What happens when Arya finds out her imposter is married to Ramsay?

[kephv]

I don't know is it? Can they tell each other apart?

Yes. Even Arya knows who's who at the temple, unless they're all swapping each others faces everyday. Even so, the Kinldy Man, since he seems to be the head guy there, surely knows who everyone is.

Wrong. That's not what they're telling her.

Yes, she's learning how to lie. I never said she wasn't. That doesn't negate the other stuff I mentioned, though, else any great liar in the world would be able to walk in there and go from novice to master in a heartbeat.

And everything has to do with changing her face.

That was more to do with her lying and helping her to change her habits, like biting her lip. The real face changing stuff didn't come until later.

so....

Yeah? And?

Its like saying do you really the US government would spend millions of dollars training Navy SEALS and then just let them retire and not murder them? But they know all sorts of secrets!

The Navy Seals aren't a secret cult of murders. The comparison doesn't apply.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yes. Even Arya knows who's who at the temple

well there are only two priests there. and one of them is tiny.

, unless they're all swapping each others faces everyday

As for the others who come and go who says they're not.

The waif and kindly man were not the only servants of the Many-Faced God. From time to time others would visit the House of Black and White. The fat fellow had fierce black eyes, a hook nose, and a wide mouth full of yellow teeth. The stern face never smiled; his eyes were pale, his lips full and dark. The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely. Those three came most often, but there were others: the squinter, the lordling, the starved man. One time the fat fellow and the squinter came together. Umma sent Arya to pour for them. “When you are not pouring, you must stand as still as if you had been carved of stone,” the kindly man told her. “Can you do that?”

“Yes.” Before you can learn to move you must learn to be still, Syrio Forel had taught her long ago at King’s Landing, and she had. She had served as Roose Bolton’s cupbearer at Harrenhal, and he would flay you if you spilled his wine.

“Good,” the kindly man said. “It would be best if you were blind and deaf as well. You may hear things, but you must let them pass in one ear and out the other. Do not listen.”

Arya heard much and more that night, but almost all of it was in the tongue of Braavos, and she hardly understood one word in ten. Still as stone, she told herself. The hardest part was struggling not to yawn. Before the night was done, her wits were wandering. Standing there with the flagon in her hands, she dreamed she was a wolf, running free through a moonlit forest with a great pack howling at her heels.

“Are the other men all priests?” she asked the kindly man the next morning. “Were those their real faces?”

“What do you think, child?”

She thought no. “Is Jaqen H’ghar a priest too? Do you know if Jaqen will be coming back to Braavos?”

“Who?” he said, all innocence.

“Jaqen H’ghar. He gave me the iron coin.”

“I know no one by this name, child.”

. Even so, the Kinldy Man, since he seems to be the head guy there

Head guy In charge of Arya, maybe.

surely knows who everyone is.

And what do you mean surely? Also, I see you managed to leave off the part of the labeled "more importantly" No matter I'll ask it again. But more importantly, how would anyone outside of their group know?

In other words. If people had become faceless men and leave the group how would the people of Essos and Westeros become aware of this? Maybe a select few, Bloodraven or Maester Marwyn. But broadly speaking?

Yes, she's learning how to lie. I never said she wasn't. That doesn't negate the other stuff I mentioned, though, else any great liar in the world would be able to walk in there and go from novice to master in a heartbeat.

Maybe they can. But they would have be very great indeed. Perhaps Euron, is one such.

That was more to do with her lying and helping her to change her habits, like biting her lip. The real face changing stuff didn't come until later.

No. That is the real face changing stuff. It does no good to change her face if she still acts way she did before.

Yeah? And?

She seems to know who she is.

The Navy Seals aren't a secret cult of murders. The comparison doesn't apply.

They aren't? What are the names of the men on the team that killed Bin Laden? They aren't a secret group, with special skills that and secret knowledge that kill people?

[Howling Mad]

Simple - she adds him to her list

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

She will kill her.

I think she will too. Considering what Jeyne Poole has been through death may be a mercy.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I think she will too. Considering what Jeyne Poole has been through death may be a mercy.

I'd be funny if Arya put on a the the guise of a horse's face before she killed Farya.

At Winterfell they had called her “Arya Horseface” and she’d thought nothing could be worse, but that was before the orphan boy Lommy Greenhands had named her “Lumpyhead.”

The bride raised her eyes. Brown eyes, shining in the candlelight. “I will be a good wife to him, and t-true. I … I will please him and give him sons. I will be a better wife than the real Arya could have been, he’ll see.” Talk like that will get you killed, or worse. That lesson he had learned as Reek. “You are the real Arya, my lady. Arya of House Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter, heir to Winterfell.” Her name, she had to know her name. “Arya Underfoot.

Your sister used to call you Arya Horseface.” “It was me made up that name. Her face was long and horsey. Mine isn’t. I was pretty.”

Tears spilled from her eyes at last. “I was never beautiful like Sansa, but they all said I was pretty. Does Lord Ramsay think I am pretty?”

[kephv]

well there are only two priests there. and one of them is tiny. As for the others who come and go who says they're not.

I meant the others that come there -- lordling, squinter, etc. And, yeah, I guess they could be switching faces everytime but most likely there are limits to it. A fat man's face probably wouldn't fit Arya too well, the starved man wouldn't fit the fat man, and so on.

And what do you mean surely?

As in, someone's gotta be keeping track of it all. Who was trained, what faces they were given, where they went and on what task. Things like that. They wouldn't be able to operate so successfully without having some system of organization there.

Also, I see you managed to leave off the part of the labeled "more importantly" No matter I'll ask it again. But more importantly, how would anyone outside of their group know?

In other words. If people had become faceless men and leave the group how would the people of Essos and Westeros become aware of this? Maybe a select few, Bloodraven or Maester Marwyn. But broadly speaking?

They wouldn't? How could they? It's the people in the group that matter, though.

Maybe they can. But they would have be very great indeed. Perhaps Euron, is one such.

No, because it's more than just how well they lie. Also, what makes you think Euron?

No. That is the real face changing stuff. It does no good to change her face if she still acts way she did before.

Well, yeah. Originally I meant just the actual face changing. But yes, it's all part of the training to become anyone.

She seems to know who she is.

Who she was anyway. She's only a servant of the temple now. Still, the line isn't so clear cut. What makes a person who they are is part of what GRRM is exploring here with his characters switching names and identities, but that discussion is outside the scope of this thread, so I'll leave it there.

They aren't? What are the names of the men on the team that killed Bin Laden? They aren't a secret group, with special skills that and secret knowledge that kill people?

They're not religious in nature, no. And the SEALS are also an officially sanctioned part of the US navy, and while their members might not be publicly known, they still have families and lives of their own. Somehow I doubt they'd be getting any recruits once their members all started disappearing. The FM are a murderous cult operating independently of the Braavosi. They can kill whomever they want, and are good at making it seem natural too. And in the end, there's no one they have to answer to. Why would they when the person in question is just another no one?

[Morrigan]

She did. Otherwise she wouldn't think "The Hound never flicked an eye at Arya."

Not all the narration is what the POV character thinks. It's often simply what they see, what happens around them. And even if Arya thinks "I'm the only other sister, the Hound knows that", she still doesn't connect everything, she could just think they're making shit up about her. The fact that she does not once think about Ramsay's marriage later in AFFC and ADWD is indication enough to me that she's not really aware that this is going on.

[Dr. Pepper]

Not all the narration is what the POV character thinks. It's often simply what they see, what happens around them. And even if Arya thinks "I'm the only other sister, the Hound knows that", she still doesn't connect everything, she could just think they're making shit up about her. The fact that she does not once think about Ramsay's marriage later in AFFC and ADWD is indication enough to me that she's not really aware that this is going on.

She may not be aware of what all of it means, but she's aware that Sansa's 'sister' was married to Bolton's bastard. I think not reading about her thinking on it any further merely indicates that she didn't care about who the sister could be as she didn't intend to go to Winterfell anyway. They were considering the Vale and later she tried to get to the Wall. She couldn't have done anything about the 'sister' married to Ramsay anyway as it would mean revealing herself.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Not all the narration is what the POV character thinks. It's often simply what they see, what happens around them. And even if Arya thinks "I'm the only other sister, the Hound knows that", she still doesn't connect everything, she could just think they're making shit up about her. The fact that she does not once think about Ramsay's marriage later in AFFC and ADWD is indication enough to me that she's not really aware that this is going on.

to me its an indication that she doesn't care.

[teemo]

Good question. Honestly, what can she do? If I were to guess, she'd probably think about it a ton, but not do anything. I know a lot of people don't believe she's really dedicated to the FM, but I actually think she is.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I meant the others that come there -- lordling, squinter, etc. And, yeah, I guess they could be switching faces everytime but most likely there are limits to it. A fat man's face probably wouldn't fit Arya too well, the starved man wouldn't fit the fat man, and so on.

oh?

“Who?” he said, all innocence.

“Jaqen H’ghar. He gave me the iron coin.”

“I know no one by this name, child.”

“I asked him how he changed his face, and he said it was no harder than taking a new name, if you knew the way.”

“Did he?”

“Will you show me how to change my face?”

“If you wish.” He cupped her chin in his hand and turned her head. “Puff up your cheeks and stick out your tongue.”

Arya puffed up her cheeks and stuck out her tongue.

“There. Your face is changed.”

“That’s not how I meant. Jaqen used magic.”

“All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper glamor.”

“Years?” she said, dismayed.

“If it were easy all men would do it. You must walk before you run. Why use a spell, where mummer’s tricks will serve?”

“I don’t know any mummer’s tricks either.”

“Then practice making faces. Beneath your skin are muscles. Learn to use them. It is your face. Your cheeks, your lips, your ears. Smiles and scowls should not come upon you like sudden squalls. A smile should be a servant, and come only when you call it. Learn to rule your face.”

“Show me how.”

“A girl is greedy.” Jaqen touched one of the dead guards and showed her his bloody fingers. “Here is three and there is four and eight more lie dead below. The debt is paid.”

“The debt is paid,” Arya agreed reluctantly. She felt a little sad. Now she was just a mouse again.

“A god has his due. And now a man must die.” A strange smile touched the lips of Jaqen H’ghar.

“Die?” she said, confused. What did he mean? “But I unsaid the name. You don’t need to die now.”

“I do. My time is done.”

Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Arya’s mouth hung open. “Who are you?” she whispered, too astonished to be afraid. “How did you do that? Was it hard?”

He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth. “No harder than taking a new name, if you know the way.”

“Show me,” she blurted. “I want to do it too.”

“If you would learn, you must come with me.”

Arya grew hesitant. “Where?”

“Far and away, across the narrow sea.”

“I can’t. I have to go home. To Winterfell.”

“Then we must part,” he said, “for I have duties too.” He lifted her hand and pressed a small coin into her palm. “Here.”

“What is it?”

“A coin of great value.”

As in, someone's gotta be keeping track of it all. Who

who? who was trained? No one.

was trained, what faces they were given, where they went and on what task. Things like that. They wouldn't be able to operate so successfully without having some system of organization there.

they would as long the people they assign come back.

They wouldn't? How could they? It's the people in the group that matter, though.

No, because it's more than just how well they lie. Also, what makes you think Euron?

Beside the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. Her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes. “The old gods stir and will not let me sleep,” she heard the woman say. “I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye.

I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.

I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?”

“When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly,” he announced. “When I woke, I couldn’t... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?”

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. “What do you mean?”

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. “Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?” The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. “No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap.”

“There is the window. Leap.” Victarion had no patience for this. His wounded hand was troubling him. “What do you want?”

“The world.” Firelight glimmered in Euron’s eye. His smiling eye.

It seemed as though he had been falling for years.

Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know ‘thow to fly, so all he could do was fall.

Maester Luwin made a little boy of clay, baked him till he was hard and brittle, dressed him in Bran’s clothes, and flung him off a roof. Bran remembered the way he shattered. “But I never fall,” he said, falling.

The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. Even in dreams, you could not fall forever. He would wake up in the instant before he hit the ground, he knew. You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground.

And if you don’t? the voice asked.

The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

Not cry. Fly.

“I can’t fly,” Bran said. “I can’t, I can’t

How do you know? Have you ever tried?

The voice was high and thin. Bran looked around to see where it was coming from. A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell. “Help me,” he said.

I’m trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?

Bran reached into his pocket as the darkness spun dizzily around him. When he pulled his hand out, golden kernels slid from between his fingers into the air. They fell with him.

The crow landed on his hand and began to eat.

“Are you really a crow?” Bran asked.

Are you really falling? the crow asked back.

“It’s just a dream,” Bran said.

Is it? asked the crow.

“I’ll wake up when I hit the ground,” Bran told the bird.

You’ll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.

Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, their peaks white with snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.

That won’t do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be? I’m doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran’s hand.

“You have wings,” Bran pointed out.

Maybe you do too.

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below. “What are you doing to me?” he asked the crow, tearful.

Teaching you how to fly.

“I can’t fly!”

You’re flying tight now.

“I’m falling!”

Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.

“I’m afraid...”

LOOKDOWN!

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken’s forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Well, yeah. Originally I meant just the actual face changing. But yes, it's all part of the training to become anyone.

Who she was anyway. She's only a servant of the temple now. Still, the line isn't so clear cut. What makes a person who they are is part of what GRRM is exploring here with his characters switching names and identities, but that discussion is outside the scope of this thread, so I'll leave it there.

"What happens when Arya finds out her imposter is married to Ramsay?" I can't imagine what the title of discussion that pertains to identity would be then.

They're not religious in nature, no.

Well that's debatable.

Dulce et Decorum est pro patria mori.

But what difference does that make anyway?

And the SEALS are also an officially sanctioned part of the US navy

How do you know their members aren't disappearing?

, and while their members might not be publicly known, they still have families and lives of their own.

How do you know the faceless men don't have families and lives of their own?

Somehow I doubt they'd be getting any recruits once their members all started disappearing. The FM are a murderous cult

Them and every other religion in the history of man kind. In fact you may as well just use that as your definition of humanity.

operating independently of the Braavosi

What makes you think they operate independently? They seem to have great interest in geopolitics and intelligence gathering. As does the Iron Bank of Braavos.

. They can kill whomever they want, and are good at making it seem natural too.

And that makes them different how... http://www.slate.com...atisfying_.html

And in the end, there's no one they have to answer to.

ok. Who does Ramsay Bolton answer to? Who does Gregor Clegane? Who does Euron Greyjoy? Who did Aerys? Who does Bloodraven answer to? Who did King Robert answer to? Who does Melisandre answer to?

Why would they when the person in question is just another no one?

[kephv]

oh?

You're talking glamors here. Remember, there's actual faces involved with the FM as well as glamors. But with glamors they have to be of a similar height and build, as how Mance was with Rattleshirt. Even then it wasn't perfect. Jon could tell something was strange with him when he was fighting Mance. If it didn't matter, then someone like the waif could potentially glamor into Gregor Clegane.

who? who was trained? No one

They don't literally take their faces. They know who's original face is under the mask.

they would as long the people they assign come back.

Well if we're going by what you're saying, they wouldn't know that either, would they?

I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings.

Euron hired a FM to kill Balon. Or he didn't mention the face so as to keep a level a symbolism without giving the game away. I doubt Euron is a FM. Their training takes years and Euron was only gone for, what, two?

"What happens when Arya finds out her imposter is married to Ramsay?" I can't imagine what the title of discussion that pertains to identity would be then.

It's safe to say we've gone fairly off topic. With regards to identity though, there's different levels of loss that the characters go through. Sansa's is probably the most shallow, even though she's Alayne now, we know that LF doesn't always plan for her to remain so, and she knows that as well. Arya and Theon went through something deeper, one by choice, the other not. The only reason Theon ever wanted to be Reek was because of the abuse suffered at Ramsay's hands. If he tries telling him he's Theon, he's going to be hurt. Arya is willingly trying to give up Arya Stark, because she wants power and Arya was powerless. Therefore, she tells herself that she's no one, and tries to be fearless when accepting the tasks they give her, all in order to go further in. If Arya is still more herself than, say, the Waif was when she came there, it's because she's so young, she has already lost everything, and her only goals (learning how to kill and deceive) are ones the FM are teaching.

Well that's debatable.

Dulce et Decorum est pro patria mori.

But what difference does that make anyway?

One answers only to themselves, or whatever their religious divinations tell them. The other is part of a larger organization bound by certain rules and laws.

How do you know their members aren't disappearing?

Because we'd have heard about it. I certainly don't remember any conspiracies regarding the SEALS icing their members after their service is out, but feel free to point me in the direction of the evidence if you like.

How do you know the faceless men don't have families and lives of their own?

They did have families, but they're not allowed to have lives of their own. Their doctrines prohibit such. They're a cult whose memebers have to give up everything they were or hope to be to become one of them. This is all part of the religion. As an analogy (though not perfect) there's certain religions of ours where members have to give up marriage, or swear their lives to the church or temples to become part of the order.

Them and every other religion in the history of man kind. In fact you may as well just us that as your definition of humanity.

I won't because I'm not that cynical.

What makes you think they operate independently? They seem to have great interest in geopolitics and intelligence gathering. As is the Iron Bank of Braavos.

What makes you think they don't? Gathering intel and asserting their influence in the local politics doesn't imply they're working for someone -- besides the person that pays them to kill, that is, but they just have a business agreement; they'd don't own them.

And that makes them different how... http://www.slate.com...atisfying_.html

Anwar al-Awlaki death was anything but natural. Also, you'll have to forgive me for not shedding any tears over him. When they start targeting random people for money, then I'll be worried.

ok. Who does Ramsay Bolton answer to? Who does Gregor Clegane? Who does Euron Greyjoy? Who did Aerys? Who does Bloodraven answer to? Who did King Robert answer to? Who does Melisandre answer to?

Ramsay, to his father; Gregor, to Tywin or the Lannisters in general; Euron to himself since he's king, as was Aerys, and Robert; Bloodraven and Melisandre are both sorcerers, one who was for the Targs and ran a kingdom when it was ruled by a weak king, the other to R'hllor. And this is relevant, how?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

You're talking glamors here. Remember, there's actual faces involved with the FM as well as glamors. But with glamors they have to be of a similar height and build, as how Mance was with Rattleshirt

they aren't of a similar height and build.

. Even then it wasn't perfect. Jon could tell something was strange with him when he was fighting Mance.

Jon could tell because Mance took off the Bone Armor.

If it didn't matter, then someone like the waif could potentially glamor into Gregor Clegane.

what makes you think they can't?

They don't literally take their faces. They know who's original face is under the mask.

How do you know that? Obviously "Jaquen" has changed his face multiple times since leaving Braavos.

Well if we're going by what you're saying, they wouldn't know that either, would they?

They don't need to know that to function. If a member is given the assignment obtain a copy of The Death of Dragon from the vault in the Citadel. And a faceless man come back with the book, whether it the same person or not is irrelevant.

Euron hired a FM to kill Balon. Or he didn't mention the face so as to keep a level a symbolism without giving the game away. I doubt Euron is a FM. Their training takes years and Euron was only gone for, what, two?

Yes, she's learning how to lie. I never said she wasn't. That doesn't negate the other stuff I mentioned, though, else any great liar in the world would be able to walk in there and go from novice to master in a heartbeat.

Maybe they can. But they would have be very great indeed. Perhaps Euron, is one such.

No, because it's more than just how well they lie. Also, what makes you think Euron?

"I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."

Euron hired a FM to kill Balon. Or he didn't mention the face so as to keep a level a symbolism without giving the game away. I doubt Euron is a FM. Their training takes years and Euron was only gone for, what, two?

That doesn't negate the other stuff I mentioned, though, else any great liar in the world would be able to walk in there and go from novice to master in a heartbeat.

It's safe to say we've gone fairly off topic. With regards to identity though, there's different levels of loss that the characters go through. Sansa's is probably the most shallow, even though she's Alayne now, we know that LF doesn't always plan for her to remain so, and she knows that as well. Arya and Theon went through something deeper, one by choice, the other not. The only reason Theon ever wanted to be Reek was because of the abuse suffered at Ramsay's hands. If he tries telling him he's Theon, he's going to be hurt. Arya is willingly trying to give up Arya Stark,

No. She's not. She hid needle. She can still warg into Nymeria and skin changes into a cat. She keeps secret from the other faceless men.

because she wants power and Arya was powerless

Tell that to Hotpie, polliver, the tickler, lem lemon cloaks nose

. Therefore, she tells herself that she's no one,

She does it because that's what she need to do to pass to the next level of training

and tries to be fearless when accepting the tasks they give her, all in order to go further in. If Arya is still more herself than, say, the Waif

And if the Waif is 100% herself? If she's the same person she was when she came there?

was when she came there, it's because she's so young, she has already lost everything, and her only goals (learning how to kill and deceive) are ones the FM are teaching.

I mean whatever, it no different than being a squire or Hotpie being a baker's apprentice or Gendry an armor's apprentice

One answers only to themselves, or whatever their religious divinations tell them. The other is part of a larger organization bound by certain rules and laws.

uh. the faceless men have rules.

Because we'd have heard about it. I certainly don't remember any conspiracies regarding the SEALS icing their members after their service is out, but feel free to point me in the direction of the evidence if you like.

well that wasn't my question. I asked how you knew they weren't disappearing. To which you responded essentially, you know, because you know.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

They did have families, but they're not allowed to have lives of their own. Their doctrines prohibit such.

No. There doctrines do not.

They're a cult whose memebers have to give up everything they were or hope to be to become one of them

No. They don't. They just have to be perceived to be willing to.

That made him chuckle. “You will be the very goddess of humility, I am sure. But can you pay the price?” “What price?” “The price is you. The price is all you have and all you ever hope to have.

We took your eyes

and gave them back

.

Next we will take your ears, and you will walk in silence. You will give us your legs and crawl. You will be no one’s daughter, no one’s wife, no one’s mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own.”

She almost bit her lip again, but this time she caught herself and stopped. My face is a dark pool, hiding everything, showing nothing.

She thought of all the names that she had worn: Arry, Weasel, Squab, Cat of the Canals. She thought of that stupid girl from Winterfell called Arya Horseface. Names did not matter

. “I can pay the price. Give me a face.”

“Poor child,” said the kindly man. “Would you like to have your eyes back? Ask, and you shall see.” He asked the same question every morning. “I may want them on the morrow. Not today.” Her face was still water, hiding all, revealing nothing.

Literally compare this training to the BUDS training SEALs go through http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8823407731282996257

“The belief that BUD/S is about physical strength is a common misconception. Actually, it’s 90 percent mental and 10 percent physical,” said a BUD/S instructor at the San Diego facility. “(Students) just decide that they are too cold, too sandy, too sore or too wet to go on. It’s their minds that give up on them, not their bodies.”

“Whaddaya think? All you have to do is get up and go smack the hell out of that shiny, brass bell. You KNOW you want to. …” http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navytrng/a/sealhellweek.htm

They are testing Arya. The Kindlyman is asking Arya to DOR.

. This is all part of the religion

No. its not.

As an analogy (though not perfect) there's certain religions of ours where members have to give up marriage, or swear their lives to the church or temples to become part of the order

That's true but that has nothing to do with the faceless men.

I won't because I'm not that cynical.

I don't think I'm cynical. I just thought your definition could be applied to any religion.

What makes you think they don't? Gathering intel and asserting their influence in the local politics doesn't imply they're working for someone -- besides the person that pays them to kill, that is, but they just have a business agreement; they'd don't own them.

So you think someone paid them to kill Pate? in the prologue to Feast for Crows

Anwar al-Awlaki death was anything but natural.

Whether its natural or not is beside the point. They fact that someone doesn't bother making the death seem natural is more indicative of their ability to operate with impunity.

Also, you'll have to forgive me for not shedding any tears over him

Who said anything about tears? I just said there's nothing special about the fact that "They can kill whomever they want,"

When they start targeting random people for money, then I'll be worried.

Obviously this is an oxymoron, its impossible, so you don't have to be worried.

Ramsay, to his father; Gregor, to Tywin or the Lannisters in general; Euron to himself since he's king, as was Aerys, and Robert; Bloodraven and Melisandre are both sorcerers, one who was for the Targs and ran a kingdom when it was ruled by a weak king, the other to R'hllor. And this is relevant, how?

What difference does it make if the faceless men answer to no one? And I'm referring to Bloodraven in the present with respect to the story. The one in A Dance with Dragons.

[kephv]

they aren't of a similar height and build.

Similar enough with the bones on. Rattleshirt is small but Jon remarks he's a different man without his armor. Mance is of middling height and slender.

Jon could tell because Mance took off the Bone Armor.

Yes, and Rattleshirt is smaller without the bone armor. With it on, as Mel tells Mance, there's a better chance of the glamor working. When Mance took it off, Jon remarks that he's taller, broader, and straighter than he remembered. Jon dismisses it as him being in steel rather than bones, but we know that this isn't the case because the bones are what make the glamor more successful.

what makes you think they can't?

Besides the reasons I already mentioned... it's because GRRM puts limits on the magic in his world. If that were the case, why don't they all use glamors that make them eight feet tall? Why didn't Jaqen change his size as well as his sex? Probably because he couldn't. They're not the sexless men, after all.

How do you know that? Obviously "Jaquen" has changed his face multiple times since leaving Braavos.

Have you read Dance? They put the face over Arya's; they don't cut out the one beneath it. Also, Jaqen uses glamors and real faces. Glamors when he changed into the Alchemist and he certainly stole Pate's face.

They don't need to know that to function. If a member is given the assignment obtain a copy of The Death of Dragon from the vault in the Citadel. And a faceless man come back with the book, whether it the same person or not is irrelevant.

Well I'm sure they're happy that their goal was accomplished, but don't you think they'd ask questions such as "how did you obtain this when we sent you to the opposite side of the globe?" and "what were you doing there?" or "what happened to the guy we sent?" Once their members all just started disappearing, or doing what they wanted, they'd quickly break down. Seeing as the FM have been so successful for all these years, we can safely conclude that hasn't happened.

No. She's not. She hid needle. She can still warg into Nymeria and skin changes into a cat. She keeps secret from the other faceless men.

She is. Warging Nymeria (not even her call) and hiding Needle don't change what she's actively trying to do: become no one. See Cat of the Canals where she thinks about trying to rid herself of Arya, or the Blind Girl where she thinks of Arya as dead. Does a part of her remain? Yes, and her warging might always keep it that way, but she is succumbing to their indoctrination.

Tell that to Hotpie, polliver, the tickler, lem lemon cloaks nose

Obviously, when I say powerless, I don't mean completely powerless (i.e. unable to even lift a spoon) but powerless as in she doesn't have the power to accomplish what she wants to accomplish without magical help.

She does it because that's what she need to do to pass to the next level of training.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say she's not doing it for fun.

And if the Waif is 100% herself? If she's the same person she was when she came there?

It's hard to say. We don't know much about the Waif beyond what she told Arya. I can't see how she would be, though, since her situation was an unhappy accident.

I mean whatever, it no different than being a squire or Hotpie being a baker's apprentice or Gendry an armor's apprentice.

Well unless Hot Pie is baking for Lord Manderly. And it is different. I don't recall those professions asking them to give up everything to become what they wanted. Wanting it is different than being put in a situation where there's no other choice. Arya might have wanted the power that Jaqen had, but there's no way she could've guessed the price.

uh. the faceless men have rules.

They certainly do. Rules of their own though. Ones that they inforce themselves and aren't inforced upon them.

well that wasn't my question. I asked how you knew they weren't disappearing. To which you responded essentially, you know, because you know.

I said "because we'd have heard about it." It's logical, if you think about it. One member disappears, and if their families never hear back from them, they're probably going to inquire about it. Add to that a few hundred others and we have a case here that's bound to get some public attention. Unless, of course, they're silencing the family members, too. And does it stop there? But I don't think about things like that because I try not to be paranoid.

No. There doctrines do not.

They do.

"You will be no one’s daughter, no one’s wife, no one’s mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own.”

She's not allowed to have a family.

And:

“You know that you may leave this place. You are not one of us, not yet. You may go home anytime you wish.”

When she becomes one of them though...

Also:

"He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are. Can you do that?”

Her life will be theirs.

No. They don't. They just have to be perceived to be willing to.

They gave her her eyes back. Her life will be theirs, however. They've made that abundantly clear.

No. its not.

It is. Like the Many Faced God, they have several identities and their purpose is bringing death. In order to do that, their religion asks that they make a sacrifice. See the Kindly Man's story to not Arya for an explanation of how they acquired their second member.

That's true but that has nothing to do with the faceless men.

It does. They are a religion also, and the servants must make even more extreme sacrifices.

So you think someone paid them to kill Pate? in the prologue to Feast for Crows

No. But Jaqen's there for a different purpose. What that is, we don't know. I also don't see how it negates what I said: they're still not owned by anybody.

Whether its natural or not is beside the point. They fact that someone doesn't bother making the death seem natural is more indicative of their ability to operate with impunity.

It was an extreme case. The man was a known member of Al-Qaeda, and helped plan several attacks. Considering they're at war with them, I don't see why they would try and hide it anway.

[kephv]

Who said anything about tears? I just said there's nothing special about the fact that "They can kill whomever they want,"

There is because one side is at war with the other. They don't just kill anyone they don't like, and they're not doing it for religious purposes either.

Obviously this is an oxymoron, its impossible, so you don't have to be worried.

I meant random in the informal sense of the word -- meaning unknown. Unknown to us, that is; to them it'd be person a, b, c, etc.

What difference does it make if the faceless men answer to no one?

They're a medieval like society of magical killers who are owned by no one. They operate independently of the Braavosi and make their own rules (including one, perhaps, that involves murdering members that stray from their doctrines) so there's no one to hold them accountable for their actions. In fact, a lot of the Braavosi seem to know, or at least suspect, what they do and don't have a problem with it.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Besides the reasons I already mentioned... it's because GRRM puts limits on the magic in his world. If that were the case, why don't they all use glamors that make them eight feet tall? Why didn't Jaqen change his size as well as his sex? Probably because he couldn't. They're not the sexless men, after all.

Actually, you're yet to mention any reasons. Reasons require a logical progression of ideas. Why didn't Jaquen change his size as well as his sex? The correct answer "I have no idea. I do not have enough information"

Have you read Dance? They put the face over Arya's; they don't cut out the one beneath it. Also, Jaqen uses glamors and real faces. Glamors when he changed into the Alchemist and he certainly stole Pate's face.

You have a strange definition of "certainly" where in the book does it say this?

Well I'm sure they're happy that their goal was accomplished, but don't you think they'd ask questions such as "how did you obtain this when we sent you to the opposite side of the globe?" and "what were you doing there?" or "what happened to the guy we sent?"

No. Those are stupid questions to ask if you can't tell one another apart.

Once their members all just started disappearing, or doing what they wanted,

What makes you think they're not already doing what they want?

they'd quickly break down. Seeing as the FM have been so successful for all these years, we can safely conclude that hasn't happened.

No. You Fucking Can't. You think a medieval international organization with agents all over the world doesn't have people disappearing all the time anyway?

She is. Warging Nymeria (not even her call)

OK... what difference does that make?

and hiding Needle don't change what she's actively trying to do

That's not what she's trying to do. You can tell, cause kept needle.

: become no one. See Cat of the Canals where she thinks about trying to rid herself of Arya, or the Blind Girl where she thinks of Arya as dead. Does a part of her remain? Yes, and her warging might always keep it that way, but she is succumbing to their indoctrination.

There's nothing to fucking succumb to

Tis but thy name that is my enemy;

Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.

What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,

Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part

Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!

What's in a name? that which we call a rose

By any other name would smell as sweet;

So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,

Retain that dear perfection which he owes

Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,

And for that name which is no part of thee

Take all myself.

Obviously, when I say powerless, I don't mean completely powerless (i.e. unable to even lift a spoon) but powerless as in she doesn't have the power to accomplish what she wants to accomplish without magical help.

Her and everyone else in the world.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say she's not doing it for fun.

Oh, I don't know. She seems to be having fun to me. She is certainly enjoying herself.

It's hard to say. We don't know much about the Waif beyond what she told Arya. I can't see how she would be, though, since her situation was an unhappy accident.

What? I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Well unless Hot Pie is baking for Lord Manderly. And it is different. I don't recall those professions asking them to give up everything to become what they wanted. .

Neither is Arya's.

Wanting it is different than being put in a situation where there's no other choice. Arya might have wanted the power that Jaqen had, but there's no way she could've guessed the price. .

What price? There is no price. She learns a lot of useful skills. She has a safe place to live. An apprentice fee had to be paid for Gendry to become an armorer's apprentice

They certainly do. Rules of their own though. Ones that they inforce themselves and aren't inforced upon them.

I said "because we'd have heard about it."

That's the same thing.You're saying according to the information you have... none have disappeared. that is the same thing as saying "because we'd have heard about it."

It's logical, if you think about it. One member disappears, and if their families never hear back from them, they're probably going to inquire about it

Yeah ok. they inquire

. Add to that a few hundred others

who said anything about hundreds?

and we have a case here that's bound to get some public attention. Unless, of course, they're silencing the family members, too. And does it stop there? But I don't think about things like that because I try not to be paranoid. .

They do.

"You will be no one’s daughter, no one’s wife, no one’s mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own.”

She's not allowed to have a family.

"We took your eyes and gave them back. Next we will take your ears," That is not the same as YOU WILL NEVER HAVE EARS

And:

“You know that you may leave this place. You are not one of us, not yet. You may go home anytime you wish.”

When she becomes one of them though...

That may a correct interpretation. I don't see any mechanism, as of yet, for the organization to enforce this.

Also:

"He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are. Can you do that?”

"We took your eyes and gave them back. Next we will take your ears," That is not the same as YOU WILL NEVER HAVE EARS. Giving something up does not mean you will never again posses it

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Her life will be theirs.

They gave her her eyes back. Her life will be theirs, however. They've made that abundantly clear.

No they have not.

It is. Like the Many Faced God, they have several identities and their purpose is bringing death. In order to do that, their religion asks that they make a sacrifice. See the Kindly Man's story to not Arya for an explanation of how they acquired their second member.

That was voluntary. There's no mechanism of enforcement

It does. They are a religion also, and the servants must make even more extreme sacrifices.

No it doesn't. Its just another type of organization, the same as the Night's Watch or Kings Guard, the Maestors or the Red Priests

No. But Jaqen's there for a different purpose. What that is, we don't know. I also don't see how it negates what I said: they're still not owned by anybody.

Uh, it means they have other objectives besides simply offering the sacrament of the gift of the many faced god. It means they have loyalties and enemies. It means they are not just blind instruments of the many face god.

It was an extreme case. The man was a known member of Al-Qaeda, and helped plan several attacks. Considering they're at war with them, I don't see why they would try and hide it anway.

can you be at war with an extra national organization? At any rate, I don't see how this distinguishes the Faceless men

There is because one side is at war with the other. They don't just kill anyone they don't like, and they're not doing it for religious purposes either.

What difference does that make what their stated reasons are? All you're doing is describing the methodology they chose who "anyone they don't like" is. And of course the Faceless men don't just kill people because they don't like them anyway.

I meant random in the informal sense of the word -- meaning unknown. Unknown to us, that is; to them it'd be person a, b, c, etc.

They're a medieval like society of magical killers who are owned by no one. They operate independently of the Braavosi and make their own rules (including one, perhaps, that involves murdering members that stray from their doctrines)

There's no evidence of any such rule. Or any mechanism to enforce it

so there's no one to hold them accountable for their actions. In fact, a lot of the Braavosi seem to know, or at least suspect, what they do and don't have a problem with it.

Its not a secret. And its not clear they're independent. The greatest enemy to Braavos was Vaylria and according to them at least, the Faceless Men destroyed Valyria

[kephv]

Actually, you're yet to mention any reasons. Reasons require a logical progression of ideas. Why didn't Jaquen change his size as well as his sex? The correct answer "I have no idea. I do not have enough information"

I hate repeating myself but it's like this: Mance has to wear the bones for the glamor to be the most effective. When he takes it off, Jon notices that he's taller, broader, and straighter than he remembered Rattleshirt being. In other words, glamors aren't perfect. If such differences in height and build can be noticed between two people of an almost similar height, then certainly there'd be some problems with the Waif glamoring into Gregor Clegane. Unless of everyone just somehow decided there's nothing abnormal about a four foot tall Gregor Clegane.

You have a strange definition of "certainly" where in the book does it say this?

Probably then. Since the Faceless Men wear people's faces to become someone else, it's reasonable to assume that the reason he dragged Pate all the way into a back alley somewhere was to steal his face and assume his identity.

No. Those are stupid questions to ask if you can't tell one another apart.

:stillsick:

You can. Let's look at some of the ways. As an example, let us say that they send one guy off on a specific mission to find something, and another guy comes back with what was supposed to come back with the first guy. Obviously, that's going to throw up some red flags, and questions like those I gave would be asked. And again, even Arya knows who's who at the temple, including those who come and go. I've already pointed out the physical limitations of a little girl or skinny guy wearing the face of a fat man, so we can safely rule out face swapping.

What makes you think they're not already doing what they want?

I meant instead of doing the missions. If so, we wouldn't be seeing the same guys at the temple throughout Feast and again in Dance.

No. You Fucking Can't. You think a medieval international organization with agents all over the world doesn't have people disappearing all the time anyway?

I'm sure they've lost people but all the time? No. We know this because we're seeing the same servants coming and going throughout Feast and Dance. And if they did, they wouldn't be nearly as successful.

OK... what difference does that make?

It's not of her own will. She's not trying to keep that up; it just keeps happening.

That's not what she's trying to do. You can tell, cause kept needle.

She is. Those examples I gave you are from the book. Look them up if you don't believe me. She kept Needle because she couldn't bear to part with it, because she believes the Old Gods want her to have it. It's not the Many Faced God's to take.

There's nothing to fucking succumb to

Tis but thy name that is my enemy;

Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.

What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,

Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part

Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!

What's in a name? that which we call a rose

By any other name would smell as sweet;

So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,

Retain that dear perfection which he owes

Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,

And for that name which is no part of thee

Take all myself.

Thanks for that. If anything's clear here it's that the FM have to go through a little more than just switching their names. It's safe to say a name's just a name, but a face is a face, and a life is a life. Romeo wouldn't be the same if he was a peasant farmer instead of noble, nor would the story be the same. Going to the level of what the FM do and take that farmer's land away, take his family away, take his name, take everything that was dear to him or part of his life, and who is he then?

Her and everyone else in the world.

Not so. I don't recall everyone else in the story not being able to solve their problems for lack of magical powers. Most get along fine without.

Oh, I don't know. She seems to be having fun to me. She is certainly enjoying herself.

She enjoyed being Cat, but that's about it.

What? I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Arya volunteered for FM training; the Waif did not.

Neither is Arya's.

You're right. Apparently it's mentioned somewhere in the book that being a FM doesn't require any sacrifice at all. People just walk in there regularly and are ushered into a back room where they gain all their secrets, and then they walk out. They're obviously just fucking with Arya because it's so rarely that someone that's not from Braavos walks in there that can be taken advantage of.

What price? There is no price. She learns a lot of useful skills. She has a safe place to live. An apprentice fee had to be paid for Gendry to become an armorer's apprentice

“What we offer cannot be bought with gold. The cost is all of you." Are we reading the same books here? Do think they'd give her anything if she didn't do what she was told or wasn't of any use?

That's the same thing.You're saying according to the information you have... none have disappeared. that is the same thing as saying "because we'd have heard about it."

Show me some evidence that points to it being otherwise, then.

Yeah ok. they inquire

And if they're stonewalled, they take it to the press, trying to gather attention to this perceived injustice.

who said anything about hundreds?

If you have numbers now, by all means let's hear them.

"We took your eyes and gave them back. Next we will take your ears," That is not the same as YOU WILL NEVER HAVE EARS

If you noticed, he's not talking about her training here. He's unequivocally stating that she'll have no family life of her own.

That may a correct interpretation. I don't see any mechanism, as of yet, for the organization to enforce this.

How about this: they kill those who disobey? Those that sneak away during a mission leaving it incomplete, are sought out and then killed if they're found. But I'm sure there's rarely a need for that because it takes years to become as FM, and they choose their recruits wisely.

"We took your eyes and gave them back. Next we will take your ears," That is not the same as YOU WILL NEVER HAVE EARS.

You're eyes and arms aren't part of your personality. Obviously some of this should only be taken to mean it's part of the training, unless they're to be mistaken for training an army of quadriplegics rather than assassins. They give them take them away and give them back to prepare them for life in service of the FM.

Giving something up does not mean you will never again posses it

But that's not what they're saying here. They're saying that they're going to own her essentially. There's nothing in the books that state the FM all retire eventually.

[kephv]

No they have not.

Show me were it says service to them is temporary? There wouldn't be any need to hammer in all that she'll have to give up if it wasn't a life long commitment.

That was voluntary. There's no mechanism of enforcement

How do you know? Where did it say there there was no mechanism for enforcement? Anyway, the point was, they give up their lives (I don't mean kill themselves, but commit their lives to their service) when they commit themselves to the FM. It's voluntary, but it doesn't change what they have to give up to join.

No it doesn't. Its just another type of organization, the same as the Night's Watch or Kings Guard, the Maestors or the Red Priests

The Red Priests are part of the religious order that worships R'hllor. The FM are a religious group -- stated time and time again -- that worship Him or Many Faces. That the others also have to make sacrifices doesn't change that fact.

Uh, it means they have other objectives besides simply offering the sacrament of the gift of the many faced god. It means they have loyalties and enemies. It means they are not just blind instruments of the many face god.

But that doesn't mean they're owned by anyone so it's beside the point.

At any rate, I don't see how this distinguishes the Faceless men

The differences are obvious but here you go: "They're not religious in nature. And the SEALS are also an officially sanctioned part of the US navy, and while their members might not be publicly known, they still have families and lives of their own. Somehow I doubt they'd be getting any recruits once their members all started disappearing. The FM are a murderous cult operating independently of the Braavosi. They can kill whomever they want, and are good at making it seem natural too. And in the end, there's no one they have to answer to."

So let's break it down: one is a religious group, ones not; one kills for money; one doesn't; one takes orders from higher ups, one only follows orders of their own making; one can kill whoever they want if the price is right; one can only kill when it's legal and are bound by rules of war; one is a group of assassins, the other are a group of soldiers.

What difference does that make what their stated reasons are? All you're doing is describing the methodology they chose who "anyone they don't like" is. And of course the Faceless men don't just kill people because they don't like them anyway.

One can kill anyone they want, one can't.

There's no evidence of any such rule. Or any mechanism to enforce

Except for the fact that they're a secret society of highly trained killers, and carelessly letting their secrets get out doesn't seem like something they would approve of. The mechanism they use to inforce their rules are the indoctrination rituals that all the trainees have to go through in order to become one of them.

Its not a secret. And its not clear they're independent. The greatest enemy to Braavos was Vaylria and according to them at least, the Faceless Men destroyed Valyria

They did? They said they gave the gift to the masters, not destroyed an entire continent.