[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

[J_Crews]

Robb was 14 in the books, not 30 as in the show.

I'm of the mind Robb and Joffrey are supposed to be 19 and 16, respectively, now that we're into Season 2 of the show. In the books, one is a man grown at 16, but TV audiences ain't gonna fly with 16 year-olds (and younger) humping and killing each other over half the kingdoms.

Robb is King in the North in his own right, meaning he's of age. Joffrey is not, otherwise there would be no regent. In the books, Robb was 15-16, while Joffrey was 12, turning 13, hence the Queen Regent title for Cersei.

Robb was born at Riverrun during Robert's Rebellion in 283 AL. Jon Arryn died in 298 AL, meaning Robb was 15 at the start of the 1st book. Joffrey, on the other hand, is listed as being born in 286 AL, meaning he was only 12.

Dany got similar treatment. She was 13 when she married Drogo, according to GRRM's own text. Is anybody really thinking Amelia Clark (24-25 years old) was playing her as a 13 year old getting plowed by Drogo every night. No. She looks younger than her age, but not by that much. She was playing her as more like 17.

Further, Bran was only 7-8 and Arya 10 in the books, yet they're being played by actors who are 12 and 15, respectively, and they don't seem to me to be pretending to be 7 and 10 -- but, rather, closer to 10-11 and 12-13. Just my opinion.

Sansa is 13 in the books, of an age with Joffrey, yet she's being played by a 16 year old actress. Oddly enough, she seems to be getting played as little kid vis a vis the Queen nosing around and Sansa reluctantly admitting to her that she hasn't had her first period yet. That seems to maybe have been a bit of a screw-up.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Edited April 23, 2012 by J.S. Crews

[Dragon of Valyria]

J.S. Crews: I'm sure the Tyrells were thinking 'oh no, not the whores! He's gone too far this time! Killing lords and abusing highborn ladies, well, heh, boys will be boys but whores? oh the humanity.' :P

Edited April 23, 2012 by Dragon of Valyria

[Grungo]

Okay, I'm pretty sure I saw Pyrat Pree in there among the Thirteen. Or at least some guy with blue lips (who looked like the guy who was casted to play Pree). Suppose that could mean Quaithe (sp?) was somewhere in there too? I'll have to look for her next time I watch it.

[NeilSpoon]

I just watched the episode here in the UK and after reading this forum beforehand, I was quite intrigued to see the Joffrey scene.

My thoughts were along the lines of "is that it?" though my flat mate asked me why on earth I was watching this and left the room in disgust lol.

Anyway, I liked the episode on the whole. It was definitely very dark and gruesome.

The Qarth scene was a bit awkward and just didn't make sense. Just show them the dragons?

My least favorite part of the book has always been the shadow babies, mainly because it's a bit contrived and because it's Mel doing it, as I always considered her a bit of a fraud.... And I suppose I just prefer the realistic part of the books.

[Lady Lilac]

I liked the episode overall.

Well, except for my big main disappointment: no peach I mean come on, why skip that of all things?

Aside from that, the scene with Tiryon and Lancel was brilliant, Harrenhal is even creepier than I expected and the Tickler really was great. Plain looking, nothing special, yet still very creepy. Oh and Roose Bolton too. They pretty much nailed the mellow/creepy voice he's supposed to have.

[chris_warrior]

forever and a half to read through 22 pages of comments, but it can be done. and i agree with a lot of the criticism and praise due this episode. it would be cool to come up with some sort of poll; kind of wondering if some HBO exec wouldn't be interested...

Check all of the following that apply:

(1) 2.4 derivation from original text bothered me (specifics in comments)

(2) 2.4 derivations from original text did not bother me.

(3) 2.4 extensive violence bothered me.

(4) 2.4 extensive violence did not bother me.

(5) 2.4 screen time given to extreme violence would have been better spent elsewhere (specifics in comments)

(6) 2.4 screen time given to (specific character in comments) would be better spent elsewhere.

(7) member of the "We think the character of Ros isn't working" club.

(8) member of the "We think the character of Jeyne/whoever she is this week isn't working" club.

(9) member of the "We think you've softened LF too much club."

(10) member of the "We know your budget is limited, but would it have killed you to show us the dragons?" club.

(11) member of the "We know your budget is limited, but would it kill you to show us more battles?" club.

(12) 2.4 changes in casting bothered me.

(13) 2.4 changes in casting did not bother me.

and so on...

--

most of the plot changes from book to TV show did not bother me. wasting screen time on scenes that i found so distasteful i will almost certainly FF through them on any repeated viewing of the show bothered me. as i understood it, the Tyrell crew executes the PW because Sansa lets slip that Joffrey is an evil bastard, and she's talking about how he treats her, Sansa. the fact that he'd be willing to beat up whores (and no, i didn't find the scene non-canon, simply disgusting) possibly wouldn't bother them at all; plight of common folk, and all that.

i too wondered why they showed us the Shadow meant to kill Renly and didn't end with the killing. i think it would have actually linked the 'baby' and the death in a concrete way. the creepiness of Mel was well done, and the scene was impressive.

disliked the Quarth scene because i feel it made Dany seem (more than usual) an idget. she blustered and threatened and blew smoke (pun intended) and came off looking terrible. i don't remember having quite so bad an opinion of her after reading CoK, as viewing this season.

i agree with some posters that i think i would have been fairly confused with how Stannis got to Renly, if i hadn't read the books.

continue to like the Arya material and Robb material, though the torture sequences at Harrenhal being shown that way were awful. again, FF, for me. there's a lot of bad stuff coming down the pike (Theon, Ramsey, etc) and this episode has me wondering how awful it may get.

[iheartseverus]

J.S. Crews: I'm sure the Tyrells were thinking 'oh no, not the whores! He's gone too far this time! Killing lords and abusing highborn ladies, well, heh, boys will be boys but whores? oh the humanity.' :P

What I took from J.S. Crews post is that Joffrey's conduct with the whores shows his sexual sadism towards women, and that is a danger to Margaery and therefore, to the Tyrell's. And I totally, 100% agree with J.S. Crews.

[Roose Seal]

The Qarth scene was funny but not in a good way.

Even if they don't have money for the dragons, just have one of the thirteen look under the rags over the cages, we don't have to actually see the dragons.

It seemed like a very silly and forced way to introduce Xaro and have him vouch for Dany.

The whole scene felt comedic, it almost looked like Emilia Clarke was about to burst out laughing at the ridiculousness of her lines.

[Ghost714]

In the intro they showed Kingslanding, Harrenhall, Pyke, Winterfell, The Wall, and Qarth. I understand them showing Kingslanding, Harrenhall, and Qarth, because in this episode they went to those places. So why did they show Pyke, Winterfell and the Wall? If they didn't go there? I mean I have no problem with them showing places on the map, even if we don't go there in the that specific episode, but if they are going to show a few places, even though we did not go there, why not show them all, for example they left out Dragonstone in the intro of this episode. So again, if they are going to show places that we don't go to in that episode, then why not just show all of the locations marked on the map so far?

Edit.

Does anyone else think the guy playing Lancel is a horrible actor? I mean I know he was going to look bad in comparison to Peter Dinklage, because Dinklage is so good, but in the Throne Room scene, before Tyrion got there, the actor playing Lancel was still horrible IMO.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Ghost714

[ghost the direwolf]

i was not impress by the Joffrey/whores scene , I thought it was going to be very gross, i did not like the Baelish Catelyn interaction at all. Him putting ideas into her head as if she cannot come to those decisions by herself like in the book. but that is just me. i did not mind Ross this time , guess i am used to her now.

I did not notice the mountain Gregor at all where was he? and what was that with grey wind I was and am expecting more.

[legba11]

It's amusing the quick to attack people suggesting Renly would be unable to have a child. I realize that in our society today, we are quick to take any opportunity to pat ourselves on the back for how unXXXXXXist (race, religion, sexuality, shoe color, dentist, shoe color...) we are. HOWEVER, the show has made it quite clear that this particular gay man DOES have an issue with it. So it is a legitimate talking point.

[J_Crews]

it was a sceptre, wasn't it? At least that's what I thought - it made it even more symbolic in my head, using a symbol of royalty and power to beat up prostitutes.

Yep. Think you nailed it. A scepter it was.

[Morrigan]

Why bitch about the intro? They'd been showing Vaes Dothrak since episode 2, and kept showing it long after the khalasar had moved on from there. They show Winterfell for every episode even if no scene happens there. Etc.

[J_Crews]

What I took from J.S. Crews post is that Joffrey's conduct with the whores shows his sexual sadism towards women, and that is a danger to Margaery and therefore, to the Tyrell's. And I totally, 100% agree with J.S. Crews.

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner. Actually, it wasn't my post, though -- just one I agreed with wholeheartedly. This follows, btw, exactly with the books. Sure, no whore-torture was involved, but the way he had treated Sansa alone got him iced. The Tyrells weren't having that mess with their precious Margaery.

[Leuf]

Also wanted to say I thought Harrenhal looked more like what I imagined Moat Cailin to look like. And what was up with there not being enough room in the most gigantic but empty castle in Westeros to torture people inside? I don't get it. Wouldn't it have been easier to shoot all that indoors anyway? I honestly don't know and am apparently wrong, I just don't get why. I suppose also Tywin couldn't have come riding in on a horse, but still, Charles Dance doesn't need to be on a horse to command a scene.

And why is the Tickler asking if there's gold in the village when they're long gone from the village? It doesn't make any sense.

Anyways, looking at some of the episode reactions from book readers and non-book readers, the episode does seem to have worked better for the non-book readers. So that's good.

[Raksha the Demon]

Tyrion said this after he rescued Sansa. What does it mean? He's talking about Catelyn?

"lady stark. you may survive us yet"

That bothered me as well, since Sansa is never addressed as "Lady Stark" (since she is not married to Lord Stark or ruling Winterfell as its Lady). Lady Stark is Catelyn. Tyrion should know the difference. If the writers wanted to emphasis Tyrion's respect for Sansa as a Stark, they could have had him call her "Lady Sansa Stark".

I suppose the appellation could stand since Catelyn and Robb have been formally attainted. But wouldn't Bran and Rickon, who are still ahead of Sansa in the order of succession to ruling Stark, be too young to be attainted as traitors, and thus potentially considered, at least Bran, as the only Lord Stark they might recognize? Or has the Crown proclaimed Sansa to be the ruling Stark, with Joffrey as a nominal regent since he is both King and Sansa's betrothed and Sansa (if she is officially 14 on TV) is still a minor?

It's murky; but I too thought the line was awkward.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Raksha the Demon

[dark sister]

He looks 30, regardless of whether he's supposed to be 18 or not, Obviously, he cannot truly be 30.

He really looks 30 to you? Damn! I've seen him in this other show from the UK called Sirens, and he looks his true age there (24 or 25). He also looks way hotter on that show for some reason. Maybe it's because they don't make him as scruffy looking.

[Serr Parker]

Ok this will probably get edited about 40 times by the time I remember everything but here goes:

Stannis, Renly, Davos, Mel: Enjoying Stannis all the way through the show so far, I think the actor fits him perfectly. The "Robert is true steel, Renly is Copper, Stannis is Iron" quote comes to mind straight away when I see the show. Must say I'm disappointed not to see Lightbringer yet, when I read the book that was one of the things I was really looking forward to, hope they haven't took it out of the show altogether. Didn;t liek the shadow scene in the book but thought it worked well in the show. Thought it was a strange place to end though, killing Renly would have been perfect for it, hopefully we'll see Storms End as well, they've done such a good job with Harrenhal it would be nice to see their interpretation of other places as well.

Robb: Liked seeing Robb from the enemy's point of view, the scene managed to show the grimness of war that didn't come across to me in the book. I've heard all of the Robb scenes George has wrote for the show, don't know how true it is but hopefully it'll be true, get to see the development of Jeyne.

Joff, Sansa, Tryion: Tryion gets better and better, plays the role perfectly. The Loras scene was the perfect adaptation. I can see why the Joff/Whore scene was put in, as the Sansa one wasn't as bad as in the book, but still really? You don't put the perfect prologue in yet we're left with this? One of the parts I didn't like so much.

Ayra, Gendry: Loved every part of this, was sceptical at first with missing the village part out but it's made up for it now. I know people say The Tickler wasn't very scary but have him sat there with his monotone voice perfectly calm as he tortures people was great, shows how sick he is. Tywin comes across exactly how he did in the book for me, I liked him. He's a dick but you respect him because he's great at everything he does.

Overall: 8-9/10 Parts I wasn't expecting to be so good ended up being great. (Robb and Harrenhal) however disappointing with the shortness of the Stannis/Renly confrontation. Also the quicker Ros goes the better, the show and series is too short without wasting time on story lines no one could care less about.

[Dragon of Valyria]

That bothered me as well, since Sansa is never addressed as "Lady Stark" (since she is not married to Lord Stark or ruling Winterfell as its Lady). Lady Stark is Catelyn. Tyrion should know the difference. If the writers wanted to emphasis Tyrion's respect for Sansa as a Stark, they could have had him call her "Lady Sansa Stark".

I suppose the appellation could stand since Catelyn and Robb have been formally attainted. But wouldn't Bran and Rickon, who are still ahead of Sansa in the order of succession to ruling Stark, be too young to be attainted as traitors, and thus potentially considered, at least Bran, as the only Lord Stark they might recognize? Or has the Crown proclaimed Sansa to be the ruling Stark, with Joffrey as a nominal regent since he is both King and Sansa's betrothed and Sansa (if she is officially 14 on TV) is still a minor?

It's murky; but I too thought the line was awkward.

I don't think that the books or the show follow English rules of address, because it's way too inconsistent. Why "Lord Stark" but "Lord Tywin," for instance? That said, you're right that Lady Stark has always been used for Catelyn; Tyrion ought to have said "Lady Sansa," with the surname being surplusage. But I don't think it's too much of a big deal, really, given that the show and the books don't make a big deal about it themselves.

Ultimately, I think Tyrion was paying her respect for the way Sansa refused to take the easy (and probably dangerous) out. The fact that endured that sort of monstrous treatment and could still walk out of the room with her head held high. . . that was enormous, and every bit worthy of the adult title 'Lady Stark.' It was a beautiful ending to what started out as a distressing and horrifying scene.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Dragon of Valyria

[iheartseverus]

That bothered me as well, since Sansa is never addressed as "Lady Stark" (since she is not married to Lord Stark or ruling Winterfell as its Lady). Lady Stark is Catelyn. Tyrion should know the difference. If the writers wanted to emphasis Tyrion's respect for Sansa as a Stark, they could have had him call her "Lady Sansa Stark".

It's murky; but I too thought the line was awkward.

Strange that we all see things so differently. Tyrion's 'Lady Stark...' line was my absolute favorite in the entire episode. I thought it was the perfect movie moment, in that it conveyed a world of recognition and respect in just a few words. With that line, Tyrion is saying (in my interpretation) that he was extremely impressed with the dignity, maturity and sheer grown-up class with which Sansa handled herself following that terrible public humiliation. I believe he meant it as a salute to a girl Stark who'd handled herself as magnificently as if she'd been a Lady Stark. I loved it! Loved it!