Less examined bits of the AA prophecy

[darrylzero]

The idea that Jon is the dragon that must be woken is pretty inspired. I guess Aerys and Aegon died to make Jon heir, maybe, but what if two kings need to die to wake him now because of the events of Dance?

That pretty much puts to bed any notion of an actual stone dragon, for me, which I guess means poor "Aegon" is going to get greyscale. Or would that be double-dipping? Can he be the mummer's dragon and the stone dragon? Hmmm...

Anyway, after Dance, I was feeling like Mel was more genuine than I gave her credit for, but this is clearly a wrinkle in that narrative. She knew damn well she wasn't killing a king in that cage, so what's with all the prophetic talk?

[Rose of Winterfell]

I think the reason people assume that the prophecy refers to literal dragons is because of the way it predicts that AA will hatch a dragon out of stone: if AA already is the dragon(s) then what is being hatched/created?

I'd just like to say that I'm not in the Dany is AA camp either. I firmly believe Jon is AA (and a targ), just not sure where the dragons out of stone bit comes in :)

[EgoistMusketeer]

I'd just like to say that I'm not in the Dany is AA camp either. I firmly believe Jon is AA (and a targ), just not sure where the dragons out of stone bit comes in :)

Its Stannis because he raised his banners at Dragonstone :D nah jk

[Buried Treasure]

But that's why I think the real dragons are ultimately red herrings where the prophecy is concerned. Most readers see that someone hatched dragons and they immediately think of that as being the fulfillment of the prophecy, perhaps never knowing or never realizing that it can have and has had a different, more symbolic meaning.

I'm with 'most readers' on this one :) , I think in this case the fulfillment of the prophecy is actual firebreathing dragons. In a story with less scope this prophecy would have been introduced in book one, fulfilled by Dany at the end of the book and would never have been brought up again - but because of the size of the world George has created Mel is still trying to interpret that same prophecy four books later.

Which Targaryens need waking from stone anyway? Unless Aegon is actually Aegon and he catches greyscale from Jon C and has to be cured by AA....

[Dacie]

What does anyone think about the theories that it truly was Rhaegar?

Born amongst smoke and salt-born on the day of the Tragedy of Summerhall. Smoke-fire Salt-tears.

First the father, then the son-Aegon V and his son and heir Prince Duncan the Small.

This part gets really kinda crackpot, and Apple Martini I borrowed from your idea that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, and this assumes R+L=J.

Rhaegar's Nissa Nissa could be Lyanna. Lyanna dies giving birth to Rhaegar's child. Together they made Jon Snow, who would not be Azor Ahai, but actually Lightbringer.

[Corm]

"all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn."

To me this oozes of misinterpreted prophecy, something that I believe to be right up GRRM's street.

I think most people agree that we will at some stage see Dany and/or dragons fighting the Others and their minions. If we assume for a moment that Dany is AA (though I don't believe she is) we must draw the comparisons that are linked to her and the original AA. It was said that he "fought the darkness" which many people think refers to the Long Night and the Others.

So, taking that into account it seems possible, even likely, to me that this part of the prophecy wasn't originally intended to serve as solace and hope for the Other fodder that fought for AA but instead was meant as a warning: those who fight in AA's cause and die will be "reborn" as wights.

GRRM has a fondness for unreliable word-of-mouth and I could see this being an example of it.

That's my theory anyway

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Another thing — if the prophecy is fulfilled, will all of the red priests get like a memo or something? "Hey everyone, so and so fits the bill, you can stop talking about it now." If it had already been fulfilled, who would know? What if there's disagreement about who it is?

Why, they'd have to invent computers and the Internet, start up a forum and have never ending discussions!

I get the feeling that the series will either never give a definite answer, or that the answer will be presented in such a way that only the readers and a few of the characters will know. Also, since it's such an old prophecy it must have been reinterpreted and reworded a million times, and probably moulded to fit the particular culture of wherever it was currently told***. If so, maybe the "real" identity of AA will be a moot point, and the prophecy's importance will be more of: Who gets pointed out by whom when and for what reason?

*** If you're interested in this kind of stuff, and haven't read this thread also started by Apple Martini yet, do so.

ETA: fixed link...

[Lady of Long Lake]

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings."

Couldn't this also be Aerys and Viserys? I know they were many years apart but the father died before the son and the son was widely known as the "Beggar King". Was the red comet sighted before Visery's death?

[darrylzero]

What does anyone think about the theories that it truly was Rhaegar?

Born amongst smoke and salt-born on the day of the Tragedy of Summerhall. Smoke-fire Salt-tears.

First the father, then the son-Aegon V and his son and heir Prince Duncan the Small.

This part gets really kinda crackpot, and Apple Martini I borrowed from your idea that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, and this assumes R+L=J.

Rhaegar's Nissa Nissa could be Lyanna. Lyanna dies giving birth to Rhaegar's child. Together they made Jon Snow, who would not be Azor Ahai, but actually Lightbringer.

Sign me up right now. Rhaegar was right from the beginning, before he started worrying about his boy Aegon how many heads dragons have.

Seriously, this does feel a little crackpot, but at the same time it's the first invocation of Nissa Nissa that doesn't feel totally forced to me. Lyanna! If this is true, it would indicate to me that there is a prophecy out there that was explaining what it really meant to be the PtwP, but Rhaegar misinterpreted it.

Right? Because he read up on prophecies that told him he was the PtwP (two kings must die, one before the other, Summerhall), but then something changed, and he began to believe his son was the key. Fascinating. Because, in a way, he was right. Or I guess Jon could still be the PtwP if that's not necessarily the same thing as Azor Ahai reborn.

What would that prophecy say? And If Rhaegar knew -- if he had interpreted it correctly -- would he have gone forward with the plan? Or is it dependent on his misinterpretation? How much did he love Lyanna?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Which Targaryens need waking from stone anyway? Unless Aegon is actually Aegon and he catches greyscale from Jon C and has to be cured by AA....

We don't know what going to happen to John's mostly dead body yet. Perhaps he'll be put in the Winterfell crypt -- I know, unlikely bordering on the impossible -- or kept in some other stone holding place until he "wakes" from his coma/death? I've also seen the theory that Bloodraven, who Bran found "dreaming in his chair," was the awakened dragon. But I think the "stone" is as metaphorical as the dragon.

[Serie]

What does anyone think about the theories that it truly was Rhaegar?

Born amongst smoke and salt-born on the day of the Tragedy of Summerhall. Smoke-fire Salt-tears.

First the father, then the son-Aegon V and his son and heir Prince Duncan the Small.

This part gets really kinda crackpot, and Apple Martini I borrowed from your idea that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, and this assumes R+L=J.

Rhaegar's Nissa Nissa could be Lyanna. Lyanna dies giving birth to Rhaegar's child. Together they made Jon Snow, who would not be Azor Ahai, but actually Lightbringer.

oh dear....

I just have to think of this more.... I think my heartbeat stopped for a moment....

[Eyron]

Good good stuff in this thread!

Something to keep in mind, or at least I think so :P The word dragon seems to be interchangeable with prince or princess in the Valyrian language in which the prophecy of "the Prince that was promised" seems to have been written down. So in every instance the word dragon is used, we could swap it for prince/-ess or heir. If so, the Azor Ahai Reborn could wake Princes from stone. Or a Prince from stone. Maybe.

Old Weirwoods also turn into stone, but maybe they awake when blood is spilled on their roots?

Where is Azor Ahai buried anyway? Under a weirwood?

And what do the white walkers want with blood from babies, reeking of life? According to Old Nan they drink it. Maybe are not drinking it (I'd say probably not) but they are trying to awaken something too?

Eh, I just bring questions, sorry!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What does anyone think about the theories that it truly was Rhaegar?

Born amongst smoke and salt-born on the day of the Tragedy of Summerhall. Smoke-fire Salt-tears.

First the father, then the son-Aegon V and his son and heir Prince Duncan the Small.

This part gets really kinda crackpot, and Apple Martini I borrowed from your idea that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, and this assumes R+L=J.

Rhaegar's Nissa Nissa could be Lyanna. Lyanna dies giving birth to Rhaegar's child. Together they made Jon Snow, who would not be Azor Ahai, but actually Lightbringer.

It's crazy. I like it. :drool:

[Eyron]

Btw, this "king and his son, both die kings"-business makes me very glad Roberts first born son and daughter are flying under the radar.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

Death bending the knee...not 'death' itself, but 'death' as embodied by the Others, the Great Other, as in opposition to R'hllor.

As to the 2 kings...

Rhaegar was not king when he died, as Aerys was still alive...Other wise Rhaegar and Jon (who will 'die' at least temporarily) would fit very well.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

Oh yeah, and 'waking the dragon'.....dragon=Targarayen? What if these 2 king's deaths mean that Jon learns the truth of his heritage and there by wakes the 'dragon'.

[tze]

The difference with the D&E stories is that there weren't actually any living breathing dragons alive in the world at the time, so a dragon in a dream is always going to be symbolic.

Here's something I've never fully understood. The AA reborn prophecy was supposedly given thousands of years ago, back when dragons still roamed the earth. The idea of "waking dragons from stone" and all the other "identifying factors" of this prophecy actually originated in a time when dragons were plentiful---supposedly thousands of years before the Doom. But while the mere idea of a dragon "now" sounds inherently miraculous, simply because dragons were extinct for a century and a half, the idea couldn't, by its very nature, have had the same "miraculous" connotations in the time period it was supposedly written down. "OMG, someone will wake a dragon from stone!" "Yeah, I woke my dragon this morning as he was sunning himself on my stone terrace. Like I do every day. So what?" Yet this prophecy was handed down for thousands of years. Long before the dragons died out, while Valyria was spending centuries and millennia in its heyday, someone still thought this prophecy was important enough to preserve.

Aemon makes a great fuss over the dragons, declaring that the mere existence of living dragons inherently proves Dany is AA reborn. But he (and Mel and Benerro) fixates on living, fire-breathing dragons as if those creatures' existence were the be-all, end-all of the prophecy, yet the original holders of the prophecy, who lived when dragons were plentiful, probably wouldn't have associated the mere thought of a dragon being hatched with messianic connotations, because dragons hatched rather more frequently back then. (Yes, the issue of a person hatching dragon's eggs probably wasn't quite as frequent, but the end result---a baby dragon---was.)

So I guess my general point is: why did people think this prophecy was so important thousands of years ago, when dragons were in their heyday? It's just always struck me as weird to have a prophecy that's all about the rebirth of dragons derive from, and be preserved within, a time when dragons were not just alive, but thriving. If it had come about after the Doom, or after the dragons died out completely, that would make sense. But why bother with it thousands of years before the dragons die in the first place? It seems like a weird context.

The 'wake dragons out of stones' thing I do think is actually a prophecy, and I think Dany fulfilled it, it seems unlikely anybody else is going to also succeed in waking dragons from stone.

Hey, Quentyn woke some dragons from stone in the chapter "The Dragontamer". I doubt he was meant to be AA reborn. :)

We've very explicitly been shown a "dragon" sleeping in a place of stone: Bloodraven, whose sigil is a white dragon. The power of the greenseers---power associated with the Children---is the only type of power we've actually seen have an effect on the Others' powers (the wights are scattered by Bloodraven's ravens, Bloodraven's cave is warded against the wights). If AA reborn has something to do with a conflict with the Others (and I'm the first to admit that that could very well not be the case), but if it is the case, a fire-breathing dragon might not be nearly as necessary as Brynden "The Sleeping Dragon" Rivers.

Moreover, in ACOK Melisandre talks about Azor Ahai drawing a sword from a fire while the star bleeds and "the cold breath of darkess" is on the world, (etc., etc.), but in ASOS she talks about Azor Ahai waking dragons from stone while the star bleeds and the darkness gathers (etc., etc.)."Waking dragons from stone" sounds like very specific wording. But why does the idea of a sword being drawn from a fire come into this prophecy in the first place? Whatever Mel read led her to believe that there will be both a physical sword and physical dragons---but without knowing exactly what she read, we can't say which elements she's believing in are "accurate" and which elements are misinterpretations. Most of the AA-related speculation I've seen has centered on the idea that the latter is basically a metaphor for the former---that it's the dragons that matter, not any actual sword. But I wonder: if AA reborn does end up fighting the Others, the exact opposite interpretation might actually come to pass: "waking dragons from stone" could be a metaphor for a person "drawing from the fire a burning sword", not the other way around.

By that I mean: the only substance we know 100% has an effect on the Others is obsidian, aka dragonglass, a stone that is made in the fires of the earth. If made into the form of a sword, it kills the Others (or at least makes them melt) in combat. So rather than say the prophecy is geared toward describing actual dragons, and the "sword" thing is just another dragon reference, perhaps instead the prophecy is geared toward describing a warrior who's wielding a weapon that destroys the Others: dragonglass, weapons that are "drawn from the fire" of the earth, weapons whose forging could be described as "waking dragons from stone" because dragonglass is a type of stone and is found in the same places where dragons once were found. Perhaps the AA reborn prophecy never actually referred to the "rebirth" of dragonkind at all? Perhaps the whole point is that AA will be known because he's fighting with dragonglass (he's fighting the Others)---hell, maybe the point is that everyone who fights the Others is Azor Ahai reborn? (It would fit with GRRM's "this isn't the story of a single person, but of everybody" theme.)

While characters like Aemon, Benerro, and Melisandre were obsessed with literal dragons, and interpreted what they read in the assumption that the rebirth of dragons was the ultimate purpose of everything, the prophecy was actually given, and for thousands of years was perpetuated, in a context which wouldn't necessarily have seen the importance of "waking" an actual dragon because dragons were already being "woken" daily. And if the whole "wake dragons from stone" part entered the prophecy as a shorthand for obsidian, it could be relevant that the only group that's ever been described as using weapons of dragonglass---the Children of the Forest---does not appear to have lived in Essos. So this prophecy would have arisen in an Essosi culture that had no history of using dragonglass for weapons (unlike in Westeros), which could be why it was originally viewed as valuable; dragons were frequently used as weapons in Essos, but obsidian, from what I can tell, was not. So the weapon described (even if they didn't technically identify it as dragonglass) would have been recognized, at the very least, as something that wasn't "ordinarily" being used in combat (unlike, say, fire-breathing dragons).

I don't know if we'll ever find out which parts of the AA prophecy are orginal, but like much messianic mythology in our own world, it seems like the AA legend has grown with the retelling. The parts of Benerro's sermon that you recounted, Martini, sound like recent embellishments or appeals to heightened messianic fervor on the part of the Red Priests. Promises like the redemption of a fallen world, resurrection of the faithful, death "bending the knee," and similar rewards for the faithful are very typical of messianic messages in times of great desperation.

The longer a society goes from the introduction of a messianic story or idea to its peak of popularity, the more gets grafted onto the story, especially when we're talking about ways of recognizing the promised figure and the stakes of the conflict. Each generation interprets the story in light of its own struggles and makes additions to help keep the story meaningful for its members. I suspect that much of what Benerro is preaching is not strictly canon, but his own interpretation of a very old story with few certain details. Whether we can rely on Benerro's promises and predictions is a big question, and while I find his preaching interesting, red flags went up the moment that I read it in Dance.

The same issues arise with pretty much everything we "know" about this prophecy, even (especially) the parts that come from Melisandre. I think she's clearly not reciting what she read verbatim, and while Benerro probably isn't either, he presumably has more ready access to his sources than Mel, who never mentions bringing any AA reborn-based written materials with her to Westeros. But we don't know what any of those sources are, which presumably is intentional.

Are Mel and Benerro reading the same books? Is one person's source older than the other person's source? Is the original source still in existence at all? We don't know. Melisandre makes mention of things (two kings to wake the dragon) that Benerro never mentions. Benerro makes mention of things (all those who die in his service will be reborn) that Melisandre doesn't mention. Melisandre spent time in Asshai, and there's no indication Benerro did so, so there could be elements found in books in Asshai that Benerro doesn't have access to. However, Benerro is a High Priest of R'hllor, and presumably has access to resources that "lesser" priests, or even that non-Volantene priests, simply don't have. (We don't yet know what "official" status Melisandre holds in the herarchy of the church of R'hllor, but given her isolation in Westeros, coupled with the fact that nobody in Essos seems to mention her, I think it's likely that she's not nearly as highly-placed as she'd like others to believe.)

[Eyron]

Awesome thread.

I'm going to diverge a little from the father/son discussion to go back to tze's alternate definition of Summer.

In Game of Thrones, Ned and Arya are in King's Landing having a little heart to heart where they discuss Bran's future. Ned lists some things that a cripple could still do, and among them is building things like Bran the Builder. We know how GRRM loves foreshadowing stuff so let's hold on to this thought.

Bran the Builder is essential to Stark history, being founder of the house and builder of Winterfell, and probably initiator of the secret of the crypts. He also began the building of the wall, inbuing it with magic, which means he also played a critical role in whatever went down with the Long Winter/Long Night, first attack of the Others, etc.

Now our Bran has met up with the Children, in a journey that closely resembles what we know about the Last Hero's adventures. Many of us already suspect that the Last Hero was Bran the Builder as well. In any case, it seems that BB had and maybe continues to have a significant influence on what's happening in Westeros regarding the larger relationships between the different groups, human and non-human.

Our Bran is currently learning how to use the weirwoods to transcend time and space. There's a good chance that he's going to see much farther into the past than he has currenly, and possibly even influence the past somehow. Once again, many of us, myself included, think he sent the direwolves. Bran's wolf is called Summer and in some way, his personal journey has something to do with saving "summer" or bringing it back, which at least superficially links him to the "summer that never ends" portion of the AA prophesy.

What if Bran, who is learning how to reach through time, is actually BB. It seems part of Bran's role may well be rebuilding after the fallout from whatever is going to happen between ice and fire. I'm not sure whether he has to be BB in a new body, as in BB reborn...the important part is that he may be BB's consciousness transcending time, beginning and ending and basically cycling the history of Westeros and of the Starks, through the power of the weirwoods. In this way, he provides a certain continuity, and acts as the "summer that never ends," aka the keystone that holds this entire cycle together. Martin gave a shout out to Robert Jordan with his Maester Rigney, who believes that time is a wheel, infinitely recurring. If such an element is present in ASOIAF, I can see Bran being the wheel turner, and the keystone who holds it all together, with his consciousness being in continuity with BB.

*BUMP*

In case anyone missed it...

This is really good, and it fits nicely into the theories we discussed earlier in another thread, or rather it connects more dots into the same theory. A summer that never ends and the hinges of the world.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tze's post kind of freaked me out in a good way. Namely, if dragons were prevalent when the prophecy was originally written, why would it be a big deal to "wake" one?

[Hamsa]

Apple Martini you rock my socks for starting this thread :)

What does anyone think about the theories that it truly was Rhaegar?

Born amongst smoke and salt-born on the day of the Tragedy of Summerhall. Smoke-fire Salt-tears.

First the father, then the son-Aegon V and his son and heir Prince Duncan the Small.

This part gets really kinda crackpot, and Apple Martini I borrowed from your idea that Lightbringer is the Night's Watch, and this assumes R+L=J.

Rhaegar's Nissa Nissa could be Lyanna. Lyanna dies giving birth to Rhaegar's child. Together they made Jon Snow, who would not be Azor Ahai, but actually Lightbringer.

I'm totally on board about Rhaegar being AA because it seriously fits so well with everything. I always liked the idea of Lyanna being Rhaegar's Nissa Nissa and Rhaegar using her as the final piece to complete the prophecy in his eyes. Who doesn't love a good tragedy? I also agree with Revenge of the Starks that Bran the Builder was the Last Hero (and has a connection to/ repeats history with our Bran).

My own crackpot theory to connect the circle, between the original AA and the "new" one is that I've believed Nissa Nissa to be a coTF that BB found on his quest to track down the cotf, and he was able to use her inherit "magical" ability to not necessarily defeat the Others but to return balance to the world.

GiveMeSomeSnow's idea that JON = Lightbringer is AMAZING. Our Bran, who is also in contact with the cotf like BB, would be able to assist our new Lightbringer (Jon-love-him-to-death-Snow), to once again bring forth an "endless summer" (endless summer = balance).

Edit: Forgot to mention that Lyanna = Nissa Nissa because I think the Starks are descended from the cotf since Bran the builder/ the Last Hero + Nissa Nissa = continuation of the Stark lineage.