Cat and Jon, part whatever

[kg1982]

This argument started because you were saying that Jon knew his place as a bastard well, not to argue that bastard children are lesser than normal children and thus don't deserve to be treated as well, and that bastards were only disadvantaged when it came to matters of inheritance. Which contradicts what you're saying now, re: there is no institutionalized oppression against bastards. Restricting laws are a form of institutionalized oppression.

The restricting laws against bastards inheriting are actually in place for a real reason -- If bastards and true born children had equal rights to inheritance, then there would be quite a few wars that broke out over inheritance. There is also no way of knowing whether a bastard child is actually really part of the line sans DNA testing. A rival lord could show up with a fake bastard and use the supposed claim to the deceased lord's lands.

As for my point on restricting laws, I was arguing that there would have been more than just the laws curtailing inheritance if there was widespread blatant prejudice in Westros. The Faith, for instance, would prevent bastards from being knighted. It wouldn't be considered proper or customary for fathers to take care of their bastards. Bastard babies would be exposed.

However I also agree that the majority of what bastards face is prejudice. But you were denying it as well in your previous posts.

All of Martin's roll call of cripples, bastards, and broken things face prejudice to varying degrees. However, the prejudice against bastards is actually not widespread and uniform as the prejudice against say Tyrion Lannister. There is a wide degree of variation in fathers' reactions to their bastards - the Sand Snakes vs. Mya Stone vs. Falia Flowers. It is sad that the children's advancement depends on luck, but all cripples, bastards, and broken things face that in Westros. It's an indictment against Westros' feudal system that those that don't conform to the norms of society are considered lesser people. However, there is nothing to suggest that bastards are a special case. Jon Snow, who conforms to social norms in every way except his birth, is probably going to be more accepted in society than Tyrion Lannister or Samwell Tarly.

Almost all nobles consider bastards their social inferior : Cersei doesn't want Ellaria Sand (both because she's not married and because he's baseborn on the dais with the highborn ladies, Tyrion thinks that all the other ladies would be offended by it, Catelyn is able to predict that Mya won't marry her squire because of her bastard status, Lysa says that it wouldn't be fit for Robert Arryn to marry Alayne Stone, Myranda Royce says she shan't concern herself with "bastard breasts", Sybell Spicer is insulted by the idea of her son marrying Joy Hill (and she's descended from spice merchants, which horrifies Kevan), Selves and Stannis take Edric as a pretty big insult to their marriage etc. etc. There's plenty of examples that show that bastards =/= nobles, but you still insist that having bastards at the royal table is considered a-ok by everyone except bitches like Cersei and Catelyn.

Actually, all the examples in question are of people with huge ulterior motives..

1. Ellaria Sand - This is mainly a Cersei example because she is a bitch and would discriminate against bastards because her status in society depends on keeping the status quo. There is also the fact that Ellaria is in an open sexual relationship with Oberyn. I'm sure that women forced into arranged marriages in their teens would be quite resentful of Ellaria.

2. Mya Stone - Mya wasn't going to be able to marry her squire because of money as well as status. She didn't have any dowry and wasn't Robert's acknowledged daughter. If her family had a sufficient dowry or Robert acknowledged her, then I think she would have been able to marry her squire. Littlefinger is quite sure that Alayne will marry Harry because he's able to provide her with a huge dowry.

3. Lysa Arryn - Is a bitch who tried to kill her teenaged niece. It isn't shocking that she'd have the same views on bastards as Cersei and Cat. However, it is pretty ironic that she was quite in love with someone who her father considered very below her station while saying that a bastard isn't suitable for her vile son.

4. Miranda Royce - Ah, the town gossip.

5. Sybell Spicer - And the town social climber. An acknowledged Lannister bastard was a much better marriage than the Westerlings could have hoped for under regular circumstances. The fact that Sybell Westerling thinks that Tywin Lannister is going to give her impoverished house a legitimate Lannister marriage shows her extreme delusions.

6. Edric Storm - This is part of Stannis's long list of grievances against Robert. Edric Storm is less about his status than about the fact that Robert got drunk and slept with a noble woman on Stannis's marriage night in Stannis and Selyse's bed. Despite this, Stannis didn't begrudge Edric Storm an education on Dragonstone in SOS or keep him away from Shireen.

[Fantôme]

Yes Jon hasn't forgotten that he's a bastard, but he does seem to have forgotten what bastards are supposed to be treated like. As proven by his reaction to not being able to sit with the King and Queen with his trueborn siblings (getting very drunk, retelling the event in a flat voice to his uncle and leaving the room with tears in his eyes).

That proves he doesn't like it, not that he's not aware of the rules.He didn't think he should be seated with the royal family, he was upset he was a bastard and therefore could not sit with his siblings. But he does understand that his status as a bastard doesn't grant him the same rights as his legitimate siblings. For exemple:

"He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes"

“Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

Clearly he doesn't like the rules.Probably thinks they're unfair.But he's aware of them.

However ,if nobody told him so, it's probable that he wasn't aware that most bastards are not even raised with their legitimate siblings.

[Evamitchelle]

Catelyn spent an entire month not leaving Bran’s bedside while he was unconscious at the expense of Rickon, the additional household duties she placed on Luwin and Robb.

Her son, the one she doted on the most incidentally, was in a coma. There's this thing called grief that you may have heard of, mothers usually feel it when their children are in life or death situations. Furthermore, when she first started sleeping by Bran's bedside, Ned (you know, Rickon's father) was still around, so if you blame Cat for paying attention to her dying son over her healthy one maybe you should blame Ned for being the one who actually left in the middle of all that. In any case noble children are mostly taken care of by the "castle staff", not their parents (notice how Septa Mordane takes care of Arya and Sansa for example).

After the assassin tried to kill Bran, she immediately leaves Bran and the entire Stark household to go to Kings Landing and tell her husband, when sending Robb would have been just as effective. She claims that a Stark must remain in Winterfell, after 17 years, does she not think of herself as a Stark?

So.. you think she spent too much time not being productive but that she started being productive again too quickly ?

And she does not consider herself in the whole "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" thingy because she does not have Stark blood, unlike Robb.

On her return to Winterfell, Catelyn abducts Tyrion and then takes him to her sister Lysa Arryn’s castle The Eyrie to stand trial. This abduction immediately puts the most powerful house in Westeros the Lannisters at odds with the Starks. Tyrion elects trial by combat and Bronn fights on Tyrion’s behalf and kills the Arryn’s champion, thus allowing Tyrion to be freed and the arrest by Catelyn futile.

The arrest proves eventually futile because Lysa underestimates him and try to hard to pin her murder on him. I don't see why that's Cat's fault.

Robb is at Winterfell because Catelyn previously said that a Stark must always remain there. However, when Ned is arrested and put in the Black Cells, Robb collects the Stark banner men and marches to the Riverlands to war on the Lannisters and to eventually go to Kings Landing to free his father. On the way, he encounters Catelyn who was heading to Winterfell after Tyrion wins his freedom at the Eyrie. Robb wants Catelyn to return to Winterfell and tend to its duties; however, Catelyn is determined to stay with Robb as his council.

Probably because she figures that the her 15-year-old son, the self-proclaimed king who is fighting a war with the most powerful family in the Seven Kingdoms is in a more precarious position than the two younger sons who are inside thick castle walls that have never been breached before and surrounded by the men and women they have known all their lives ? She also had a dying father she was trying to spend some time with before he actually died.

This, puts all decisions relating to Winterfell in 10-year-old Bran’s hands who is trying to cope with becoming an invalid, something his mother has not seen of him or made any attempt to take any of the burden from him. It seems that she has now abdicated being the mother to being the politician.

Yes Bran is the one who makes all the decision, not Rodrik Cassel, who is actually the castellan of Winterfell and who, for example, decides on his own to lead 2,000 men to free Torrhen's Square (despite what the show might want you to think). Or Maester Luwin, who has studied at the Citadel for a good couple of years to serve in situations just like these, and who usually manages all this stuff anyway. Or the steward, who used to be Vayon Poole but has since been replaced. No, Bran is actually entirely alone in his giant castle and has no support from any of the men who supported his father before him.

Catelyn has now abandoned both Bran and Rickon in favor of playing some part in revenge for the attempts on Bran’s life and the arrest of Ned.

Did you somehow miss Catelyn's repetitive demands for peace throughout all 3 books ?! Some examples I could find :

- In AGoT, in her final chapter : "Why not a peace ?" Catelyn asked. [...] "We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and win my lord's freedom. Well, the one is done and the other forever beyond our reach."

- In Clash : "More bloodshed will not bring your father back to us, or Lord Rickard's sons", Catelyn said. "An offer had to be made - though a wiser man might have offered sweeter terms".

Also when she suggest allying with Renly instead of fighting him. Or when she keeps asking Robb to pursue a peace with the Lannisters or to exchange Jaime against the girls.

I'm sure there are more in Storm as well. In the end it's pretty clear that it's men like Robb and the Greatjon and Lord Karstark who want revenge the most, not Cat. All she does is ask them to make peace with the Lannisters, or at least to consider allying with Renly or Stannis, yet every time she is dismissed because "women are soft and gentle and don't understand war" or something. In the end they lost everything because they unable to see that Cat was right when she asked for peace.

To me this goes to show how strong Catelyn’s compulsion for revenge is.

She abdicates the needs of the house in order to sit beside Bran for a month.

I fail to see what is vengeful in this.

She then abdicates both the estate duties and the care for her unconscious child to personally inform Ned of the assassins attempt when Robb could easily have gone.

In this as well. But explain to me how it would have been better for the 14-year-old boy to go rather than the 35-year-old mother ? On the one hand you have a teenager, on the other a grown woman. Hum, what could possibly be the better choice ?

Without proof, she abducts Tyrion and doesn’t consider the possibility that a Lannister could find a champion in a trial by combat.

This isn't CSI. She didn't have hard evidence, but she had legitimate reasons to believe Tyrion to be guilty. Arresting him was never planned, she was forced into it when he deliberately pointed her presence out for all to see in the middle of a crowded inn while she was trying very hard to travel incognito. The whole point of the trip was to tell Ned in secret that the Lannisters were their enemies, having Tyrion spot her was basically ruining the whole thing. So she tried to turn the situation in her favour by capturing him as a hostage.

She forces her way onto Robb’s war council against Robb’s better judgement,

"against Robb's better judgement" really sounds like an oxymoron to me. The books show pretty clearly that his judgement was absolutely terrible in every domain except military strategy. (Marrying Jeyne Westerling, sending Theon back to the Iron Islands, not exchanging Jaime etc.)

therefore, abdicating her responsibility to Winterfell and her young children.

Because Robb is not young. Or her child.

The hatred that she had in finding Jon at Winterfell when she first arrived continued throughout the 17 years of their time together. The hatred that she has for Jon is also a sign of revenge, the revenge on her personal honor. In my opinion, it is beyond Catelyn’s ability to alter her compulsion for revenge.

Cat is unable to alter her compulsion for revenge ? You mean like the time she asked to make peace with her husband's murderers to prevent more death ? Or the time she freed the man who confessed to having thrown her son out of a window to try and save her daughters ?

[Evamitchelle]

The restricting laws against bastards inheriting are actually in place for a real reason -- If bastards and true born children had equal rights to inheritance, then there would be quite a few wars that broke out over inheritance. There is also no way of knowing whether a bastard child is actually really part of the line sans DNA testing. A rival lord could show up with a fake bastard and use the supposed claim to the deceased lord's lands.

I don't see your point. Of course they have a reason for preventing bastards inheriting, it's still an arbitrary law based on prejudice.

As for my point on restricting laws, I was arguing that there would have been more than just the laws curtailing inheritance if there was widespread blatant prejudice in Westros. The Faith, for instance, would prevent bastards from being knighted. It wouldn't be considered proper or customary for fathers to take care of their bastards. Bastard babies would be exposed.

All of Martin's roll call of cripples, bastards, and broken things face prejudice to varying degrees. However, the prejudice against bastards is actually not widespread and uniform as the prejudice against say Tyrion Lannister. There is a wide degree of variation in fathers' reactions to their bastards - the Sand Snakes vs. Mya Stone vs. Falia Flowers. It is sad that the children's advancement depends on luck, but all cripples, bastards, and broken things face that in Westros. It's an indictment against Westros' feudal system that those that don't conform to the norms of society are considered lesser people. However, there is nothing to suggest that bastards are a special case. Jon Snow, who conforms to social norms in every way except his birth, is probably going to be more accepted in society than Tyrion Lannister or Samwell Tarly.

Just because you think there is more prejudice towards disabled people or fat people does not invalidate the prejudice faced by bastards. It's like saying that racism is more harmful than sexism, and so sexism doesn't actually exist. Dwarves may be more at a disadvantage than bastards, but bastards are still at a disadvantage compared to trueborn people.

Actually, all the examples in question are of people with huge ulterior motives..

1. Ellaria Sand - This is mainly a Cersei example because she is a bitch and would discriminate against bastards because her status in society depends on keeping the status quo. There is also the fact that Ellaria is in an open sexual relationship with Oberyn. I'm sure that women forced into arranged marriages in their teens would be quite resentful of Ellaria.

2. Mya Stone - Mya wasn't going to be able to marry her squire because of money as well as status. She didn't have any dowry and wasn't Robert's acknowledged daughter. If her family had a sufficient dowry or Robert acknowledged her, then I think she would have been able to marry her squire. Littlefinger is quite sure that Alayne will marry Harry because he's able to provide her with a huge dowry.

3. Lysa Arryn - Is a bitch who tried to kill her teenaged niece. It isn't shocking that she'd have the same views on bastards as Cersei and Cat. However, it is pretty ironic that she was quite in love with someone who her father considered very below her station while saying that a bastard isn't suitable for her vile son.

4. Miranda Royce - Ah, the town gossip.

5. Sybell Spicer - And the town social climber. An acknowledged Lannister bastard was a much better marriage than the Westerlings could have hoped for under regular circumstances. The fact that Sybell Westerling thinks that Tywin Lannister is going to give her impoverished house a legitimate Lannister marriage shows her extreme delusions.

6. Edric Storm - This is part of Stannis's long list of grievances against Robert. Edric Storm is less about his status than about the fact that Robert got drunk and slept with a noble woman on Stannis's marriage night in Stannis and Selyse's bed. Despite this, Stannis didn't begrudge Edric Storm an education on Dragonstone in SOS or keep him away from Shireen.

So let me get this straight :

1. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Cersei is a bitch.

2. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Mya Stone doesn't have money or status. And the fact that she has none of those things is not due to bastardy.

3. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Lysa is a bitch.

4. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Miranda gossips a lot (and that invalidates the whole thing because... gossiping is bitchy ?).

5. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Sybell is a social-climbing bitch.

6. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Stannis lets him play with his daughter (now that one actually makes sense).

The only one that is acceptable to me is the last one with Stannis, though you should note that his behaviour is rather atypical for a King (his Hand being an ex-smuggler from Flea Bottom whom everyone else looks down on for example, or the fact that his standard-bearer is a woman and a priestess of R'hllor) and that you ignored Selyse. (But let me guess, she's a bitch too ?).

So basically 1, 3 and 5 are not acceptable to you because they are all bitches. Well I don't really see what that has got to do with anything, since being a bitch does not prevent one from being aware of social norms or what is expected in society. For one I don't think Cersei herself is prejudiced against bastards (note how she made one part of her small council), she is just responding to the fact that other ladies (whom you keep ignoring) would be insulted to be placed in the company of an unmarried bastard, and thus has to consider sitting her at her own separate table. In the same way Lysa and Sybel oppose marrying their sons to bastards because bastards are not considered proper nobles. They are also responding to the generally perceived status of bastards as social inferiors. Their "bitchiness" has nothing to do with it.

[Lummel]

Stannis and Selyse iirc are also the ones who think that if Edric Storm is burnt alive thus removing the stain from their marriage that they will be able to have more true born children.

Edric's mother is also a Florent so he's a cut above your bastard born to a common woman socially speaking.

[Summerqueen]

I didn't miss it and I'm sorry if you felt that I "jumped all over you" , I thought we were just discussing. My point is you're looking for a supplementary explanation where it is not needed and it makes me feel like you're trying to absolutely justify and rationalize every single negative reaction Catelyn has towards Jon and don't want to acknowledge that she can sometimes be biased about Jon on a non rational ground (which I repeat doesn't make her horrible or unworthy).

I'm sorry you think this is my agenda. I encourage you to read my comments fully and more closely. My goal is simple: Jon is a big, big threat, and not just a slap in the face over infidelity. When I made the post you find to be all kinds of unnecessary—perhaps go back to it and read it in the context of the posts before it, I thought the thread had dissolved into the posters mostly considering Cat as simply resenting Jon for being evidence of Ned's breach of faith with her. This stance does not take enough into consideration. She fears Jon for varied and valid reasons, not physically, not _only_ as a symbol of personal slight, but as someone who represents a threat on multiple fronts to her own children (from her or Jon's POVs, she is seen to fret that he takes the lion's share of fatherly pride, he could sire claimants to her son's birthright, he may be the sort of man who can inspire others to support him and may have a house behind him already, if his mother is highborn). As a woman who fears Jon and his potential, I think we can go so far as to justify her thus: fears can be rational (I would argue Cat's fears are), but our responses out of fear can be rather irrational sometimes (I argue Cat is only human, and her fears are going to occasionally provoke irrational behavior).

I may be wrong. And I still think that her reaction to the news of Jon wanting to join the Watch makes the hypothesis of here being extremely worried over the fact that Ned could decide to make Jon heir because he's better at arms/smarter/more like a stark rather unlikely.

but I don't think she is worried that Ned could make Jon heir, that's just something you think I said. I said she is worried that Ned would feel Jon is a worthier heir but is stuck with Robb. Though Jon could be legitimized if Ned married Jon's highborn mother after Cat died in childbirth or something, certainly, I didn't claim she was worried about Ned making Jon heir. It would take something extraordinary for Jon to inherit legally. I pointed to Jon possibly becoming puffed up by fatherly pride enough to work against Robb by sowing discord in the future. Ned's seeming preference or feeling that Jon would have made a worthier, more Stark-like heir to Winterfell could be used against Robb or his heirs at some later date with Ned's bannermen, such as when people are looking for reasons to promote a bastard's son over Robb's daughter or Sansa's probably Southron-reared children. She is worried how any mark of preference could be used by people seeking a less Tully/Baratheon/whatever other house warden of the North.

[Horza]

Stannis and Selyse iirc are also the ones who think that if Edric Storm is burnt alive thus removing the stain from their marriage that they will be able to have more true born children.

Selyse thinks that, Stannis just wants his stone dragon.

[Fantôme]

@Summerqueen

“Though Jon could be legitimized if Ned married Jon's highborn mother after Cat died in childbirth or something, certainly,”

Legitimized by who? From what we've read ,only royalty can legitimize a bastard. Which would make Catelyn's potential worry groundless. Unless you think she also considered Ned becoming King in the North or the Iron Throne caring enough to start legitimizing bastards in the north?

“I pointed to Jon possibly becoming puffed up by fatherly pride enough to work against Robb by sowing discord in the future. Ned's seeming preference or feeling that Jon would have made a worthier, more Stark-like heir to Winterfell could be used against Robb or his heirs at some later date with Ned's bannermen, such as when people are looking for reasons to promote a bastard's son over Robb's daughter or Sansa's probably Southron-reared children. She is worried how any mark of preference could be used by people seeking a less Tully/Baratheon/whatever other house warden of the North.”

Seriously, you don't think that saying Catelyn feared that the bannermen would notice Ned's (hypothetical) preference for his younger bastard son , would forget their duty and loyalty and use this totally worthless reason to claim that a bastard should inherit before his older, trueborn brother and all his other trueborn siblings, in spite of all their oaths and contempt for bastards, because of some paranoia about northeners not wanting any half-southeners as their lords , is just a little far-fetched. (not to mention groundless) ? I think Ned somehow finding a way to legitimize Jon with Catelyn being still alive is actually more likely. I understand you want to make a point that Jon can be seen as a really big threat for Catelyn but you could use existing reasons (which are numerous) instead of imagining a new one all on your own.

[kg1982]

I don't see your point. Of course they have a reason for preventing bastards inheriting, it's still an arbitrary law based on prejudice.

Actually it is quite essential for a feudal society - Renly cannot inherit before Stannis for the same reason. If fathers could choose their worthiest child, then there would be quite a few wars of succession. To make it less arbitrary, older sons come first. Bastards cannot inherit because there would always be uncertainty where the bastards came from.

Just because you think there is more prejudice towards disabled people or fat people does not invalidate the prejudice faced by bastards. It's like saying that racism is more harmful than sexism, and so sexism doesn't actually exist. Dwarves may be more at a disadvantage than bastards, but bastards are still at a disadvantage compared to trueborn people.

A lot of Westros are social pariahs then.. Most people are commoners or bastards or women or in some other way don't add up to the masculine martial ideal. Jon actually fits the ideal better than a large chuck of the other broken things in Westros and moves easier through society because of it.

As a woman, I agree that misogynism and sexism still exist in the workforce, especially in some sectors. However, I don't consider myself an outcast because sleazy Wall Street guy makes some remark about women. There are always going to be something who has prejudice against others.

So let me get this straight :

1. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Cersei is a bitch.

2. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Mya Stone doesn't have money or status. And the fact that she has none of those things is not due to bastardy.

3. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Lysa is a bitch.

4. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Miranda gossips a lot (and that invalidates the whole thing because... gossiping is bitchy ?).

5. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Sybell is a social-climbing bitch.

6. is not a proper example of prejudice against bastards because Stannis lets him play with his daughter (now that one actually makes sense).

The only one that is acceptable to me is the last one with Stannis, though you should note that his behaviour is rather atypical for a King (his Hand being an ex-smuggler from Flea Bottom whom everyone else looks down on for example, or the fact that his standard-bearer is a woman and a priestess of R'hllor) and that you ignored Selyse. (But let me guess, she's a bitch too ?).

So basically 1, 3 and 5 are not acceptable to you because they are all bitches. Well I don't really see what that has got to do with anything, since being a bitch does not prevent one from being aware of social norms or what is expected in society. For one I don't think Cersei herself is prejudiced against bastards (note how she made one part of her small council), she is just responding to the fact that other ladies (whom you keep ignoring) would be insulted to be placed in the company of an unmarried bastard, and thus has to consider sitting her at her own separate table. In the same way Lysa and Sybel oppose marrying their sons to bastards because bastards are not considered proper nobles. They are also responding to the generally perceived status of bastards as social inferiors. Their "bitchiness" has nothing to do with it.

The people above aren't basically responding to the social norms; they have their own personal reasons and are using the supposed norms to cover it up.

1. Don't you think that Cersei and the other ladies are a bit jealous of Ellaria Sand? She is in a satisfying sexual relationship of her own choosing; they are in loveless political marriages. That might be way they don't want to sit next to her.

2. If Mya Stone was the legitimate daughter of an impoverished hedge knight, then she would also not be able to marry her lover.

3. I think that here we're supposed to ponder the irony that it is totally okay for Lysa to love Littlefinger; it is not totally okay for Robert Arryn to marry a bastard despite the fact that Robert himself is disabled and Lysa couldn't make a good match for him even if he lived long enough. Hypocrisy - thy name is Lysa.

4. Miranda Royce is a gossip who makes an offhanded comment that doesn't offend Sansa. Miranda seems to think that "Alayne" is precious and doesn't seem to harbor any deep seeded ill will toward Littlefinger's bastard daughter (although I believe she is suspicious of the story).

5. The Joy Hill marriage is better than an impoverished house like the Westerlings could have hoped for. It's been pointed out on the many Jon threads that Ned actually could have made Jon a decent match with one of the younger daughters in say, the Mormont family. Most lower houses would be happy for the unexpected ties that the marriage would bring.

6. Stannis is a pretty by the book, traditional guy. If the prejudices were stronger against bastards, I think that he wouldn't let Edric anywhere near his daughter. Selyse probably has the same reasons for disdaining Edric Storm; what Robert did was equally humiliating to her. However, she is the one most responsible for Shireen's upbringing and let's Edric play with her daughter.

[Summerqueen]

@Fantome

You need to read my posts again. You do not understand what I wrote. You keep putting words in my mouth or ignoring key ingredients of my posts.

1. By the king? Presumably by good king Robert? You do realize that they were besties? Robert wouldn't have done Ned a solid? I mean we are talking hypothetically legitimizing a boy who was born to married people in advance of the marriage. Why would he refuse Ned's request in such a case?

2. What? Read it again. You are assuming a lot from what I wrote, or at the very least pulling my thoughts on the matter out of context. We see a lot about how the Northmen maneuver for power in the last book or so. We also see the lengths through which they go to justify their allegiance shifts. Let's not pretend that the Northmen are above petty greviences and deceit. Cat is not as blind as Ned about power. She understands and expects conniving. It seems obvious that she would also fear the connivance of those she does not trust.

In any case, I do not dispute Cat's stated concerns, Jon's implied idea of her concerns, or anything like that. I think there are plenty of concerns to go round, and many are only hinted at. I certainly do not think we have a full account of her fears from just those POVs, as every thought she has regarding Jon seems to Indicate general anxiety and some fresh concern.

I think it logical to suppose that Cat has probably thought of every variation of how Jon's existence could negatively impact her position or the position of her children. I also interpret her various expressed anxieties as a symptom of an ongoing tendency to dwell on the matter often, and every time we gain some insight through any of the POVs (her own, Jon's, Sansa's), the details suggest something in addition to what we knew about her previous concerns. I look at her thought patterns and conclude that Jon is one giant question mark to her. She spends a lot of time thinking about how his existence impacts her, and we probably don't know the half of it. Speculation is not inappropriate here.

So I'm just going to wrap it up.

I feel free to speculate about Cat's fear of what Jon's presence means for her and her progeny.

You think this is unnecessary.

I feel that we are given just a few examples of her fears (but she probably imagines the usurpation of her children's rights playing out in a variety of horrific ways rather than just thinking of bottom lines).

You think those specific end results are the only fears she has regarding Jon, that she does not imagine the ways and means that would generate the result, and that these imagined results do not indicate a pattern of fearful thought on the subject. I think this is how our approaches differ? If so, they are simply irreconcilable.

(Edited to elaborate and to bow out of further pointless sallying.)

[Evamitchelle]

Actually it is quite essential for a feudal society - Renly cannot inherit before Stannis for the same reason. If fathers could choose their worthiest child, then there would be quite a few wars of succession. To make it less arbitrary, older sons come first. Bastards cannot inherit because there would always be uncertainty where the bastards came from.and the only reason they

And ? Where did I contradict the usefulness of preventing bastards from inheriting ? They still can't inherit unless legitimized by royal decree (and apparently even after that they still only inherit after younger sons and daughters according to the Wiki), and the only reason they can't do that is because of an arbitrary circumstance of birth.

A lot of Westros are social pariahs then.. Most people are commoners or bastards or women or in some other way don't add up to the masculine martial ideal. Jon actually fits the ideal better than a large chuck of the other broken things in Westros and moves easier through society because of it.

Well yes, Westeros society has prejudices against a whole lot of people : women, commoners, disabled people, fat people, homosexuals etc. and that includes bastards as well. Jon is less discriminated against than say, Tyrion because he fits the Warrior ideal, but he still faces more prejudice than if he were trueborn : i.e. not being ahead of Bran or Sansa in the line of inheritance or being reminded of his bastard status by most people he meets.

As a woman, I agree that misogynism and sexism still exist in the workforce, especially in some sectors. However, I don't consider myself an outcast because sleazy Wall Street guy makes some remark about women. There are always going to be something who has prejudice against others.

Individual prejudice isn't ever going away, but I'm hoping institutionalized prejudice will. It's great that you don't feel like an outcast, but the fact remains that (white) women in the US only make 77 cents of a white man's dollar for the exact same job (and African-American women make 62, and Hispanic women 54), so institutionalized sexism isn't entirely gone yet. And it's not just in the workforce either (the ever-growing numbers of law curtailing women's reproductive rights are an example). It doesn't mean that women can't ever be successful, but it does mean that they start out with a disadvantage compared to their male counterparts. Same goes for bastards in Westeros compared to their non-bastards counterparts.

The people above aren't basically responding to the social norms; they have their own personal reasons and are using the supposed norms to cover it up.

1. Don't you think that Cersei and the other ladies are a bit jealous of Ellaria Sand? She is in a satisfying sexual relationship of her own choosing; they are in loveless political marriages. That might be way they don't want to sit next to her.

2. If Mya Stone was the legitimate daughter of an impoverished hedge knight, then she would also not be able to marry her lover.

3. I think that here we're supposed to ponder the irony that it is totally okay for Lysa to love Littlefinger; it is not totally okay for Robert Arryn to marry a bastard despite the fact that Robert himself is disabled and Lysa couldn't make a good match for him even if he lived long enough. Hypocrisy - thy name is Lysa.

4. Miranda Royce is a gossip who makes an offhanded comment that doesn't offend Sansa. Miranda seems to think that "Alayne" is precious and doesn't seem to harbor any deep seeded ill will toward Littlefinger's bastard daughter (although I believe she is suspicious of the story).

5. The Joy Hill marriage is better than an impoverished house like the Westerlings could have hoped for. It's been pointed out on the many Jon threads that Ned actually could have made Jon a decent match with one of the younger daughters in say, the Mormont family. Most lower houses would be happy for the unexpected ties that the marriage would bring.

6. Stannis is a pretty by the book, traditional guy. If the prejudices were stronger against bastards, I think that he wouldn't let Edric anywhere near his daughter. Selyse probably has the same reasons for disdaining Edric Storm; what Robert did was equally humiliating to her. However, she is the one most responsible for Shireen's upbringing and let's Edric play with her daughter.

1. There may be a component of envy in these women's reactions, but the fact that she's a bastard is integral to their reaction as well. I'm pretty sure these ladies wouldn't be as offended by Lynesse Hightower showing up at the wedding and sitting among them as they would with Ellaria. Also, not all political marriages are miserable like Cersei and Robert's (see Ned and Cat, that couple Tyrion wishfully observes at the wedding or Garland and Leonette) so saying that these ladies are all jealous of Ellaria because they hate their husbands is a gross generelization.

2. Maybe that's so, but then explain to me why Sansa, whose social courtesies are impeccable, finds the idea of passing as the Lord of Harrenhals natural daughter horrifying but the idea of being the trueborn daughter of some knight perfectly acceptable if bastards are not one step further down the social ladder than hedge knights ?

3. He's the Lord of the Eyrie, she wouldn't have any trouble finding him a wife (or do you think Walder Frey seduced his six wives with his good looks and personality ?)

4. Myranda still draws a clear distinction between herself and Alayne and considers her socially inferior. It doesn't stop her from socializing with her (Marillion's lowborn status didn't stop her from "socializing" with him either), but that doesn't mean she considers Alayne her equal in terms of rank. Prejudice isn't always in-your-face hatred.

5. Well the Mormont house is probably the worst example you could have chosen out of the northern houses. For one, Bear Island is a rock in the middle of the sea with nothing but forest and bears. The Hightowers, who are just a step under the Great Houses, considered it well below their station. Jorah's first wife was from House Glover, which isn't even a Noble house but a Masterly one. And then there's also the fact that no one actually knows who fathered Maege Mormont's daughters, which makes them pretty close to bastard territory themselves. So the Mormonts aren't exactly the height of Northern society. As for Joy Hill, if marrying a Lannister bastard was such a great catch, why was she only promised to a Frey bastard herself and not a trueborn second/third son or something ?

6. Except that Stannis doesn't really care what other people think, or he wouldn't have made a Flea Bottom smuggler his Hand. How is that traditional and by the book ?

And I don't think Selyse was the one in charge of Shireen's upbringing. I think Maester Cressen mostly filled that role (as shown by the fact that 10-year-old Shireen goes to him when she has a bad dream, and not her own mother).

So basically in all these example we have The Queen Regent and soon-to-be Lady of Casterly Rock, The Regent of the Vale, the Lady of Dragonstone/Queen in the Narrow Sea, Myranda of House Royce, Lady Sybell Spicer Westerling and Sansa of House Stark all thinking that bastards are socially inferior to other nobles or even knights. And if you add the way Lord Hewett treats his bastard daughter you have at least one example for every kingdom except Dorne of a high-ranking noble viewing bastards as their social inferior. How is that not indicative of a larger trend ?

[mormont]

The problem with Jon knowing his place is, that a bastard's place is not well defined. Sure, they are treated worse than non-bastards and face difficulties and prejudice but to a varying degree.

This is true. But on the other hand, exceptions don't disprove a rule: variance in the degree of prejudice doesn't mean that there isn't a norm. There is. And Jon is treated considerably better than the norm, to the point where he seems to think it was at least socially possible for him to have been seated at the high table at the feast.

Being upset when he couldn't sit with the royal family wasn't even about not knowing his place. You can be upset about things you know as well. The problem lay in Jon's ambiguous situation, he was treated as part of the family in most things, of course the occasions when he wasn't hurt him.

This is true also, but there's no doubt from the text that Jon considered it at least possible that he could have been seated there. If he always knew it was impossible, and accepted it, but still found it painful: well, that doesn't seem to fit his thoughts, to me. YMMV.

Actually Mya didn't know her place either, did she? She seriously believed the squire will marry her.

Correct. But that's romance for you. ;)

kg1982, I think we need to take a step back and look at this again, starting with the bits we agree on. We agree, I think, that there is significant social prejudice against bastards in Westeros. (Although at one point it did look like you were denying this, in which case I would actually find it pointless to continue.) We agree that some bastards can rise above this social prejudice. We agree that Jon was treated with a great deal less prejudice and more privilege than most other bastards.

The conclusion I reach from this is that Jon was literally unaware of what the 'normal' place of a bastard was, and that as a result of being unaware of these boundaries (and of being allowed, if not implicitly encouraged, to ignore them by Ned) he couldn't help but inadvertently step out of 'place'. And this would upset Cat. In fact, this seems to me to be merely a way of describing what I think we all accept as fact: that Jon's unusual treatment and extraordinary intimacy with his legitimate siblings was a big part of why Cat found his presence difficult to handle. That's all I'm saying. That, and that it follows from this that it's unrealistic to expect that same intimacy to simultaneously work the other way, and make her more accepting of him.

[Fantôme]

@ Summerqueen

I do not think so.I think some of your speculations are likely while some others are not. It just seems to me that you apply words like "probable" and "surely" to really far-fetched assumption. Besides I assure you I've read your posts,and more than once, even if I phrase what you've written differently in order to point out the problems I find in your hypothesis .But it seems you just won't admit any loophole or problem in your logic or a slightly subjective opinion so you're right, there's no point in going on with this discussion. Have a nice day.