Less examined bits of the AA prophecy

[Sofia Aillard]

Along with wondering who Jon's real parents are, I've also wondered what Jon's real name is. I can't imagine that Lyanna wouldn't have a name for her child, although it could be quite awkward if she called him Rhaegar Jr. But if having that real name might give us some insight into other things.

How disappointing would it be if his real name is Rhaego and that's why the Dosh Khaleen saw the Stallion Who Mounts The World? :drool: I'm just kidding... I just hate to see prophecies go unrealized.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Theon. In the Godswood. Bran officiating, Stannis executing. Theon’s life will pay for Jon’s.

That may be true, but Bran doesn't give a crap about Theon. Theon is not Bran's Nissa Nissa. Theon's life might pay for Jon's in the end but if so it won't be through the AA/ Nissa Nissa relationship

[PatrickStormborn]

How disappointing would it be if his real name is Rhaego and that's why the Dosh Khaleen saw the Stallion Who Mounts The World? :drool: I'm just kidding... I just hate to see prophecies go unrealized.

It's quite likely that the dosh khaleen simply misunderstood the prophecy because they did not believe that a woman (i.e. Daenerys) could be the one true khal of the Dothraki.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Bran doesn't give a crap about Theon. Theon is not Bran's Nissa Nissa. Theon's life might pay for Jon's in the end but if so it won't be through the AA/ Nissa Nissa relationship

Bran might have Theon's life pay for Jon's (although I personally don't think that's what's going to happen) without Theon being a Nissa Nissa figure, per se.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Bran might have Theon's life pay for Jon's (although I personally don't think that's what's going to happen) without Theon being a Nissa Nissa figure, per se.

Yeah, definitely. I agree with you and cryptic weirwood that it seems like that might be Theon's fate, unless Bran just wants him taken to the weirwood to communicate something through leaf rustling, lol. It's just, at that point the Bran as AA theory breaks down a bit, unless the idea is that in order for Bran to have that kind of power, to bring Theon and Stannis to the weirwood and use Theon's life to revive Jon, he had to give up his freedom and contact with all other human beings.

[Euphail]

Yeah, definitely. I agree with you and cryptic weirwood that it seems like that might be Theon's fate, unless Bran just wants him taken to the weirwood to communicate something through leaf rustling, lol. It's just, at that point the Bran as AA theory breaks down a bit, unless the idea is that in order for Bran to have that kind of power, to bring Theon and Stannis to the weirwood and use Theon's life to revive Jon, he had to give up his freedom and contact with all other human beings.

Could Bran warg Theon and explain the situation? It's said warging is easier on those with weak minds (Hodor) and Theons mind is considerably broken.

[House Mauldania]

Maybe Theon's kingsblood will heal Bran and he will be able to walk again. Nah.... Theon is pretty much as good as dead though, but how and to what end.

[House Mauldania]

Could Bran warg Theon and explain the situation? It's said warging is easier on those with weak minds (Hodor) and Theons mind is considerably broken.

I like that possibility..

[kissdbyfire]

What does anyone think about the theories that it truly was Rhaegar?

Rhaegar's Nissa Nissa could be Lyanna. Lyanna dies giving birth to Rhaegar's child. Together they made Jon Snow, who would not be Azor Ahai, but actually Lightbringer.

You say crackpot, but I've always thought the way Theon sees Lyanna is his dream of that feast with the dead in ACoK quite odd. I mean, all the talk of 'bed of blood' being complications in childbirth, but he sees her in a white gown spattered in gore.

"The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna."

I've always thought that this vision of Lyanna might point to a violent death rather than childbirth.

[Lykos]

I am not sure that the "two kings" thing is part of the AA prophecy. I though that was just another spell Melisandre was trying like the one with the leeches.

:agree:

<snip>

I don´t think that Rhaegar was knowingly following Rh´llor, but I believe that he was used. He was led to believe in the prophesy of the Ptwp, by books of early Targaryen visions i.e. Sign and Portents and the Ghost of High Heart´s prophesy that the Ptwp was coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

I believe the visions in Sign and Portents were influenced by Rh´llor followers, so I think it likely that they were speaking of the Azor Ahai legend.

It is speculated that the Ghost of High Heart is a CotF, in which case I don´t think her prophesy was refering to AA, but to the Last Hero, who sought out the CotF to end the Long Night. I am not shure about the Ghost of the High Heart, however, but I don´t believe that AA is the Last Hero.

I think that Lyanna has added the mysteries of the North, probably believing that the Ptwp was the LH or another important Hero, half Stark and half magical. I believe that Brandon the Builder was at least half CotF and founded House Stark.

I think this will lead to all factions believing that Jon is to fulfill their legend / prophesy, which means that Jon is in a position to conciliate, but he will have to walk the blade of a WW.

I think the legend of the forging of Lightbringer as Salladhor Saan tells it to Davos is not part of Melisandre´s sales pitch. Davos I Clash:

It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero´s blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began.

The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast´s red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split.

Great was his woe and was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do. A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. „Nissa Nissa“, he said to her, for that was her name, „bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in the world.“ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart.

It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

Be glad it is just a burnt sword... Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns.

In Tyrion II in Clash, only two chapters before, Varys tells Tyrion:

Varys smiled. Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.(Tyrion)So power is a mummer´s trick? A shadow on the wall, Varys murmured, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.

I think the legend of Azor Ahai is equivalent to the story of Prometheus, with roots in true history as in the epic of Gilgamesh. Azor Ahai (Man) developes technology to fight the darkness. First he fights for shelter from the elemental forces of nature like floods (water) then he fights the wild beasts and puts them to his use (lion) but it´s not enough for man he defies his own nature and resorts to magic to fight death (Nissa Nissa).

I think the prophesies around AA reborn are attempts of the followers of Rh´llor to manipulate men and to further magic. And it depends on wether man believe in the power of these prophesies, for them to come true. I think the "Children"/Greenseers have allready started to influence these believes. And Bloodraven is throwing Melisandre off balance right now.

A face took shape within the hearth ... a wooden face, corpse white, was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames, he sees me. Beside him a boy, with a wolf´s face, threw back his head and howled. The red priestess shuddered, blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an extasy filling her, searing her, transforming her, shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin insistant as a lover´s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long passed. Melony, she heard a woman cry. A man´s voice called, lot 7. She was weeping, and her tears were flame...then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out afterward only the skulls remained. Death, thought Melisandre, the skulls are death...Dawn, another day is given us. R´hllor be praised. The terrors of the night recede. ...She feared to dream. Sleep is the little death, and dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. ...beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger and should he win, the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face, that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No shurly not, his visage would be more frightening than that. Cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. ...they were his servants shurely, his champions, as Stannis was hers.

*****

@Apple Martini: Can you explain the term Stepford Savior? Google gives me your post as second result, and the first and latter don´t make much sense in this context to me.

Edited some corrections.

[kissdbyfire]

@Lykos, The Stepford Wives

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073747/

There's a remake as well. It sucks.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You say crackpot, but I've always thought the way Theon sees Lyanna is his dream of that feast with the dead in ACoK quite odd. I mean, all the talk of 'bed of blood' being complications in childbirth, but he sees her in a white gown spattered in gore.

"The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna."

I've always thought that this vision of Lyanna might point to a violent death rather than childbirth.

Actually childbirth can be very bloody, especially if there's a hemorrhage. There's also the afterbirth and general ... goo ... to think of. So I don't see much issue there — when they say "bed of blood," they mean it.

@Apple Martini: Can you explain the term Stepford Savior? Google gives me your post as second result, and the first and latter don´t make much sense in this context to me.

It's a Stepford Wives reference. Basically it just means that I highly dislike the idea of every religion getting its own cookie-cutter savior to its exact specifications.

I expect this thread to be locked shortly as it's sailed past 400 posts. When it is, I'll start a new one and try to paraphrase some of the new ideas people have had. :)

[kissdbyfire]

Actually childbirth can be very bloody, especially if there's a hemorrhage. There's also the afterbirth and general ... goo ... to think of. So I don't see much issue there — when they say "bed of blood," they mean it.

Oh, I've no doubts about that at all. And with rhat still being true today, we can picture how much bloodier it was in medieval times. But I still think that description of Lyanna's gown could indicate something different...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh, I've no doubts about that at all. And with rhat still being true today, we can picture how much bloodier it was in medieval times. But I still think that description of Lyanna's gown could indicate something different...

Some of that too may depend on how Theon thinks Lyanna died. "Gore" has violent connotations, you're absolutely right. But again, it's all about perception. To someone who didn't know that Lyanna had died in childbirth and perhaps, for all we know, thinks she was violently raped and/or murdered, a bloody gown could be considered "splattered with gore," even if we know it's actually from childbirth.

[kissdbyfire]

Some of that too may depend on how Theon thinks Lyanna died. "Gore" has violent connotations, you're absolutely right. But again, it's all about perception. To someone who didn't know that Lyanna had died in childbirth and perhaps, for all we know, thinks she was violently raped and/or murdered, a bloody gown could be considered "splattered with gore," even if we know it's actually from childbirth.

Yes, of course, excellent point! He probably thinks she was raped, and this can explain why she appears like this in his dream. But... that whole dream is weird. Because he sees all the people who have died, I think in part because he feels guilty, the little prick. But Robb and Grey Wind were still alive, and he sees them bleeding from many wounds. Could this be a prophetic dream? IIRC, he was sleeping in Eddard's weirwood bed. And if this is a prophetic dream (partially, at least), could the way he sees Lyanna mean something else, perhaps?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes, of course, excellent point! He probably thinks she was raped, and this can explain why she appears like this in his dream. But... that whole dream is weird. Because he sees all the people who have died, I think in part because he feels guilty, the little prick. But Robb and Grey Wind were still alive, and he sees them bleeding from many wounds. Could this be a prophetic dream? IIRC, he was sleeping in Eddard's weirwood bed. And if this is a prophetic dream (partially, at least), could the way he sees Lyanna mean something else, perhaps?

I wouldn't read that much into it. If I remember, Ned, Robert and Lyanna were already "at" the "feast," meaning, already dead. Robb and Grey Wind were merely "arriving," which might be a way of suggesting that their deaths — namely through Theon's betrayal that kick-started all of those events — had already been set into motion, even if they weren't technically dead yet. So it'd be prophetic in that sense, but the people he sees already there are actually already dead.

[kissdbyfire]

I wouldn't read that much into it. If I remember, Ned, Robert and Lyanna were already "at" the "feast," meaning, already dead. Robb and Grey Wind were merely "arriving," which might be a way of suggesting that their deaths — namely through Theon's betrayal that kick-started all of those events — had already been set into motion, even if they weren't technically dead yet. So it'd be prophetic in that sense, but the people he sees already there are actually already dead.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Mind you, I'm not sold on this at all. I just think that dream has an overall weird feeling to me. Also, good point about the people who were already dead and the 'setting in motion' Robb and Grey Wind's deaths. And maybe 'prophetic' is not the best word here.

[Lykos]

@Apple Martini & Kissedbyfire

This is interesting. Lummel recently sugested that the weirwood tools and furniture retain the memory of their former users, so maybe Ned´s and Theon´s memories merged in Theon´s dream.

I think that the dreams, visions and prophesies have several layers relevance: For us the readers, the characters having/interpreting them and both combined for the authenticity of the story. This is especially true if there are parallels to be found, as in Jon´s dream.

All the, parallels I looked at seem to be deliberate and make a lot of sense as the story unfolds, which is very remarkable, considering that GRRM describes himself as a "gardener" type of writer, who lets the story grow.

Edited because the board is messing with me.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm waiting to see if/when they lock this. I don't want to get into another long-ish convo if the thread's going to be locked.

Plus I have a list of discussion points for v.2, because I'm a dorkwad.

[kissdbyfire]

Well, we'll continue in the v2 incarnation of the thread then!

:-)