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Less examined bits of the AA prophecy


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It's because of the D&E instances that I'm leery of literally read dragon prophecies in the main story, but some people disagree.

Gotcha. I'm personally leery of making any reading whatsoever of Martin's prophecies. I think he purposefully muddies the waters so that we won't understand until the events actually come to pass. A great example is the 'mummer's dragon' from the House of the Undying. There are at least three reasonable ways to interpret the significance of the word 'mummer's' - and that's assuming the phrase describes Varys's Aegon.

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"Robert was a true king? " By blood no, he was not a Targaryan, nor all the Targ were dead... he took the throne for himself! By that day forward his blood became "blood of king" his bastard's blood had some magical powers that was supposed to be unique to king's blood (accourdlying with Mel).

Khal Drogo (and every Khal) becomes a "king" by conquering.. I think that when someone becomes king, his blood becomes magical, and his descendents too.. Is the only way to explain...

Every king is originaly a thief they conquer the world, take our freedom away, and asks us to reconginize them... there after all his descedents are magicaly Kings.

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And so many of the people interpreting the prophecy keep thinking the dragons referenced are actual dragons, instead of symbolic ones, i.e., Targs. You'd think they never read the Dunk & Egg stories, or something.

Oh, sowwy. I was actually referring to the characters in the book interpreting the prophecy and trying to make a little joke. I think the characters, especially Aemon, who was actually there, should have more insight than readers. No criticism of people who haven't read D&E stories intended.

ETA: Robert Baratheon was actually the grandson or great-grandson of a Targ. That was considered to give his claim legitimacy and that's why he took the throne.

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Oh, sowwy. I was actually referring to the characters in the book interpreting the prophecy and trying to make a little joke. I think the characters, especially Aemon, who was actually there, should have more insight than readers. No criticism of people who haven't read D&E stories intended.

Ohhhhh OK, sorry.

On that token though, that people in the books are taking the dragons literally should be a red flag. I keep saying this, and I know people think I'm nuts, but at this point, if a "solution" has been "figured out" or "offered up" in the books, it's not really a solution. And this doesn't just refer to the AA thing. It goes back to my "sneaky truths vs. outright lies" thread. If someone in the story says one thing and they're very sure about it, you know it's either not true or isn't what it seems.

People probably don't believe me, but I figured that AA probably wasn't Dany (or something else was at work here) in Feast, before I started vehemently disliking her. I was so sure it was her, she fit everything ... and then Aemon said it was her. My bullshit detector went off and I haven't looked back. The red priests in Dance saying that it's her only make me feel more comfortable about my position.

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Well consider my mind effing blown. Now I'm wondering if the "father and son" thing is even in the prophecy, or if it's specific to Mance and his son, because they just need two kings. If they just need two kings and any will do, it's a whole new ballgame.

This is a good question, but staying with the father and son theme, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has brought up Aerys and Viserys as the father and son. If you're making the case (which I don't subscribe to, but let's go through it anyway) that Dany is AA reborn, Aerys's death technically would've made Aegon VI king, but nobody knew enough to proclaim him such, and he died shortly thereafter. For all intents and purposes, the succession went from Aerys to Viserys. Viserys's death is really the beginning of Dany's awakening to the idea of her own "dragonhood."

I don't know if we'll ever find out which parts of the AA prophecy are orginal, but like much messianic mythology in our own world, it seems like the AA legend has grown with the retelling. The parts of Benerro's sermon that you recounted, Martini, sound like recent embellishments or appeals to heightened messianic fervor on the part of the Red Priests. Promises like the redemption of a fallen world, resurrection of the faithful, death "bending the knee," and similar rewards for the faithful are very typical of messianic messages in times of great desperation.

The longer a society goes from the introduction of a messianic story or idea to its peak of popularity, the more gets grafted onto the story, especially when we're talking about ways of recognizing the promised figure and the stakes of the conflict. Each generation interprets the story in light of its own struggles and makes additions to help keep the story meaningful for its members. I suspect that much of what Benerro is preaching is not strictly canon, but his own interpretation of a very old story with few certain details. Whether we can rely on Benerro's promises and predictions is a big question, and while I find his preaching interesting, red flags went up the moment that I read it in Dance.

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I suspect that much of what Benerro is preaching is not strictly canon, but his own interpretation of a very old story with few certain details. Whether we can rely on Benerro's promises and predictions is a big question, and while I find his preaching interesting, red flags went up the moment that I read it in Dance.

Interesting point, and I definitely agree on the last part. It would be very helpful to know exactly where everyone is getting their information.

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Mel seems to think that AA will hatch dragon eggs. I also noticed that she thinks that AA and TPWWP are the same person yet still thinks that Stannis is AA.

They are the same person, Mel doesn't know about the woods witch prophecy that told Egg that TPTWP would come from his line so you can't really fault her, its not common knowledge. But AA and TPTWP are dif cultural representations of the same prophecy. There is a youtube video where Martin says something like "Mel has been looking for TPTWP"

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Dany/AA is supposed to also usher in a summer that never ends, which sounds good in theory, except that an unending summer would cause the world to be just as off-kilter as it is now. It doesn't "solve" anything. Winter is just as necessary as summer.

Completely agree. It makes even less sense with Jon, being from house Stark (not saying Jon can't be AA, because if AA is one person I'd say Jon's the best candidate. but still, something to think about).

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..."Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings."...

There might be some support for the idea that this is genuine part of a prophecy in the fact that a King and his son both died at Summerhall (presuming that they were trying to create a dragon).

But as has been said above in the spirit of Dunk & Egg a loose interpretation is more likely to be correct than a literal one.

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The difference with the D&E stories is that there weren't actually any living breathing dragons alive in the world at the time, so a dragon in a dream is always going to be symbolic.

In the main story there are real dragons so I think it is very possible that there could be prophecies about them. Like, at some point Dany is going to meet some of the other main characters (maybe Bran but probably Jon) and if he has a prophetic dream that featured a black dragon before meeting her he might be dreaming about Dany (symbolically represented by a dragon) or he might be dreaming about Drogon (an actual black dragon).

The 'wake dragons out of stones' thing I do think is actually a prophecy, and I think Dany fulfilled it, it seems unlikely anybody else is going to also succeed in waking dragons from stone. That doesn't mean it has to be part of the AA prophecy, Mel might just be conflating the two. We don't really know much about the prophecy (other than it is supposedly written about in the 'Red book of Asshai'). Is it one quite cohesive prophecy written by one prophet or is it a whole jumble of prophecies gathered together over centuries because they seem to be about the same event?

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I am firm believer that Jon and Dany will unite as the representatives of Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) must as Bran the Builder and Azor Ahai occupied similar roles in the Age of Heros. I think GRRM is making Dany too important, with the dragon and all, to not make her one of the final protagonists.

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I am firm believer that Jon and Dany will unite as the representatives of Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) must as Bran the Builder and Azor Ahai occupied similar roles in the Age of Heros.

Jon is not just ice. He's both. If anything, Bran is Ice, Dany is Fire and Jon's the balance.

I think GRRM is making Dany too important, with the dragon and all, to not make her one of the final protagonists.

Or one of the final antagonists?

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"Robert was a true king? " By blood no, he was not a Targaryan, nor all the Targ were dead... he took the throne for himself! By that day forward his blood became "blood of king" his bastard's blood had some magical powers that was supposed to be unique to king's blood (accourdlying with Mel).

Khal Drogo (and every Khal) becomes a "king" by conquering.. I think that when someone becomes king, his blood becomes magical, and his descendents too.. Is the only way to explain...

Every king is originaly a thief they conquer the world, take our freedom away, and asks us to reconginize them... there after all his descedents are magicaly Kings.

Yeah, we opted out of that shit in 1776.

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The difference with the D&E stories is that there weren't actually any living breathing dragons alive in the world at the time, so a dragon in a dream is always going to be symbolic.

In the main story there are real dragons so I think it is very possible that there could be prophecies about them.

But that's why I think the real dragons are ultimately red herrings where the prophecy is concerned. Most readers see that someone hatched dragons and they immediately think of that as being the fulfillment of the prophecy, perhaps never knowing or never realizing that it can have and has had a different, more symbolic meaning.

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Awesome thread.

I'm going to diverge a little from the father/son discussion to go back to tze's alternate definition of Summer.

In Game of Thrones, Ned and Arya are in King's Landing having a little heart to heart where they discuss Bran's future. Ned lists some things that a cripple could still do, and among them is building things like Bran the Builder. We know how GRRM loves foreshadowing stuff so let's hold on to this thought.

Bran the Builder is essential to Stark history, being founder of the house and builder of Winterfell, and probably initiator of the secret of the crypts. He also began the building of the wall, inbuing it with magic, which means he also played a critical role in whatever went down with the Long Winter/Long Night, first attack of the Others, etc.

Now our Bran has met up with the Children, in a journey that closely resembles what we know about the Last Hero's adventures. Many of us already suspect that the Last Hero was Bran the Builder as well. In any case, it seems that BB had and maybe continues to have a significant influence on what's happening in Westeros regarding the larger relationships between the different groups, human and non-human.

Our Bran is currently learning how to use the weirwoods to transcend time and space. There's a good chance that he's going to see much farther into the past than he has currenly, and possibly even influence the past somehow. Once again, many of us, myself included, think he sent the direwolves. Bran's wolf is called Summer and in some way, his personal journey has something to do with saving "summer" or bringing it back, which at least superficially links him to the "summer that never ends" portion of the AA prophesy.

What if Bran, who is learning how to reach through time, is actually BB. It seems part of Bran's role may well be rebuilding after the fallout from whatever is going to happen between ice and fire. I'm not sure whether he has to be BB in a new body, as in BB reborn...the important part is that he may be BB's consciousness transcending time, beginning and ending and basically cycling the history of Westeros and of the Starks, through the power of the weirwoods. In this way, he provides a certain continuity, and acts as the "summer that never ends," aka the keystone that holds this entire cycle together. Martin gave a shout out to Robert Jordan with his Maester Rigney, who believes that time is a wheel, infinitely recurring. If such an element is present in ASOIAF, I can see Bran being the wheel turner, and the keystone who holds it all together, with his consciousness being in continuity with BB.

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But that's why I think the real dragons are ultimately red herrings where the prophecy is concerned. Most readers see that someone hatched dragons and they immediately think of that as being the fulfillment of the prophecy, perhaps never knowing or never realizing that it can have and has had a different, more symbolic meaning.

To be honest, it did not occur to me at first that Dany could be AAR/tPWWP, for two reasons:

1) Both figures (AAR and the PWWP) are specifically referred to as being male, which Dany is not.

2) AAR is supposed to forge the sword Lightbringer. However, Dany has so far never forged such a sword, nor has she developed into the kind of person who could wield a sword effectively.

So basically, due to these two factors my mind basically skipped over Dany when considering who could be AAR. Sure, she had her dragons, but at the time I think I was assuming whoever AAR turned out to be, he would also hatch dragons to rival Dany's. I didn't seriously start to consider her as an AAR candidate until I read AFFC (where Aemon says that "prince who was promised" could actually be female) and also realized that the supposed sword Lightbringer could actually be a metaphor for the dragons themselves. That was when the whole thing "clicked" for me, and ever since then I've been leaning toward Dany being AAR/tPWWP.

I'd be curious to hear if this was the same for other posters, or if I'm simply the odd man out on this one.

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I thought it was Dany all along. To be fair, I haven't been able to get my hands on the Dunk & Egg stories yet, and I didn't pay much attention to prophecies and dreams ( :bang: ) on my first read. Came here, knew what to look for on my reread, still leaned towards Dany. However, I think Apple Martini has a very good point. When Aemon said it was Dany, at first I was like "Confirmed! Aemon knows everything!", but then I guess my bullshit detector went off a bit, especially when it became clear that Dany wasn't going to be moving her arse over to Westeros anytime soon, despite what the red priests were saying.

Might be a moot point, but did anyone notice that, in AFFC, Aemon said that Rhaegar thought the 'bleeding star' had to be a comet? What if it isn't a comet?

I also love the theory about the prophecy already being fulfilled, truly brilliant. Why can't I ever pick up on things like that? :P

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