie Dormer as Margaery Tyrell. A wicked look to her, and incredibly beautiful. Both inviting and dangerous, and you know not to turn your back on her. Cersei in the books had it right; the moment she started slipping, Margaery will come in and replace her. This TV character fit in line with my impression of Marg in the books. Sweet on the outside, but every bit as dangerous as the Queen of Thorns behind closed doors. I don't agree with the assertions that they changed the book character dramatically. That only works if her being nice in public in the books was the version you believed. If you always suspected her as a schemer, then the TV version only confirms what you already thought.

I also believe the theory that they may cut the Queen of Thorns. A television series will have to watch the cast list, and Dormer can already fill this role. Cut and paste what the QoT has coming and have Margaery do them instead. It'd still work. Plus it'd "level up" this television character to a more prominent position.

[Lord Godric]

I was always a fan of the decision of Natalie Dormer for Margaery because I was expecting them to take her down a path where they make her character similar to the Queen of Thorns. And I was pleasantly surprised to see that they seem to be doing exactly that. They are making Margaery a schemer and someone who puts politics first, and I think in the grand scheme of the show that is the better idea instead of making her simply a pawn.

I was very happy with Dormer's performance and I look forward to how they will write her character.

[teemo]

You really think Margaery is capable of plotting the whole scheme with LF to kill Joffrey? I know she's cunning and all, but she is NOT the QoT yet either.

[brena]

Maybe Marg likes to dress more modestly before battle.

:laugh: That dress is Margaery being "modest"... nice!

And there will be a QoT!!! Has to be....

As a fan of the QoT who thinks House Tyrell is the greatest house of all, I'd really like to see her. But I just don't think it would add anything to the show. The show would benefit a whole lot more if Margaery has more importance.

You really think Margaery is capable of plotting the whole scheme with LF to kill Joffrey? I know she's cunning and all, but she is NOT the QoT yet either.

We don't know that, in the books. It's hinted at, but we really don't know much of what book!Margaery is capable of. In the show, I think it would be awesome. Plus, we also have Loras, who knows (and outright said so in the shaving scene) that Joffrey is a monster. And he's already been shown as a schemer too. Even if he seems to genuinely love Renly, he did manipulated/convinced him to claim the throne.

[Honey Badger]

You really think Margaery is capable of plotting the whole scheme with LF to kill Joffrey? I know she's cunning and all, but she is NOT the QoT yet either.

Why not? They'll expand her role to include the QoT. If they imbue her with her powers, she won't need a grandmother telling her what to do. Even Mace Tyrell could just stay at Highgarden instead of coming to court. You guys shouldn't downplay the fact that you can't have that many people in an ensemble cast. Once you have more than twenty main actors, you really start harming the show's ability to move the plot along using a ten one-hour episode format.

[Howling Mad]

And Natalie Dormer is way hot and did a great job as Margaery

:agree: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Morrigan]

without the graphic sex scene? Sure. Would that have been exciting HBO typical drama? No!

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means...

(Hint: there have been very graphic sex scenes in the show so far. None of them involved Renly and Loras. :rolleyes:)