Jump to content

[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion


Ran
 Share

Recommended Posts

LadyStormheart, amputation is not the same as decapitation, lol. Decapitation is what happened to Robb's daddy. :P

Reasonably put. I wouldn't disagree with any of that, especially "semi-romantic." I'd say it's not what we'd want in a romance, and I certainly wouldn't be cheering for it, but I mean--she did imagine a kiss, and there's a reason for that. I happen to think it's not healthy, but that's not the same as saying it doesn't exist. You're right on the money here.

Sandor is the nearest thing to a "true knight" that Sansa has met. They wont get together romantically but I could see them both serving the Seven.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Honorable Mention: Oh, and how is she going to escape camp while carrying Ned’s bones?).

Lol Very well spotted. I wonder if she's gonna ditch the casket and have Brienne carry his remains on a backpack :)

Or She Could Just Show Them the Dragons:

This may seem like it’s a minor issue, but it’s a little bigger than many would think. So, Dany goes to Qarth and is greeted by like 19 people- 13 of which run the city. I would have thought that if 13 people run the city they could afford more than 1.5 guards each. But whatever. Okay, so they get there and this guy who is not Illyrio, but who seems like Illyrio, greats her and her starving troupe. And she starts complaining.

Or she could just show them the dragons.

The 13 then ask- openly –to see the dragons. And Dany makes this ham-handed attempt to bypass this.

Or she could just show them the dragons.

They ask again, this time pretty forcefully. Dany begins complaining- nay threatening Qarth … in what sound slike dialog that we will hear again soon with Cersei. Burn, cow, bow, kneel; cinders blah blah blah.

Or she could just show them the dragons.

There is more talking; the fat guy who is not Illyrio waddles back and forth and says how she cannot come in. Jorah warns Dany about how she shall handle this. Things grow quiet. She is desperate now. They may not get into the city after all. Will they be forced to starve out here?

Or she could just show them the dragons.

The Summer Idles guy comes out and he starts talking about stuff WE DON’T CARE ABOUT AT ALL! And he pulls out a knife and slashes his hand and makes this bold decoration. Yes, he will let them in, but it could cost him his own head!

Or she could just show them the dragons.

Seriously, what was that? 18 minutes? Okay, it wasn’t but it sure as hell felt like it. What did we accomplish? We got to see CGIs of a city. It may have been better to have seen CGI’d dragons, but whatever. All that time standing there and watching that pointless discussion, all I could think of was:

Or they could have just taken the fucking dragons by force :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand it is very hard to adapt this season (more so than the first season) because of all the different story lines, but I'm just not getting the same feeling from this season so far. I think once Renly dies next episode it will streamline some story telling, but the last 6 eps better really ramp things up. I'm getting a 'slow meandering plot line' feeling from it right now. Unfortunately, ACOK was he same way until about half way through IIRC.

I really hope HBO cuts down on these extra pointless scenes that are IMO dragging down the eps that weren't in the book.

This is concerning to me. Elsewhere, I'm starting to see the same complaint over and over from non-book readers, all too often - "this is getting too hard to follow."

Adding ridiculous scenes such as Ros beating another whore because "we really need to hammer home that Joffrey is a sadistic little shit!!" are not doing GoT any favors. WE KNOW Joffrey is a sadistic little shit. The canon scene of him having Sansa publically stripped and humiliated was all we needed. (And that scene was awesome. Peter Dinklage stepped right out of the pages of the book.)

If Dany's CG!dragons are too expensive to create, then how difficult would it have been to have Nameless Member Of the 13 invited to walk up to a cage and peek in, then turning around with a wondrous look on his face and telling Dany "welcome to Qarth, Mother Of Dragons!"? Why was that scene with such stupid dialogue necessary? (At least they managed to introduce Xaro there. Another character that was whizzed on by and is leaving viewers more confuzzled.)

And the pacing could have been improved upon in this episode. Cut out Joffrey's dumbass whore-beating scene, and there'd have been plenty of time for Mel's shadow-baby to drift into Renly's tent and gut him, cliffhanging on Brienne & Catelyn's shocked, horrified faces. Next episode opens with all hell breaking loose, Brienne fighting her way out of the tent/camp, and she & Cat gone within the first 3 minutes.

IMO, there are simply too many characters that need to be more carefully introduced, there are too many intricate plots and threads that need to be more carefully explained, and they have precious little time as it is. Please, producers, think it through before S3 begins filming. I'll be heartbroken if this show gets canceled because people simply can't follow anymore, and don't want to bother trying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good episode overall. I loved the shadowbaby and the Harrenhall scenes, Michelle Fairlay was amazing as always, and the Sansa scene was well done.

I don't like what the writers are doing to LF. He is so clumsy and obvious in his dealings. Why was he so cocky and provocative with Margaery with all those unsubtle hints about Rrenly and Loras, instead of trying to make her like him? Apparently Renly doesn't like him too, which is no surprise after the first season, of course, but you got to wonder how did LF succeeded for many years in the court being a very minor noble with no retainers or lands to speak of, when he's so good at making people dislike him. And his scene with Cat..I know he's obsessed about her, but come on, he's smart enough to know how stupid would be to hit on her at this moment, especially given how much was at stake for him politically.

Edited by David Selig
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a qn regarding our man Stannis and Mel's offer to give Stannis a son.

Is Mel tricking Stannis into sex by offering Stannis a son (normal son, blood of his blood and all that) while Mel was planning on shadow babies all along?

Mel seriously isnt gonna give Stannis a proper son right?

But Stannis seems to know that Mel is going to do some magic that night... but does he know its a shadow baby? produced by his life force and probably what Mel meant by 'son'.

Im confused....

Edited by Lord of Cheese
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anybody else notice that Tyrion never calls Lancel by name? Just "cousin". :) Also, I thought Lancel looked *perfect*. Pretty much exactly like I imagined him. Sadly, he looks much like Loras, who is nothing like I imagined him. A bit too effete for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one else think it's weird that Renly and Stannis were just suddenly having a parley? I mean I know how it got to that point from reading the books but the show never gave any indication that Stannis was taking his fleet to Storms End, did it?

Also, are they even at Storm's End? We haven't even seen a glimpse of it yet Davos has taken Mellisandre through his smuggler's route. It doesn't seem to me like they're explaining anything to TV viewers.

Why are they even underneath Storms End? The first shadowbaby was born out in the camps wasn't it? It also was to kill Renly not the custodian of Storms End...so I'm a bit confused as to what is going on in the show at the moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a qn regarding our man Stannis and Mel's offer to give Stannis a son.

Is Mel tricking Stannis into sex by offering Stannis a son (normal son, blood of his blood and all that) while Mel was planning on shadow babies all along?

I doubt we are meant to know for sure one way or the other, but I would say that this is the most likely interpretation, yes.

Mel seriously isnt gonna give Stannis a proper son right?

A human son? Not without seriously derailing the plot from what the books have, for certain. Even allowing for some plot deviation, even I don't quite picture Stannis as favoring a bastard son over Shireen. Then again, it seems that Shireen does not exist in the TV show.

My best bet is that in the TV show (as arguably in the books as well) Melisandre is simply using Stannis and playing with him. By the time he fully realizes that he will be too knee deep to turn back, assuming he even cares and survives that long.

Personally, I think that makes Stannis too much of a sympathetic victim for my liking. I picture Stannis as more of a self-serving hypocrite in denial.

Still (so far) there is nothing to disprove that Melisandre is misleading Stannis, either.

But Stannis seems to know that Mel is going to do some magic that night... but does he know its a shadow baby? produced by his life force and probably what Mel meant by 'son'.

Im confused....

We must assume that Stannis has at least a vague notion that Melisandre is indeed working at some kind of magical effect at that point. He is certainly not demanding Davos' help just so that Melisandre can get a good view of the region for inspirational purposes.

Just how much a grasp of the situation he has is unclear, however.

My personal stance is that Stannis himself could hardly fail to notice the toll the magic causes on his physical health, since Melisandre is actually fearing for his survival if it happens a third time. So I would assume that he is in denial yet fully aware of what is happening.

There are other, intriguing possibilities. For one, maybe Melisandre is lying to Davos about the toll of the shadow conceptions; maybe Stannis is in fact dying of some sort of disease (which may or may not have been created or transmitted by Melisandre herself, purposefully or otherwise). That would go a long way towards explaining their hurry and recklessness in the books, as well as the strength of the appeal of a son in the TV series. I hadn't considered that until now, but I like this crackpot speculation. I don't see how it would have trouble fitting with the text of the books, either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pretty sure he is referring to the fact that even if the two actors cast as the Mountain are of the same height, the former Ser Gregor must have weighed twice as much. He was HUGE compared to this new extra lengthy toothpick.

Conan didn't come back because he got too if for his britches with other projects, even though he said himself that he was made to play the Mountain. Not the producers choice at all. So they hired a guy who played the White Walker in season one. He is talented with a sword and 7+ feet tall. Not the easiest person in the world to find.

The new Gregor was just too disproportionate. Each time I saw him it made me think of the knights who say 'Ni'. Definitely immersion breaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing about the Tickler is not that he is a really creepy looking guy that tortures people, its that he is a plain guy who doesnt stand out and could be any other soldier who happens to torure people in some screwed up ways. His averageness is what makes him creepy, the fact that he is so plain that anyone could turn out to be like him is what makes him creepy. At least that is what I picked from the books, in that respect I think they cast the actor perfectly.

Agreed.

the book does not = the TV show

We know.

stop complaining about every little or big change,
No.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, the strongest "vitriol" I've seen in this thread has been towards people expressing disappointment over some of the changes - not from the people expressing disappointment themselves. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how understanding most people are being about the necessary deviations. My TV does have an "off" button, this is true - but your browser also has a close button.

Let's be honest - one of the best parts about watching the shows after reading the books is pointing out the deviations. It's a lot of fun. It's like we get to enjoy the story the show presents us, as well as relive and remember the book version as well. It does help to think of them as two separate but similar story lines, yet at the same time, the major plot points should at least try and stay the same. Every time they make a change that could have serious butterfly effects, I raise an eyebrow and think "Oh, it will sure be fun to see how they fix THAT."

Thanks to all the folks who mentioned that Jaken states that "the red god must have his due" in the books, because I had forgotten that. I suppose next week we will see more clearly what they are doing and it can be discussed more then.

What I found interesting about the non-peach Renley/Stannis scene, is that I actually felt Renley seemed more stressed than Stannis. Perhaps when I read the books, I perceived Stannis as an even harder man. This really bothered me at first, and then I shrugged and decided it was just a different take, and that's okay too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have mixed feelings about this episode. On the positive, I loved the shadowbaby scene. I think it came out perfectly. I believe from the book, the shadow is supposed to look like Stannis, but there is still time in the next episode for it to "take form" so to speak. I really liked the KL scenes. I know a lot of people were complaining about Joff's whore scene being unnecessary, but I think it was there more to show he was willing to take on Tyrion man-to-man, since he was sending the beaten girl up to him afterward. Joff's had enough of his uncle's scolding, he's a king now and can do as he pleases. Harrenhal was perfect, exactly how I imagined it would be. Dark, gloomy, depressing.

I really didn't like the major departures from the book, and thought they weren't needed. Seeing Renly grab that apple while talking to Littlefinger felt like a smack in the face to the readership "haha we're giving him an apple, no peach scene for you." The whole scene felt off.

Littlefinger gave Cat Ned's bones, that was the biggest WTF moment in this series so far. The state of Ned's bones is still in question in the books. I know it's not a major plot point, but didn't know why the needed to spend time on it this episode.

The Dany scenes were better than usual, but I'm not a huge fan of the Dany storyline to begin with, both in the books and the show, so I'm a little biased here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I liked that fact that the Lannister soldiers at the beginning was arguing over the same things as we do on the forum, "who is the best swordsman, warrior, etc."

Otherwise I thought that newGregor was a bit of a disappointment, the guy didn't have the imposing build that Conan Stevens had. The Tickler on the other hand was pretty much perfect, an unremarkable guy doing terrible things and being absolutely unaffected by it. Overall the Harrenhall scenes were the best of the episode, seeing Tywin again was great and Aryas expending prayer too.

And lastly, the shadowbaby-scene was kind of weird.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Littlefinger gave Cat Ned's bones, that was the biggest WTF moment in this series so far. The state of Ned's bones is still in question in the books. I know it's not a major plot point, but didn't know why the needed to spend time on it this episode.

Your that worried about Ned's bones? I am pretty sure they can still get lost when Catelyn gets killed and unkilled or whatever.

I think they spent time because, as LF said it was Tyrion's way of showing good faith. He gave her this without anything from her. She can still decide to do something or do nothing. It was another way to show how vastly superior Tyrion is at working with, understanding, and manipulating people than his relatives in Kings Landing right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, the strongest "vitriol" I've seen in this thread has been towards people expressing disappointment over some of the changes - not from the people expressing disappointment themselves. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how understanding most people are being about the necessary deviations. My TV does have an "off" button, this is true - but your browser also has a close button.

Count me in the general disappointment camp. I'm not a literalist. I can live with them dropping characters, scenes, or sub plots in the service of a well told story. Some of the added scenes are often pretty strong (Robert and Cersei, Jamie and Robb, etc...). But this, for the most part, was a terribly written episode. Just compare it to last week's, which although there are plenty of deviations from the core text, but was for the most part smart and engaging. This was just a mess.

Top 5 Things to Hate in This Episode

1. The Lannister guards gossiping about Loras/Renly - Really? At the west end of the continent, two low level sentries know about the King's Uncle and his 'secret' homosexual relationship with one of the sons of the Lord of High Garden. Is it a big deal that Renly needs to keep his homsexuality secret or not? Apparently not, given everybody knows.

2. Shae 2.0 - Jeyne Westerling or whatever her name is. Another sassy girl from across the narrow sea who is willing to insult a Lord. Yes - Its lazy writing 101. Watch how Robb (or Tyrion) is impressed with her moxie and her independence. And then falls for this girl. Its like bad fan fiction. And they have already done this with Tyrion.

3. Joffrey the Sadist. Unlike Cersei, who has become much more well rounded, than she is in the books, Joffrey has become more and more a caricature. Two scenes, back to back, of him humilating women. We get it already! There was so many other, more interesting places, they could have gone with an additional Joffrey scene. The ordering of sodomy is not one of them.

4. Littlefinger the Inept. His scenes with Margaery and Catelyn are painful. That was best they could become with? As written, its amazing that this "Littlefinger" was ever brought to KingsLanding by Jon Arryn in the first place.

5. Tyrion and Lancel. Watch last weeks master class in writing to see a well put together scene of Tyrion manipulating and playing members of the court. Watch this weeks scene to see what not to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...