A blindingly obvious way to bypass the Wall...

[jarl the climber]

NO SHE DID NOT. She bypassed the ward by having Davos transport her.

Or playing dead.

They'd have to be transported across the way Melisandre was. Not under her own power.

Storms End was warded against the shadow she was carrying in her belly not Mel. By getting underneath it and through the wards she was the able to release it. Storms End was not warded against her nor is the Wall. The wights are inactive during the day. I think they might be able to get through an open undefended gate.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Didn't Patchface say something about dead men emerging from the black waters? This suggests that massive wight armies are just going to start coming up onto shore from the depths of the seas, marching from the north. They are dead and cannot drown or suffer from hypothermia. Also, to whoever said, "They would have done this already", You have to realize that this is a magical time in the world where the forces of the supernatural are gathering everywhere. The rebirth of the dragons, the re-lighting of the crystal candles and now the re-emergence of a long winter all point to the Others have a "moment".

[The Last Direwolf]

Didn't Patchface say something about dead men emerging from the black waters? This suggests that massive wight armies are just going to start coming up onto shore from the depths of the seas, marching from the north. They are dead and cannot drown or suffer from hypothermia. Also, to whoever said, "They would have done this already", You have to realize that this is a magical time in the world where the forces of the supernatural are gathering everywhere. The rebirth of the dragons, the re-lighting of the crystal candles and now the re-emergence of a long winter all point to the Others have a "moment".

Precisely. Almost like they have to wait for a certain time to invade, perhaps when the forces of magic in the world are so powerful that they can simply annul/overcome the negating magics in the Wall? It's all very confusing, but I'm certain that the dragons and the Others are interlinked.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Dragonglass, which Sam found out quite easily.

Sam didn't find it out easily. Coldhands, I presume, left it at the bottom of the fist of the first men for Jon. Then Ghost lead Jon to it.

And if they're not evil, I will feel really disappointed with GRRM.

OK. If they are evil, I will be really disappointed in GRRM. Because I thought I was reading a series without ridiculous tropes. If I wanted to read about a horde or Orks or Goblins or Ice Demons, there's plenty of material available, (that sucks).

He can't just build them up to be this huge monstrous threat and then make them want peace!

Its a good thing never built them into a huge monstrous threat then.

Also, I don't say they wanted peace. I said the they weren't evil. I could totally see an outcome where the Others and the King in the North have an alliance and the Red Priests Dornist have an alliance. they fight over everything in the middle.

[Teal'c]

What I was trying to get at in my sarcastic post. Was that, as soon as you see a map of Westeros, you realize there's no way the Wall could keep anyone, even it fully manned. They have two massive coastlines. There's nothing to say the Others couldn't build boats, sail to Essos, walk south and then invade via Dorne. Clearly, boats and swimming have to have been eliminated as a means of conveyance for the Others. Even if it has not been explained. If the wall is all that's holding them back. And they can build boats or go through the water. Then they already would have.

I think they've been raising Craster's sons and some are in the Night's Watch and some among the Wildings. Manchurian Crows just waiting to open the gates.

Mance?

[The Last Direwolf]

OK. If they are evil, I will be really disappointed in GRRM. Because I thought I was reading a series without ridiculous tropes. If I wanted to read about a horde or Orks or Goblins or Ice Demons, there's plenty of material available, (that sucks). Its a good thing never built them into a huge monstrous threat then.

Er, yes, he did. What else do you think Jon is preparing and bolstering the Watch's strength for? Why else did he let the wildlings, the Watch's enemies through the gates? Why else do you think the point of the feared legend of the Others is?

[Prince of Dragonstone]

OK. If they are evil, I will be really disappointed in GRRM. Because I thought I was reading a series without ridiculous tropes. If I wanted to read about a horde or Orks or Goblins or Ice Demons, there's plenty of material available, (that sucks). Its a good thing never built them into a huge monstrous threat then.

Sam didn't find it out easily. Coldhands, I presume, left it at the bottom of the fist of the first men for Jon. Then Ghost lead Jon to it.

In a way, I do agree that it would be Martin-esque for the Others to turn out to be not that evil...

BUT also, you can understand that after five books of constantly hearing about the upcoming struggle with the coldest, darkest evil that man has ever known, that for it to be revealed that they're not blood thirsty ice demons but actually Tele-tubbies will really piss A LOT of people off.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Storms End was warded against the shadow she was carrying in her belly not Mel. By getting underneath it and through the wards she was the able to release it. Storms End was not warded against her nor is the Wall.

whatever, you say that like that's different than what i said.

The wights are inactive during the day.

Are they? Or is it night when they are active? Is it cold because the Others come, or do the Others come because it is cold? that's a big distinction. in one they depend upon their environment, in the other they determine it.

I think they might be able to get through an open undefended gate.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Sam didn't find it out easily. Coldhands, I presume, left it at the bottom of the fist of the first men for Jon. Then Ghost lead Jon to it.

OK. If they are evil, I will be really disappointed in GRRM. Because I thought I was reading a series without ridiculous tropes. If I wanted to read about a horde or Orks or Goblins or Ice Demons, there's plenty of material available, (that sucks). Its a good thing never built them into a huge monstrous threat then.

Also, I don't say they wanted peace. I said the they weren't evil. I could totally see an outcome where the Others and the King in the North have an alliance and the Red Priests Dornist have an alliance. they fight over everything in the middle.

Sam didn't find it out easily. Coldhands, I presume, left it at the bottom of the fist of the first men for Jon. Then Ghost lead Jon to it.

OK. If they are evil, I will be really disappointed in GRRM. Because I thought I was reading a series without ridiculous tropes. If I wanted to read about a horde or Orks or Goblins or Ice Demons, there's plenty of material available, (that sucks). Its a good thing never built them into a huge monstrous threat then.

Also, I don't say they wanted peace. I said the they weren't evil. I could totally see an outcome where the Others and the King in the North have an alliance and the Red Priests Dornist have an alliance. they fight over everything in the middle.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

In a way, I do agree that it would be Martin-esque for the Others to turn out to be not that evil...

BUT also, you can understand that after five books of constantly hearing about the upcoming struggle with the coldest, darkest evil that man has ever known, that for it to be revealed that they're not blood thirsty ice demons but actually Tele-tubbies will really piss A LOT of people off.

No. Anyone who wants one side to be evil and one side to be good, is a fucking moron of George W. Bush, proportions. Every time, martin has set up a group to be evil, the Wildings, the Children of the Forest, the Lannisters, he has revealed the situation to be far more nuanced. Which is the only reason, I'm reading these books.

“Bael the Bard made it,” said Ygritte. “He was King-beyond-the--Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don’t sing them in the south.”

“Winterfell’s not in the south,” Jon objected.

“Yes it is. Everything below the Wall’s south to us.”

He had never thought of it that way.

“I suppose it’s all in where you’re standing.”

“

Aye

,” Ygritte agreed. “

It always is

.”

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Er, yes, he did. What else do you think Jon is preparing and bolstering the Watch's strength for? Why else did he let the wildlings, the Watch's enemies through the gates? Why else do you think the point of the feared legend of the Others is?

See, there's the problem. The Wildings are not the Watch's enemies. They're just a group of people. They can be friend or foe. Just like any other, group of people or Lord in Westeros. The same is true of the Others.

[jarl the climber]

The Others will build giant trebuchets and shoot the wights over the Wall.

[Ser? My Lady? Ser?]

See, there's the problem. The Wildings are not the Watch's enemies. They're just a group of people. They can be friend or foe. Just like any other, group of people or Lord in Westeros. The same is true of the Others.

Wouldn't one indication that the Others are at least somewhat evil be that they reanimate corpses and send them to kill innocent people?

Also, if the prologue in the first book is any indication of the Others and whether they are good or evil then I'm pretty sure they aren't looking so hot, as they gruesomely butchered a tribe of wildlings (children included), then slaughtered the rangers cruelly (laughing as they did).

Or maybe those Others were just a few bad apples, and afterwards were caught and sentenced to death for their sins in the eyes of the Great Other.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

No. Anyone who wants one side to be evil and one side to be good, is a fucking moron of George W. Bush, proportions. Every time, martin has set up a group to be evil, the Wildings, the Children of the Forest, the Lannisters, he has revealed the situation to be far more nuanced. Which is the only reason, I'm reading these books.

Obviously I agree with you on the Wildlings but not necessarily the Lannisters. Yes, we get a more complex and nuanced view of them through Cersei and especially Jaime's POVs but I wouldn't say this makes them look better. Jaime went through his own personal redemption arc but Cersei and Tywin's reputations as villains have only increased with every book. The Walk of Shame has certainly given Cersei *some* sympathy but she is still very much a villain to be despised.

[The Last Direwolf]

See, there's the problem. The Wildings are not the Watch's enemies. They're just a group of people. They can be friend or foe. Just like any other, group of people or Lord in Westeros. The same is true of the Others.

First, when the Wildlings decided to mass and invade the Wall and the Seven Kingdoms, they became the Watch's enemies. The Wildlings being let through by Jon are the same Wildlings as them, so technically, they were the NW's enemies.

And no. The NW considers all Others to be enemies. Their sole purpose when they were founded was to defend the Seven Kingdoms against the Others, back then the Wildlings didn't even enter the equation. All Others, so far, appear to be hostile to all living things apart from themselves and intent on turning the world into some undead zombie world. Others have been responsible for a near apocalypse in the past. The Others murder innocent people just to get themselves an undead host with which to smash the Westerosi. I'd say that makes them the enemy of every living thing, basically.

[Melpomene]

@Lord Littlefinger. Think you are taking things a bit too personally, or seriously. Calm down. It's just fiction.

And indeed, the Others don't seem to be all that grand, just as previous posters already clearly and legitimitely brought up. They have massacred. They have willingly created a huge amount of moving corpsefied people, and got them to automaticly kill other people. They have evidence of wanting a takeover. Would you like to be a wight? Doesn't look very appealling...

Sure, you can go ahead, try and say to one "Why hello there my good chap, shall we sit down with a spot of tea and have a wee chat about this whole killy and popsicle-zombies business?" but they give the impression of likely ignoring you and then kill you without second thought or empathy.

Thousands of years ago they invaded during The Long Night, where the Children of the Forest and First Men had to band together to defend against them. It was a very dark, dangerous and chilling era, something that no one wants to happen again. There is a reason there has been fear, a wall, NW, for the longest time. And now that there are hints of a White Walker comeback, there has been nothing but negativity occuring.

We already have a very long list of grey characters in the series, don't think it would be the end or be too tacky if The Others are officially dubbed as the bad guys.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

What innocent people did the Others kill?

Wouldn't one indication that the Others are at least somewhat evil be that they reanimate corpses and send them to kill innocent people?.

Do you know that Others control the Wights? And to what extent? Anymore than Thorus controls Beric? Bloodraven controls Coldhands? Beric controls UnCat? the Drowned God controls Patchface?

Also, if the prologue in the first book is any indication of the Others and whether they are good or evil then I'm pretty sure they aren't looking so hot, as they gruesomely butchered a tribe of wildlings (children included)

You don't know they did that

, then slaughtered the rangers cruelly (laughing as they did).

Actually they only killed one Ranger. I don't think he classifies as innocent. He's clearly a combatant with a weapon in hand

Or maybe those Others were just a few bad apples, and afterwards were caught and sentenced to death for their sins in the eyes of the Great Other.

I'm not sure the Great Other has anything to with White Walkers, or the Others

Wouldn't one indication that Humans are somewhat be that they spend the end of summer and the fall murdering one another, innocent people and burning each other's food stores?

Wouldn't one indication that wolves are somewhat evil be that they murder innocent sheep?

Wouldn't one indication that sheep are somewhat evil be that they murder innocent grass?

Wouldn't one indication that R'hollor is somewhat evil be that his followers BURN PEOPLE ALIVE?

Wouldn't one indication that R'hollor is somewhat evil be that his followers WANT TO BURN CHILDREN ALIVE?

Wouldn't one indication that Others are not evil be that Craster negotiates with them?

[Ser Lepus]

So it is sort of like the spread of an infection in a way then - one wight kills a man who becomes a wight who kills a man.... and so on.

I´m not sure a wight can make more wights. I think an Other can make more wights out of dead people, and maybe they don´t even need to touch it, just to see/sense/know the corpse is there.

Hmm well if the wights aren't infectious then the Others must have been banking all their kills before using them for the assault of the Fist, because there was a LOT of wights. That being said I don't think how the 'infection' is spread (via wight or Other or both) and your guess is as good as mine. However, unless the Others themselves have massive armies then it would be difficult for them to take all of Westoros if THEY can only infect people, and not their minions.

I think there are alot more Others than the ones we have seen. My theory is that the sunlight hurts them, so they have to retreat to a cave or similar refuge every morning (I guess burying themselves in the snow would work just as fine, but they probably prefer a more defensible refuge), so they can only move in small groups until they find or make a refuge able to hold all their army during daylight hours (like those caves Jon and Ygritte visited, for example).

I think the Others we have seen to date are rangers, scouts sent ahead, looking for refuges and mapping the route for the main body of their army. They are making wights to help them build refuges and scaring out the wildlings to secure the route for their soldiers, who will have to travel south in small groups.

we know people that they haven't killed, become Wights.

Jon had to laugh. “You never change.” “Oh, I do.” The grin melted away like snow in summer. “I am not the man I was at Ruddy Hall. Seen too much death, and worse things too. My sons …” Grief twisted Tormund’s face. “Dormund was cut down in the battle for the Wall, and him still half a boy. One o’ your king’s knights did for him, some bastard all in grey steel with moths upon his shield. I saw the cut, but my boy was dead before I reached him.

And Torwynd … it was the cold claimed him

.

Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o’ it,

before we ever knew he’d died he rose pale with them blue eyes

. Had to see to him m’self. That was hard, Jon.” Tears shone in his eyes. “He wasn’t much of a man, truth be told, but he’d been me little boy once, and I loved him.”

The Others were following Tormund´s group, coming to them at night, attacking them with cold. The wildlings made rings of fire around their camps to protect themselves, but sometimes the Others could blow out the fires, approach the camps and take some people.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

@Lord Littlefinger. Think you are taking things a bit too personally, or seriously. Calm down. It's just fiction.

I am calm. This is my normal response methodology.

And indeed, the Others don't seem to be all that grand, just as previous posters already clearly and legitimitely brought up.

I agree they aren't all that grand.

grand   [grand] Show IPA adjective, grand·er, grand·est, noun, plural grands for 13, grand for 14.

adjective

1.

impressive in size, appearance, or general effect: grand mountain scenery.

2.

stately, majestic, or dignified: In front of an audience her manner is grand and regal.

3.

highly ambitious or idealistic: grand ideas for bettering the political situation.

4.

magnificent or splendid: a grand palace.

5.

noble or revered: a grand old man.

They have massacred.

They've appeared twice in FIVE BOOKS and they've killed two people. More people die going to the bathroom in Westeros

They have willingly created a huge amount of moving corpsefied people, and got them to automaticly kill other people. They have evidence of wanting a takeover. Would you like to be a wight? Doesn't look very appealling...

Have they? I don't think that's clear. But at any rate people have created a much HUGER amount of non-moving corpsified people

Sure, you can go ahead, try and say to one "Why hello there my good chap, shall we sit down with a spot of tea and have a wee chat about this whole killy and popsicle-zombies business?"

Do they? No one has tried, that we know of. Except Craster.

but they give the impression of likely ignoring you and then kill you without second thought or empathy.

That doesn't really make them any different than Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, Roose Bolton or the Old Kings of Winter. There's always a chance, when you seek to treat with someone they will just kill you.

Thousands of years ago they invaded during The Long Night, where the Children of the Forest and First Men had to band together to defend against them

Precisely my point. The First Men and the Children of the Forest originally thought each other to be evil! Then they allied together to fight against the Others, as well as, the Andals.... THE ANDALS WHO ARE HUMANS

“They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

“But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea.

No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees

. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horrorstruck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to

make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door.

The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men,

for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

“There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children’s, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

“The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.”

Bran’s fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. “But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said.”

“Here, they are,” said Osha, as she bit off the end of the last bandage with her teeth. “North of the Wall, things are different. That’s where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races.”

Maester Luwin sighed. “Woman, by rights you ought to be dead or in chains. The Starks have treated you more gently than you deserve. It is unkind to repay them for their kindness by filling the boys’ heads with folly.”

“Tell me where they went,” Bran said. “I want to know.”

“Me too,” Rickon echoed.

“Oh, very well,” Luwin muttered.

“So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway,

the Pact endured

,

all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms,

yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

“The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests.

The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them.

Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure.

The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children

where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods.

So the children fled north

-”

. It was a very dark, dangerous and chilling era, something that no one wants to happen again. There is a reason there has been fear, a wall, NW, for the longest time. And now that there are hints of a White Walker comeback, there has been nothing but negativity occuring.

We already have a very long list of grey characters in the series, don't think it would be the end or be too tacky if The Others are officially dubbed as the bad guys.

I do. The entire concept of "bad guys" is ridiculous. And, I'll be pissed I wasted time reading this.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I´m not sure a wight can make more wights. I think an Other can make more wights out of dead people, and maybe they don´t even need to touch it, just to see/sense/know the corpse is there.

I think there are alot more Others than the ones we have seen. My theory is that the sunlight hurts them, so they have to retreat to a cave or similar refuge every morning (I guess burying themselves in the snow would work just as fine, but they probably prefer a more defensible refuge), so they can only move in small groups until they find or make a refuge able to hold all their army during daylight hours (like those caves Jon and Ygritte visited, for example.

I think the Others we have seen to date are rangers, scouts sent ahead, looking refuges and mapping the route for the main body of their army. They are making wights to help them build refuges and scaring out the wildlings to secure the route for their soldiers, who will have to travel south in small groups.

The Others were following Tormund´s group, coming to them at night, attacking them with cold. The wildlings made rings of fire around their camps to protect themselves, but sometimes the Others could blow out the fires, approach the camps and take some people.

I´m not sure a wight can make more wights. I think an Other can make more wights out of dead people, and maybe they don´t even need to touch it, just to see/sense/know the corpse is there.

I think there are alot more Others than the ones we have seen. My theory is that the sunlight hurts them, so they have to retreat to a cave or similar refuge every morning (I guess burying themselves in the snow would work just as fine, but they probably prefer a more defensible refuge), so they can only move in small groups until they find or make a refuge able to hold all their army during daylight hours (like those caves Jon and Ygritte visited, for example.

I think the Others we have seen to date are rangers, scouts sent ahead, looking refuges and mapping the route for the main body of their army. They are making wights to help them build refuges and scaring out the wildlings to secure the route for their soldiers, who will have to travel south in small groups.

The Others were following Tormund´s group, coming to them at night, attacking them with cold. The wildlings made rings of fire around their camps to protect themselves, but sometimes the Others could blow out the fires, approach the camps and take some people.

UH....I did not say that..... there's no evidence the Others can control the temperature.