Just how powerful do you think the Arryns are in terms of men?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

By then the Vale will be the undisputed powerhouse in Westeros, with their full army ready for action.

And Sansa is planning to marry the Vale's heir. B)

[Euphail]

snip

Ahh, my thanks for the correction. Seems I'm forgetful!

[the Scorpion Knight]

And Sansa is planning to marry the Vale's heir. B)

LF intends. me thinks sansa has other plans

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

LF intends. me thinks sansa has other plans

Yes, perhaps. I actually think she'll marry Harry anyway, but she won't be Littlefinger's puppet in doing so.

[James Arryn]

I have always said the Vale s increasingly looking like the X-Factor.

High numbers, their knights are held in very his esteem, exceptional geo-strategic position, self-sustaining, easily defended base and exceptional offensive capacity, no real known weaknesses...sitting in a pretty damned nice position.

[The Frosted King]

I wouldn't bat an eye at the Vale being able to raise a host of 40-45k, but i would at the north.

Even in ADWD, we see the scrapings of the barrel of the North. And it barely passes 10k, and thats including the Freys 2k.

Even if Martin said it(no i'm not trying to rebuff the guy who wrote the books), what we've seen from the books thus far would make it outlandish for another 30k men to just be waiting around to be called to arms.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I wouldn't bat an eye at the Vale being able to raise a host of 40-45k, but i would at the north.

Even in ADWD, we see the scrapings of the barrel of the North. And it barely passes 10k, and thats including the Freys 2k.

Even if Martin said it(no i'm not trying to rebuff the guy who wrote the books), what we've seen from the books thus far would make it outlandish for another 30k men to just be waiting around to be called to arms.

scrappings? the north will beginn to show his true monsters (the clans the skagosi, the crannogmen)

[Free Northman]

I wouldn't bat an eye at the Vale being able to raise a host of 40-45k, but i would at the north.

Even in ADWD, we see the scrapings of the barrel of the North. And it barely passes 10k, and thats including the Freys 2k.

Even if Martin said it(no i'm not trying to rebuff the guy who wrote the books), what we've seen from the books thus far would make it outlandish for another 30k men to just be waiting around to be called to arms.

Yet that is the reality.

The North has the lowest population DENSITY in the Seven Kingdoms. Not the lowest POPULATION.

[The Frosted King]

The Clans, skagosi and Crannogmen all work due to their surroundings.

Can't actually speak about the Skagosi, they've never been seen.

But the clans would likely be decimated in an open fielding campaign.

They're below par in weapons and armor for the most part.

The crannogmen are likely worst off, since they're known to be smaller men, and poor to boot.

Take them below the neck, and they become little more than wildlings.

[Free Northman]

The Vale - the part that is not impassable mountains - is smaller than the lands just ruled by Wyman Manderly.

And it is not that far south of White Harbor in any case.

I find it highly unlikely that the Vale can match the North's population.

[Mr. E]

The crannogmen are likely worst off, since they're known to be smaller men, and poor to boot.

Take them below the neck, and they become little more than wildlings.

While I would agree that the crannogmen probably work best in their own densely wooded, swampy environment as sneaky, quick guerilla fighters, I don't know if their unique skills wouldn't translate to the south. After all, Howland Reed was a crannogman and Ned Stark trusted him so much he took him to the TOJ--and Reed saved Ned from death at the hands of Arthur Dayne, who was probably the greatest sword in Westeros. Needless to say, I think the crannogmen could hold their own as long as they weren't forced to conform to conventional tactics of warfare.

[the Scorpion Knight]

and the fun part is : the defenfensive position of the vale is also its biggest trouble

[Euphail]

While I would agree that the crannogmen probably work best in their own densely wooded, swampy environment as sneaky, quick guerilla fighters, I don't know if their unique skills wouldn't translate to the south. After all, Howland Reed was a crannogman and Ned Stark trusted him so much he took him to the TOJ--and Reed saved Ned from death at the hands of Arthur Dayne, who was probably the greatest sword in Westeros. Needless to say, I think the crannogmen could hold their own as long as they weren't forced to conform to conventional tactics of warfare.

I'm not convinced this means he killed Dayne sword to sword, or that he killed him at all. I think the word choice in that passage was pointed. Your point is well taken though, and I agree.

[Darth Rivers]

The Starks could probably field a 35-45K army if they were forced to conscript all able men

...Seriously? All able men? You do realize that the North is about the size of the European part of Russia? Look, England had 1 million inhabitants (1086) and later, 5-7 million in the 13th century. Since the North is just so many times bigger than England, I honestly doubt it could have less than a million population. My personal guess would be somewhere in the vicinity of 5-10 million - and that's already very sparsely populated.

So population isn't really limiting the size of armies. What's limiting the size of armies is the fact that they need to be fed and resupplied, soldiers cause disorder wherever they go, armies need to be commanded and managed, many troops come from narrow pools of recruits (i.e. knights, freeholders), the mercenaries need to be paid, and, most importantly, no lord will ever send his tenants away en masse, since someone has to work the land.

Medieval armies were not small either. Ancient sources just exaggerate the sizes of armies. Even today you rarely see more than a few thousand men in one place. Theoretically, there could be a couple hundred thousand troops in the field. It's just that such an army would kill itself inside out, and collapse when faced with the real world of logistics.

P.S. there was no levee en masse in the medieval era, even the infantry was usually richer freeholders, town-militias and mercenaries rather than peasant conscripts.

[Free Northman]

...Seriously? All able men? You do realize that the North is about the size of the European part of Russia? Look, England had 1 million inhabitants (1086) and later, 5-7 million in the 13th century. Since the North is just so many times bigger than England, I honestly doubt it could have less than a million population. My personal guess would be somewhere in the vicinity of 5-10 million - and that's already very sparsely populated.

So population isn't really limiting the size of armies. What's limiting the size of armies is the fact that they need to be fed and resupplied, soldiers cause disorder wherever they go, armies need to be commanded and managed, many troops come from narrow pools of recruits (i.e. knights, freeholders), the mercenaries need to be paid, and, most importantly, no lord will ever send his tenants away en masse, since someone has to work the land.

Medieval armies were not small either. Ancient sources just exaggerate the sizes of armies. Even today you rarely see more than a few thousand men in one place. Theoretically, there could be a couple hundred thousand troops in the field. It's just that such an army would kill itself inside out, and collapse when faced with the real world of logistics.

P.S. there was no levee en masse in the medieval era, even the infantry was usually richer freeholders, town-militias and mercenaries rather than peasant conscripts.

Absolutely correct. I did not want to get into the discussion of total population numbers here, but the truth is exactly as you state. It is not the lack of living, able bodied men that constrains the North.

There aren't just 18,000 adult, able bodied men in the North. Nor are there even just 180,000 able bodied men in the North.

There are most likely 1.8 million able bodied men in the North, out of a total population of around 6 million or so.

1.2 million square miles x 5 people per square mile gives you around 6 million. For those who dispute such a number, medieval England had a population density of 40 people per square mile, and medieval Scotland 20 people per square mile.

5 people per square mile would be only 1 quarter the population density of Scotland. It is simply the incredible vastness of the North that brings the total population number so high.

So to come back to the armies - there is never a full conscription of able bodied men. Despite medieval Englands 2 million people, the largest English armies of the time numbered maybe 15000 men or so.

In the North, the ratio of army to population size would be even lower, given the vastness of the territory and the harshness of the climate.

So a 6 million population estimate is probably very realistic for the North.

For the Vale, I'd go around 3 or 4 million, but due to the smaller area, and higher population density, they can probably mobilize a larger portion of the population for war than the North can - exactly as Martin stated.

Resulting in actual army sizes for the North and the Vale that are more or less equal.

[Free Northman]

Another example.

Victarrion took the entire Iron Fleet when he invaded the North. That's 100 ships. If each ship has 100 men, that's 10,000 men.

He could spread those 10,000 men out so that each single man occuppied and guarded a square mile of territory, and there would still be 1.19 million square miles of Northern territory that had never come into contact with an Ironborn raider.

The fact is, the vast majority of the people of the North have only heard of this War of the Five Kings and even the invasion of the Ironborn, via rumour.

That is how isolated and remote most of the northern villages and holdfasts are.

[The Last Direwolf]

The Martell's have 50,000 spears ready to give Dany (according to Quentyn) and I assume they could rally more if it was needed. So that puts them above the Starks??

Doran has already said that the notion that Dorne can field 50,000 is just a myth started to stop invaders and intimidate Aegon the Conqueror. It's true strength is somewhere in the region of 30K I believe.

[Free Northman]

Doran has already said that the notion that Dorne can field 50,000 is just a myth started to stop invaders and intimidate Aegon the Conqueror. It's true strength is somewhere in the region of 30K I believe.

Yes, and we know they are the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms, so whatever their number, all the others must be higher - Ironborn excluded of course.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

In my way of thinking, i'd wager they're more powerful than the Martells, Stormlords and Northmen.

They hold exquisitely defensive lands, have a major city in Gulltown and the lands are famously fertile.

Likely hold similar numbers to the Riverlords, but clans of the mountain make it perilous living at times.

Does George ever clarify where they fall exactly?

Not powerful at all. The Lord Protector and the knights of the Vale of Baelish are pretty strong, though unblooded. Their ability to project power is unknown as of yet. They don't seem to have a fleet. But they have a lot of heavy horse. Estimated fighting strength is 30,000 http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/05/19-war-of-five-kings-arryns/index.html well equipped, heavily armed and armored. The Dornish are said to have 50,000 spears. But they wear light armor, ride smaller horses.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Another example.

Victarrion took the entire Iron Fleet when he invaded the North. That's 100 ships. If each ship has 100 men, that's 10,000 men.

He could spread those 10,000 men out so that each single man occuppied and guarded a square mile of territory, and there would still be 1.19 million square miles of Northern territory that had never come into contact with an Ironborn raider.

The fact is, the vast majority of the people of the North have only heard of this War of the Five Kings and even the invasion of the Ironborn, via rumour.

That is how isolated and remote most of the northern villages and holdfasts are.

Victarion was only tasked with holding moat cailin. The army size and population numbers have never made sense to me. I didn't really make sense that Robb only fielded 18,000 north men to engage 2-3 lannister armies while Ser Rodrick is so unable to find men to oppose Ramsay and the Iron Born. All while crops are going unharvested in the fields due to lack of man power.

Also, I've noticed that population of the North seems to have declined significantly. With the gift, sea dragon point and the stony shore all having been depopulated.