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Targaryen Question - Ruling Queens


FaelaeshioDream

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If Jon were to rule, all he would need is a sword and support.. Support of an army, of the small folk, etc. Robert Baratheon didn't win the throne because of a piece of paper. He took it by force and with support.

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ETA: My mistake - as pointed out below - it was not the Blackfyre rebellion but the Dance of Dragons that caused the change to the Salic system.

Any time I hear Salic law referenced, I feel a compulsion to jump on a cart and exhort my happy few.

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If Jon were to rule, all he would need is a sword and support.. Support of an army, of the small folk, etc. Robert Baratheon didn't win the throne because of a piece of paper. He took it by force and with support.

Anybody with the support of a great army could win the throne, the point is doing it as a conqueror/usurper who would have to kick everybody else´s asses, or as a legitimate claimant who would earn the support of a majority from the beginning.

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Yeah, I discussed this before that women in House Targaryen don't rule and there's only been a few times where they have been given a considerable amount of power as consort. Aegon I, Jaehaerys I, and Daeron II gave their queens a lot of power but the majority do not.

There was a time when Aerion's daughter could have inherited but the counsel passed over her and disinherited Aerion's line due to craziness and the fact that they didn't want a female to inherit.

GRRM has hinted at a second Dance of the Dragons so Dany has the opportunity to change the role of women in her house. Last time a woman lost and this time one may win.

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It might have been semi-Salic rather than Salic law, that is, women can't inherit but they can pass on their claim to their male descendants. That would at least explain how Robert Baratheon was considered to have any sort of valid blood claim.

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Yeah, I discussed this before that women in House Targaryen don't rule and there's only been a few times where they have been given a considerable amount of power as consort. Aegon I, Jaehaerys I, and Daeron II gave their queens a lot of power but the majority do not.

There was a time when Aerion's daughter could have inherited but the counsel passed over her and disinherited Aerion's line due to craziness and the fact that they didn't want a female to inherit.

Actually, it was the daughter of Daeron (the Drunken) who was passed over. She was considered feeble-witted. Aerion's son was passed over due to craziness.

Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm; his own

maester had seen to that. "That was the year of the Great Council," he said. "The lords passed over Prince Aerion's infant son and Prince Daeron's daughter and gave the crown to Aegon."

"Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion's on the throne, and Daeron's girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon's younger brother-Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son.

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Why because she menstruated?

It's magic, all the parts can be there and seem to work and...not.

I'm pretty sure GRRM specifically put that in there to show that she can, indeed, have children again. What would be the point of Dany taking back her birthright if she were to be the last of the Targaryen bloodline?

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Namerya was a queen?

I think it is possible for a Queen targ, just that there must not be born any son, as son's always have a better claim, but a daughter can have a better claim than a uncle for exemple. If she gets married her husband is the king, but his crow comes from her, so the power would still be hers.

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Namerya was a queen?

I think it is possible for a Queen targ, just that there must not be born any son, as son's always have a better claim, but a daughter can have a better claim than a uncle for exemple. If she gets married her husband is the king, but his crow comes from her, so the power would still be hers.

Queen Nymeria of the Rhoyne ruled in Dorne long before the Targaryens ever set foot in Westeros.

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Thanks everyone for the input. It's good to know that if Dany comes flying in to retake the throne, the very bloodline she might say gives her the right to claim the iron throne in fact denies her claim to take it.

Not necessarily. Her claim would still be the strongest in the Targaryen lineage - putting aside aegon and Jon for a moment . Stannis/shireen's claim is through a female line so is no stronger than her own - less as she's closer to Aerys.

Besides it is clear to anyone that sees her she is the Targ heir. Dragons, appearance, etc. Whether that sways you depends on whether You think the Targ dynasty was truly ended or just put on hiatus (is 16 years enough to really and truely establish a new dynasty?)

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Why because she menstruated?

She had a miscarriage.

Not necessarily. Her claim would still be the strongest in the Targaryen lineage - putting aside aegon and Jon for a moment . Stannis/shireen's claim is through a female line so is no stronger than her own - less as she's closer to Aerys.

I think that without more information about how hardcore the Targs' Salic system is, it's difficult to know with certainty whether Stannis would come before Dany or vice versa. Does "all possible male claimants" mean "all possible male claimants" or do they make exceptions for males through the female line? It was through Rhaelle Targaryen that Robert was able to make a claim. Other than the Great Council — where there were still plenty of males to pick from anyway — I can't think of an instance where this sort of thing was ever really put to the test.

Besides it is clear to anyone that sees her she is the Targ heir. Dragons, appearance, etc. Whether that sways you depends on whether You think the Targ dynasty was truly ended or just put on hiatus (is 16 years enough to really and truely establish a new dynasty?)

Far as I'm concerned, the Targ dynasty in effect ended when the nobles swore fealty to Robert and acknowledged the Baratheons as the new ruling house. Being put on hiatus assumes that the Targs will start up again — and they might, but I doubt it will be permanent and/or will cover the original territory.

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Does anyone know what evidence there is that all male claimants are in front of all female claimants in the line of succession? The only thing I can find is this wiki page on the Dance of the Dragons, but it doesn't cite anything from the books or from a SSM. As far as I can tell, whoever wrote that page is simply inferring from the example of Daena the Defiant and her sisters, who were passed over for the crown in favor of Viserys II. However, while it may be reasonable to assume based on these examples that uncles inherit ahead of daughters, I'm not sure there is enough info to show that all female claimants fall behind all male claimants. Is there perhaps some sort of semi-canon material, such as a SSM, that states this explicitly?

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Does anyone know what evidence there is that all male claimants are in front of all female claimants in the line of succession? The only thing I can find is this wiki page on the Dance of the Dragons, but it doesn't cite anything from the books or from a SSM. As far as I can tell, whoever wrote that page is simply inferring from the example of Daena the Defiant and her sisters, who were passed over for the crown in favor of Viserys II. However, while it may be reasonable to assume based on these examples that uncles inherit ahead of daughters, I'm not sure there is enough info to show that all female claimants fall behind all male claimants. Is there perhaps some sort of semi-canon material, such as a SSM, that states this explicitly?

I found this in the Citadel:

I told George that when he changed Viserys I from a son to a brother he created an error in that Baelor's sisters did not inherit the throne after him, George replied that women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after TDWD. Something interesting and neatly explains Daena and the rest not becoming queen.

http://www.westeros....CA_July_20_232/

It just says "all men." Not "all men except in the female line" or "uncles before sisters, but not cousins before sisters" or whatever.

I think it's a mistake and they meant to say Viserys II, who was Aegon III's brother and became king after Daeron I and Baelor I died. Viserys I was Aegon III and Viserys II's grandfather.

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