Less examined bits of the AA prophecy

[Cheese Pudding]

Tze :bowdown:

Great interpretation skills. Now I'm sticking with Jon or Bran as AA.

[Mark Sawyer]

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings."

The two aforementioned kings are Rhaegar and Jon...Jon dies at the end of ADWD and will be reborn...duh!!!!

[Mark Sawyer]

The two aforementioned kings are Rhaegar and Jon...Jon dies at the end of ADWD and will be reborn...duh!!!!

[Corm]

Rhaegar was never a king, he died before his father on the Trident, he never succeeded to kingship.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Could this open the door to Ned making a return?

No.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Wow, just when I think a thread has gone quiet, Tze comes in with something mind blowing. That's easily my favorite interpretation of the "smoke and salt" yet. I would absolutely love for the R'hollorists to be hit upside the head with the realization that their anticipated fiery hero is entirely an icy one more aligned with their idea of the "Great Other."

I always liked Apple's idea of the dragon having three heads meaning that the one dragon has three important aspects. However, I wasn't so sure about those three aspects (of Jon as the dragon here) being simply Targ ancestry, Stark ancestry, and Lord commander of the NW. Ancestry and a profession or position in a sworn brotherhood just seemed a little too universally accessible. But then I remembered all the Maggy the Frog shenanigans, and whether "golden crowns" just meant golden heads, or actually being crowned a king or queen. Bingo!

So what I propose is this. If Jon is the dragon of the prophecy who must have three heads, couldn't something have gotten lost of confused in translation, so that the real meaning is that the dragon must have three crowns? In English, the word head is synonymous with the alternate, and less used meaning of the word crown. The dragon has three crowns. So counting Jon's crowns accumulated thus far:

1. Rhaegar's heir and therefore the rightful Targaryen King. King in the South

2. Robb's heir and rightful (if bound by vow to the wall) King in the North

3. The crown he may be assuming upon his revival in TWOW as The Night's King

Why the Night's King instead of King Beyond the Wall? Because personally I think the latter position is hella made up, and may even have come into being as a direct product of the office of the Night's King being obliterated. And also, this is a fantasy story, we need some fantasy. And most importantly for me, I think the NK is a huge Chekov's gun that needs to go off, and I don't take at face value the story we have of him thus far, that he was some evil thing, bane of humanity and all that is good and holy. I don't think the Night's King was just a one-time psycho, but a real position that was obliterated for some not very wholesome reason.

So I guess that's our Ice Dragon and his three crowns. Now to link that back to the two kings who must die to awaken dragons from stone. There are several ways to look at it. The one I find most elegant, is the idea that two kings did die - in Jon - in order for the third king to be born (yes, I am entirely ignoring the father-son thing for this interpretation, because that may well have been Mel just trying to rationalize the two kings bit of the prophecy). Jon was already the Targ King/King in the South and King in the North before his stabbing, unbeknownst to him.

The second way of looking at it is that the previous holder of Jon's two worldly crowns - Rhaegar and Robb - both had to die, after which the son/heir and successive King, Jon, also died. For Jon to be reborn into his third crown, the two sets of deaths had to occur. It's not strictly father-son, but it is a King/heir relationship, which is absolutely necessary to wake the dragon - for Jon to be reborn and fulfill the prophecy, he must die, either literally of symbolically.

[chris999]

I still think that AA and TPTWP are two different prophesies/people. It makes it a lot easier and more simple.

AA is a Ry'llor legend that is over 8000 years old. Mel thinks it is Stannis, but I think it is Dany.

TPTWP is a Targaryan prophesy that is about 400 years old. Jon is TPTWP.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Could this open the door to Ned making a return?

I absolutely adore Ned, but what I'd adore more is if he stayed dead.

[chris999]

Yeah,yeah, I just couldn't get round to replying :-)

THe idea that "smoke and salt" might actually be "mist/fog/fume and snow" is ingenious. And, if it is truly the correct interpretation of a magnificent red herring, I know of a place that fits the description - Winterfell. With the steaming warm springs and the shroud of snow... and the stone dragon rising.

Are you implying it is Arya or Bran then? Because Jon was not born in Winterfell.

[Dragonfish]

AA is a Ry'llor legend that is over 8000 years old. Mel thinks it is Stannis, but I think it is Dany.

TPTWP is a Targaryan prophesy that is about 400 years old. Jon is TPTWP.

I don't think we know the origins of either one of these prophecies, so I'm not sure where you're getting your info for this.

[chris999]

Could this open the door to Ned making a return?

I know this doesnt have anything to do with the thread, but personally, I think that Ned may have a role to play still in this story.

I dont think he will come back in his human form, but I do think that he may be living either a 'second life' or he may have some important dialogue (hopefully a whole chapter's worth) that Bran will see through the trees.

[chris999]

I don't think we know the origins of either one of these prophecies, so I'm not sure where you're getting your info for this.

Azor Ahai was a legendary warrior that fought 8000 years ago during the Long Night. Legend of his return are found in books from Asshai that are over 5000 years old.

TPTWP is a prophesy that comes from a Targaryan princess in Valarya about 100 years before Aegon's landing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So what I propose is this. If Jon is the dragon of the prophecy who must have three heads, couldn't something have gotten lost of confused in translation, so that the real meaning is that the dragon must have three crowns? In English, the word head is synonymous with the alternate, and less used meaning of the word crown. The dragon has three crowns. So counting Jon's crowns accumulated thus far:

1. Rhaegar's heir and therefore the rightful Targaryen King. King in the South

2. Robb's heir and rightful (if bound by vow to the wall) King in the North

3. The crown he may be assuming upon his revival in TWOW as The Night's King

I like this a lot, too, even if I'm not sure how the third crown would work out. And yes it is true that "golden crowns" can also mean "golden heads" or "golden hair" when it comes to Cersei's kids. I argue it all the time when someone says "Myrcella hasn't been crowned yet!" or whatever.

So basically what you're saying is that we could have a prophecy where "crown" may refer to "head," and another where "head" may refer to "crown." Symmetry. :D

[Lykos]

<snip>

AA is a Ry'llor legend that is over 8000 years old. Mel thinks it is Stannis, but I think it is Dany.

TPTWP is a Targaryan prophesy that is about 400 years old. Jon is TPTWP.

I think it´s only mentioned that the legend of AA was written down in ancient books from Asshai (5000 years ago).

And TPTWP comes either from Sign and Portents which is a collection of visions from before the doom of Valyria ( so older than 600 years), or from the Ghost of High Heart in which case it would be a little over 100 years old.

[Eyron]

RevengeOfTheStarks, I like that idea a lot, and it ties into the idea of Bloodraven seeing Jon's purpose of him being both King in the North and the heir to the Iron throne.

I still think that the two kings could be Aerys and Aegon VI. Rhaegars father, and son, the king and the heir. When Aerys died, Aegon became king. The king is dead - long live the king, meaning that the heir becomes king immediately. It seems Aegon died very near Jon's birth.

The reason I find this so appealing is that Jon was never a prince, he went straight to being king, and Rhaegar was only ever a prince. So if the promised one was a king, why do the prophecy speak of a promised prince? I think Rhaegar could still be the prince that was promised, and his deed was to have a son, Jon. As someone said earlier, Jon was "forged" by Lyannas death á la Nissa Nissa. Jon is the king that can unite the realm, and that is what Bloodraven wanted as I mentioned earlier.

[Dragonfish]

Azor Ahai was a legendary warrior that fought 8000 years ago during the Long Night. Legend of his return are found in books from Asshai that are over 5000 years old.

Do you have a quote for this? I don't recall reading this.

TPTWP is a prophesy that comes from a Targaryan princess in Valarya about 100 years before Aegon's landing.

Are you referring to Aenar Targaryen's daughter? The prophecies she made were lost. We have no idea if the PWWP prophecy came from her.

Also, we don't know when Aenar and his daughter lived. We only know that they were in Valyria before the Doom.

[chris999]

I think it´s only mentioned that the legend of AA was written down in ancient books from Asshai (5000 years ago).

And TPTWP comes either from Sign and Portents which is a collection of visions from before the doom of Valyria ( so older than 600 years), or from the Ghost of High Heart in which case it would be a little over 100 years old.

Exactly. The AAreborn legend is at least 5000 years old, but the PTWP legend was from old Valarya about 100 years before Aegon's Landing.

One legend is thousands of years older than the other.

[Dacie]

<snip>

I love this idea also!

Again, so much good stuff here, most of which I've not seen mentioned before.

[chris999]

Do you have a quote for this? I don't recall reading this.

Are you referring to Aenar Targaryen's daughter? The prophecies she made were lost. We have no idea if the PWWP prophecy came from her.

Also, we don't know when Aenar and his daughter lived. We only know that they were in Valyria before the Doom.

I think Lykos has more knowledge on the subject than I do.

I know that the ASOIAF wiki has the the info, but I dont know if it can be counted as 100% accurate.

From what I can remember though (dont feel like looking it up again right now) The targaryan prophecy comes from a dream that the Targ princess has in Old Valarya a feww hundred years ago.

It could be that the girl just had a vision that expands on the much older AA legend, but I think it is a different prophecy altogether.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If it's a different prophecy, that still doesn't mean that it references a completely different person. Like I said, I just have a very hard time with the idea that each religion is batting 1.000 in predicting its golden boy (or girl). Seeing how Martin handles religions, it makes a good deal of sense, to me, that we're seeing one person from multiple angles, with each religion amplifying the features it thinks are important (fire aspects, royalty aspects, ice aspects, whatever). Religion in general is treated with a level of such skepticism that it would almost feel ... trite ... if the red priests got their (wo)man, the Valyrians got theirs, the Dothraki got theirs, the Northmen got theirs and so on.

I wish someone could ask Martin about this. Even if he gave his vague "we'll see" sort of answer, it'd at least be something to chew on.